Some thoughts and suggestions about low-level feats for consideration

[RoyalProtector]

Comments are based on the info here: https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/subdocuments_dw/feat_doc.html

I love the idea of having feats. Anything that allows your character to be more unique and/or to make them more powerful in distinct ways without relying on items is a welcome addition. For your consideration, I'd like to comment on a few of those:

1. Blessed touch. I think for roleplaying purposes it's a cool idea, but ordinarily, I can imagine almost no one would pick it, since it is relatively easy to find a cure for this (even if we grant that the player will not save scum). So basically I'm not entirely convinced it's a solid choice, perhaps the concept of removing a curse could be expanded such that it can be applied to a few more ordinary situations. (I do enjoy though the concept of expanding the "holy powers" of paladins though). To be fair you could say something similar about Loremaster, but it can be handy, esp. in BGEE.
2. Deadly Aim/Mighty Blows. Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds a bit odd that it's only offered to fighters and not rangers, paladins, blackguards. I could even see this for rogues, especially thieves. Rogue are pretty lackluster in direct combat as it is (barring backstabs, which are not always a good option or an option at all, this problem being the worst for Shadowdancer who lack both poison and traps). Perhaps only allowing to select this feat twice for fighters would be a reasonable compromise (1 for others).
3. Slippery Mind: should probably be part of the Shadowdancer kit automatically, as in NWN, instead of the plain universal +1 save bonus.
4. Empowered casting (all): my only comment is that it's a bit unsatisfying knowing that every class can reach the maximum "power" level of all spells, which is 20, unless dual classing (and maybe triple multiclasses?). So I would probably not take this and find a different way to deal with whatever problems this feat could help with (to be honest, I don't entirely like the fact that spells cap at level 20, at least in some senses, such as duration). I wouldn't know what to do to improve this anyway...
5. Extra [kit ability]: I think this should probably be expanded to the majority of the kits, barring balance reasons. Like extra poison weapon, extra shadowstep, extra aura of despair, etc... now that would be nice.

... And also suggest perhaps some additions which I believe are fair enough. More customization is good, as long as balance is preserved (Jaheira would be proud). I believe you based some of these ideas on NWN/NWN2, so perhaps there could be a few from that list that could be added in the future after the beta phase is over. How about these, taken from those games?

1. Snakeblood: maybe 50% resistance to poison damage, +1 Saves vs Death (either or both)
2. Deflect Arrows: maybe AC bonus to missile weapons
3. Quick Shot: gain 1 attack per round with ranged weapons (is that even possible?) with a damage and/or THAC0 penalty (maybe reserved for Archers)
4. Arcane defense: gain +2 saves vs one school of magic
5. Uncanny dodge: allows high level rogues, barbarians and dwarven defenders to be immune to backstabs
6. Daylight Adaptation: removes daylight sensitivity where it applies

Would be curious to know if anyone else has any thoughts on this topic too...

Cheers

Edited January 6 by RoyalProtector

[DavidW]

This is very nice; thanks. (I'm unlikely to do content tweaks until I've got things more stable, but it's very helpful for that next stage.)

[RoyalProtector]

Yes, absolutely, that takes precedence. I am excited though for this mods tweaks, so I'll be adding more suggestions or thoughts to this thread (on the matter of feats, at least), if something else occurs to me. A couple more thoughts

