How important are weapon proficiency points? [Thread copied from Reddit]

[Morgoth]

Took the post from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgate/comments/9v86r7/how_important_are_weapon_proficiency_points/. I will copy the post.

Question: The thing that always makes me nervous is that some melee classes, like Fighter>Mage, can get five points, but some others, like Paladin, can only get two points. Do the three extra weapon proficiency points make a huge difference? Is it noticeable?

Answer (written by Xiathorn): Let's do the maths!

At 1 PP, i.e. the max for thieves, you're getting 1APR with no bonuses.

At 2 PP you're getting 1.5 APR with -1 THAC0 and +2 Damage.

At 5 PP you're getting 2 APR with -3 THAC0 and +5 Damage.

A non-magical Longsword is 1D8 damage. With 18/51 STR, you're getting -2 THAC0 and +3 Damage. Let's do the numbers for a level 1 'warrior' type, where it is impossible to have more than Specialised anyway. We'll assume we're hitting stuff with 6AC, as that's not unreasonable for the part of the game.

1PP : 1x 1D8 +3, 18 THAC0. 40% hit chance. On average, you will do 2.8 damage per round.

2PP : 1.5x 1D8 + 5, 17 THAC0. 45% hit chance. On average, you will do 6.075 damage per round. That's a huge difference.

Now let's look at level 9, the earliest you can get 5-pip (unless you do some dual fuckery like Fighter->Thief). At level 7, warrior types get an extra 0.5 APR. We will assume you have a +2 weapon by this point, and are hitting stuff with 2AC. We will also assume you haven't yet got 19 STR.

1PP : 1.5APR 1D8 + 5, 10 THAC0, 60% hit chance. 8.1 damage per round.

2PP : 2 APR 1D8 + 7, 9 THAC0, 65% hit chance. 14.3 damage per round.

5PP : 2.5 APR, 1D8 + 10, 7 THAC0, 75% hit chance. 26.25 damage per round.

As you can see, this is a huge jump - almost double damage. The lower the enemy AC (i.e. the better armour they have), the more pronounced this becomes. Against an enemy with -10AC, the 2PP would do 1.1 damage per round while the 5PP would do 3.5

But what happens when we hit level 13? This is where things get a bit more balanced. We will assume that you have picked up the Strength tome by now and have 19 STR, which maens -3 Thac0 and +7 damage. Let's also assume we're up to a +3 weapon now. Let's hit a -4 AC enemy.

1PP : 2APR 1D8 + 10, 5 THAC0. 55% hit chance. 15.4 damage per round.

2PP : 2.5 APR, 1D8 + 12, 4 THAC0. 60% hit chance. 24 damage per round.

5PP : 3APR, 1D8 + 15, 2 THAC0. 70% hit chance. 39.9 damage per round.

As you can see, that's still a big difference, but the gap has closed a little bit due to the better strength meaning Thac0 is less important, and 2.5/3 is bigger than 2/2.5

What if you're hitting something that's got crap armour? Let's assume a 95% hit chance (1 is always a miss).

1PP : 26.6 DPR

2PP : 38 DPR

5PP : 54.15 DPR

As you can see, even in these circumstances the 5PP will get an extra 40% damage output.

Because of the extra 0.5 APR, it scales with other bonuses in a way that other PPs (3 & 4) do not. Let's say we've got 25 Strength for shits and giggles:

1PP : 2APR 1D8 + 17 1 THAC0. 75% hit chance. 31.5 DPR.

2PP : 2.5APR 1D8 + 19, 0 THAC0. 80% hit chance. 46 DPR.

5PP : 3APR 1D8 + 22, -2 THAC0, 90% hit chance. 70.2 DPR.

Now, is that enough of a bonus? Let's explore a more real-world, very late game example. We will be using Foebane with Belm under IH, at level 21+ with critical strike. Bear in mind that this would require 5 pips in Bastard Swords, which is unlikely as most Bastard Swords suck until ToB. We will also have 22 Strength from a belt. Critical strike means every single attack is a hit, negating the Thac0 bonus from GM. It also eliminates dice rolls because they're always a critical hit.

