Ahungry Tweaks (couple small ones - +APR balancing, remove backstab/timestop immunity from creatures)

[ahungry]

Ahungry Tweaks (couple small ones - +APR balancing, remove backstab/timestop immunity from creatures)

https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry_tweaks

I'll be adding more as I think of them while playing through the mega-mod testing of my ahungry-deletefier.

[ahungry]

Updated to include a fix for a Dark Horizons travel trigger when using EET: https://github.com/ahungry/ahungry_tweaks#fix-missing-oversight-hq-door-in-dark-horizons-on-eet

[polytope]

In the rebalancing of APR on items, does it account for some mods like SCS's improved druid shapeshifting tying attacks per round of a shapechange form to the equipped attack .itm file? I believe that's also the case with Spell Revisions and maybe even the upcoming fixpack per the discussion on "Shapeshifting inconsistencies".

[ahungry]

Currently it doesn't account for them in the POV of adding an exception clause; it's a loop over all .itm files for opcode 0x1 and tweaks it from there - adding an exclusion list or regex should be pretty easy if I had the list handy - I'm not sure what's going on with my setup lately, but despite adding SCS as one of the last steps (and a couple tweak packages after) the improved shapeshifting tokens never appear for me (they did once a year or so ago on a mostly clean install with SCS as only mod).

I'm guessing something earlier in the process is causing improved shapeshifting to fail to install for me (despite the setup-stratagems.debug log saying otherwise).

Due to the looping/inspection nature and not a hardcoded list of items to tweak, it does account for them from the POV of "yes they will also be adjusted" (which was my primary motivation for adding it - to tweak some mod added gear that was like +3 or +5 APR into a more balanced item, without working off a direct list of overrides).

Edited October 19, 2022 by ahungry

[subtledoctor]

Could also use an inclusion list, rather than an exclusion list, and only change items from the 'usual suspects' list of mods (just use a regexp checking for their modder prefixes), since there is only a handful of mods that actually do things like this, whereas the list of mods that may use opcode 1 for legitimate reasons may not be easy to discern - e.g. I have a mod that sets APR on fist weapons for a revision of Monk unarmed attacks, but I bet it wasn't on your radar.

Edited October 19, 2022 by subtledoctor

[ahungry]

Monastic Orders QDMFIST.itm from you and Aquadrizzt?  If that's the one, that's one of my favorites, but the fist never worked for me (I had to add some file adjustments to it last year to get it to play nice with 2.6EE but Aquadrizzt didn't take my change/modified file )

Now that I am targeting a specific mod via the "mods" component, it's a consideration to use that approach though vs a global rebalance - still, your reference sounds more like a conversion than an item pack/single item, so it's a good point (although the rebalance isn't a total nerf - it trades a +APR cap of 1 in exchange for thac0/dmg relative to how much +APR the item lost - for some builds (dual wielders) that can still hit 5 APR, it ends up in a net boost to stats (although I guess if one capped their APR, they'd swap items)).

Maybe I'll make 3 sub-components - apply globally, apply w/include list, and apply w/exclude list - then the user can be empowered to use as they like (although it might rub some mod authors the wrong way to see themselves on an include list of "nerfs" )

Edited October 19, 2022 by ahungry

[subtledoctor]

35 minutes ago, ahungry said:

Monastic Orders QDMFIST.itm from you and Aquadrizzt?  ... your reference sounds more like a conversion than an item pack/single item, so it's a good point (although the rebalance isn't a total nerf - it trades a +APR cap of 1 in exchange for thac0/dmg relative to how much +APR the item lost

No, I mean in Might & Guile I have a component that lowers the damage range for high level monks to more meaningful weapon-equivalent ranges (a 1d20 roll for damage is just silly - what does a 1 mean, that their pinky nail scratched you as it whooshed by? ) while increasing APR. (So sounds like the opposite of what Monastic Orders does.)

The broader point is that it is a mod that was not on your radar, which would have been fairly ruined by this mod. Who knows what else is out there? Opcode 1 is used pretty widely. An exclusion list will be inherently prone to missing items that you're not aware of, or that are created after this is published, etc.

[ahungry]

M&G Monk component does it via items, and not via the progression tables?

I had never noticed the M&G monk revamp, but that's probably because I tried out Monastic Orders in tandem with it from the get go.