1PP : 6APR 2D4 + 15. 276 DPR, 24HP healed. Belm hits for 80. Total of 356 DPR.

2PP : 7APR 2D4 + 17. 350 DPR, 28HP healed. Belm hits for 80. Total of 430 DPR.

5PP : 8APR 2D4 + 20. 448 DPR, 32HP healed. Belm hits for 80. Total of 528 DPR.

I cannot think of a single thing in the game that can stand a single round of a 22-Strength warrior under IH and critical strike with Belm. Proficiencies don't even matter. 356 Damage will kill anything.

TL;DR 5PP matters more in the early game, but is only accessible from level 9 onwards. Once you get to HLA, it stops being important because you can grind up anything anyway. It also makes it much harder to switch weapon types. Your Paladin will have the same number of proficiency points, but they'll be better spread. Your Paladin can therefore use more weapons depending on the situation - Holy Avenger, then Foebane, then FoA, etc.

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Morgoth

[subtledoctor]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:49 PM, Morgoth said:

(unless you do some dual fuckery like Fighter->Thief)

Neither here nor there, but this doesn't even work anymore.

[jmerry]

The dual trick for early grand mastery does still work, actually. I've run Shar-Teel with longsword grand mastery multiple times. The secret is to delay some levels so that you take thief level 9 (which opens up the ability to allocate grand mastery) at the same time as thief level 8 (which gives a proficiency point you can assign). The best showcase of that build: taking out Karoug in a single round, unaided. Backstab with the Burning Earth (at least (1d8+1+5)*4+3+2+1= 48 average damage), drink a potion of invisibility, backstab him again with the second attack. You hit on a 2 with all the stealth bonuses, and two hits for 96 expected damage beats his 66 HP and less than one round of 30 HP/round regeneration. Unless you're unlucky enough to roll a critical miss.

Oh and there are some things that can survive that Improved Haste/Critical Strike/Foebane/Belm round. ToB bosses often come with significant physical resistance. As a go-to example for serious toughness, let's try the Ravager. 534 HP, 75% physical resistance, 90% magic resistance, 100% elemental immunity. Also requires +4 weapons to hit.

So. Your Foebane attacks hit, for (2d4+5+10+prof)*2 physical damage (no bane bonus, but you do get the double damage for crits). Reduce by the resistance, and (2d4+15)*2 becomes 10.25 average damage. The LMD triggers are subject to magic resistance, so they only work a tenth of the time. Average 0.4 damage and 0.4 healing per hit. The Belm attacks are completely ineffective.

So, then, that first case of a non-proficient warrior gets 6 Foebane attacks in the CS round, for 63.9 average damage and 2.4 average healing. The second case of a warrior with specialization gets 7 Foebane attacks in the CS round for 81.55 average damage and 2.8 average healing. The third case of a warrior with grand mastery gets 8 Foebane attacks in the CS round for 105.2 average damage and 3.2 average healing. Even in the best case, that's not even a fifth of the thing's HP.

I have burst down the Ravager in a single round before. I didn't use warrior HLAs for it; I instead used two mages and their simulacra, all with 3x Horrid Wilting chain contingencies set to go off when hit. First hit the Ravager with spell triggers to lower its magic resistance, then have someone throw a fireball at my party to set off the contingencies and land a massive burst of the one damage type that enemy doesn't resist.

Oh, and those calculations in general? They're assuming that everything is vulnerable to critical hits. That's a wildly optimistic assumption; lots of enemies have crit protection, from the hobgoblins you face outside the Friendly Arm to the final boss.

[CamDawg]

19 hours ago, jmerry said:

The dual trick for early grand mastery does still work, actually.

Depends. It works in the EEs, but not in oBG.

This is always the trick folks point to when they say you can get GM in oBG without mods, but it doesn't work: the pips are restricted to thief caps after dualling, so you can never advance any weapon past one. Those four pips in whatever will just sit there, forever.

[InKal]

it is much better to have offhand weapon that can hit enemy than that can not hit but give some bonus like extra attack - offhand weapon is completely useless in that particular case and bonuses you can have from other sources usually.

there is also a mod that can upgrade belm to +4.