Handling the things I don't know about is actually the intent of the broad approach (some mods adds a crazy item, and I didn't realize it?  I want the APR effect smoothed out/capped)

My main incentive for the tweak was how easy it was to get all my melees in team to the 5 APR cap before meeting Sarevok (and this wasn't even exclusively DH items afaict - many mod authors love the +APR bonuses).

[subtledoctor]

3 hours ago, ahungry said:

M&G Monk component does it via items, and not via the progression tables?

I don't remember? It definitely added a new item at some point, when I was distinguishing between non-magical fists and 'powered up' magical fists. It's possible it now uses the new EE2.5 opcode for that. Though it might still add an item if installed on the old engine? I really don't recall the current state of it.

3 hours ago, ahungry said:

Handling the things I don't know about is actually the intent of the broad approach (some mods adds a crazy item, and I didn't realize it?

Fair enough!

3 hours ago, ahungry said:

many mod authors love the +APR bonuses)

I know. It's such a cheap and uninspired way to make an uber weapon, and often has nothing to do with the lore behind the weapon's enchantment. I find this sort of thing to be so disappointing.

[Endarire]

Request: Separate the Dark Horizons fix into a separate mod for install order sequencing.  (I know I'm telling an install order list maintainer to assume people install things in blocks, like all tweaks mods in short succession.)

Edited October 19, 2022 by Endarire

[ahungry]

Haha - I would assume one would apply any fixes/tweaks from this mod very last in the install order (maybe I should make that assumption explicit in the readme) - that way if I add more mod specific fixes in the future, they'd all apply with the assumption they would be getting the mods into a playable state (not a state that other things should then iterate on).

Since it wouldn't make sense to install the APR tweak or immunity removers early in the install order (they need to apply after you're done adding items/creatures), I'm guessing you may be thinking it'd be nice to keep it "close" to the DH install itself.

I do prefer separate mods over mods with dual install directives myself, since those can be challenging to know what components to install before XYZ, and what components to install after XYZ.

[polytope]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:08 PM, subtledoctor said:

No, I mean in Might & Guile I have a component that lowers the damage range for high level monks to more meaningful weapon-equivalent ranges (a 1d20 roll for damage is just silly - what does a 1 mean, that their pinky nail scratched you as it whooshed by? ) while increasing APR.

It's been the case since the earliest editions that monks have quite variable damage, a large die or multiple dice. In OD&D the maximum was 4d10, in 1st edition 8d4 or 6d6 depending on  what monk (for a 17th level grandmaster). They didn't get strength bonuses on top of this.

A low minimum damage for a monks attack, comparable to a punch for an ordinary person is fine... because that's what it is after all. High damage ceilings reflect the monk's ability to kill with his knowledge of human anatomy and his practiced martial arts, a chance for the die to explode might have been better.

A more pressing concern for me is that a monk's hands are equally good at damaging humanoids, huge monsters like giants and dragons, and things made of extremely hard materials, like golems. The monk should serve a similar party role to an assassin, good versus enemy fighters and especially casters, weaker than other warriors against big things (and a bit better when actually using weapons, with the exception of mages under ProMW and some creatures immune to blunt damage like shambling mounds a monk just never chooses to use a melee weapon).

[subtledoctor]

5 hours ago, polytope said:

It's been the case since the earliest editions that monks have quite variable damage

Doesn't mean I have to like it that way

[polytope]

But you said monk hand damage was "just silly".

I'm explaining why I don't think it's silly, no more than a thief scoring quintuple damage with a backstab, it wasn't because he hit five times harder than a equivalently armed warrior, it was because he had the opportunity to cut someone's throat.

Also even for a BG2 monk most of the damage comes from strength bonuses and their Gauntlets of Crushing, are those nerfed? Because those are multiplicative with APR.

[ahungry]

@polytopenot sure if the final "nerf" question was for @subtledoctoror myself (I think SD, but I'll reply if it were towards this mod) - this mod component just aims to balance crazy outliers (weapons beyond a 1 APR bonus) - it wouldn't aim to just nerf damage in general, or monks specifically.  I don't think vanilla game has any that exceed 1 APR bonus (some may have flat APR settings like ranged weaponry, those are untouched). 

Most (perhaps not all, as SD alludes to) mod added gear that goes to 2 or higher APR bonus on a single item is just a ridiculous item 99% of the time, so this makes them more reasonable (imo).

Edited October 23, 2022 by ahungry