1. Have you considered loosening up potion class restrictions in SCS or this mod? I wondered since I spotted that Alchemy: Rogues' Potions allows to create a Frost Giant Strength potions for rogues. It always seemed like an odd restriction to me anyway, but I'd like to know if you have a different take on it. Could be an interesting tweak. (And speaking of disadvantages of rogues... how about no access to the best Strength potions...)
2. Have you given any thought to give access to Background feats, such as the ones in NWN/NWN2 (see info at https://nwn2db.com/library/feats ) ? That is, you have the choice of selecting only one feat for your "background", that gives you a select mild boost and is given to a character only once at level 1 (or whatever level it is for their game). I can imagine though that from a development perspective, implementing this as a background trait would be annoyingly non-immersive. Here's a few feat implementations that occur to me:
   • Luck of Heroes: Universal +1 Saving Throw bonus (or maybe Luck +1)
   • Blooded: Extra 1 speed factor bonus for all weapons (originally a initiative and spot bonus check, obviously not applicable here)
   • Artist/Silver Palm: +1 of Charisma (originally they boost various dialog-based skills)
   • Corteous Magocracy: +20 Lore bonus (originally bonus to lore and spellcraft)
   • Bullheaded: +1 save vs spells and +2 saves against Enchantment magic (originally resistance to taunts and boost to will saves)
   • Mind over body: extra HP points based on your intelligence at creation (something mild, that is)...
   • Snakeblood, previously mentioned, could be here.
   • Spellcasting Prodigy: All your spells are considered 1 level higher.
   • Strong Soul: 1 save bonus to Spell, Wand and Death, plus 2 save bonus against Necromancy magic.

Cheers.

 

 

[DavidW]

(1) I think the frost giant potion just got grandfathered in from the vanilla Alchemy HLA, which has a rogue-only Frost Giant Strength potion. Other than that I didn't give it a lot of thought - just following 2nd edition AD&D norms.

(2) The problems here are basically technical, unfortunately. The HLA screen is not usable during character creation and it is extremely difficult to transmit information from the character-generation screen to the main character except through the 'official' channels. I do it with subraces (basically by hiding a signal in the proficiency system) but it is pretty complicated and would get exponentially more so if more signals were added. That's the reason feats begin at level 2 - absent technical constraints I'd probably have given 1 feat at first level and then one every 3 levels thereafter.

[RoyalProtector]

Ah well, I figured background feats would be rather messy to implement. Understandable. Anyhow, maybe those feats can be implemented anyway like regular feats. Or perhaps only available at level 2, which is the next best thing, I suppose.

[Nox]

Feats are an interesting idea to me. And i like that you removed 'utility' feats there, because these, however interesting they otherwise may be, are never chosen. Even by me. There is a power gamer that sleeps in every last one of us :). In NWN2, i would always chose things like 'luck of heroes' because background feats are mere technicalities and do not serve any other purpose, which is unfortunate. Larian solved this in DOS by separating combat abilities from civil abilities, allowing to chose one of both. That was the best way to handle it. But beyond the technical nightmare it would be to implement those, it wouldn't make sense if only the PC had one. For consistency sake, you would need to give one to every recruitable NPC in game, even introduced by mods. If you don't, for me at least, it would become distracting and scream 'this comes from a mod'. This is not the best way to make your character feel special, in my opinion. Which is the reason why i love the Bhaal powers so much. They are rooted in your character's story. Even silly perks you get in Fallout 1 and 2 (like the one you got for shoveling crap) do the job ok. Background feats should come with a background story. A background feat that is not tied to your background story is devoid of meaning and only serves the purpose of powergaming. And in this case, to me, it ends up feeling more like a cheat, and less like a meaningful addition.

I always create a backstory and write it in game when i can. In Pillars of Eternity, i even write the diary of my character in the in-game journal. It ends up thick as a book by the end. I would rather have a lore encyclopedia of the FR in a menu for background creation purpose than feats not related to who my character is.

Again, this is merely my own perspective. BG lacks roleplay opportunities.

Edited January 7 by Nox

[RoyalProtector]

2 hours ago, Nox said:

it wouldn't make sense if only the PC had one

I don't have that much of a problem with that myself, since in BG saga, the Bhaalspawn PC is a special character destined in one way or another for greatness and power. Regardless, it could be implemented in some ways as long as we have a way of leveling up recruitable character from 0 to customize them (again, technical reasons). And none of them are going to break the game, they are mild so that doesn't happen. Generally speaking I don't like the concept of "meta" builds; even if I'm not "cornered" to use it, balance is always a wise approach in videogames.

Recruitable characters also have, occasionally things that are impossible for PC and gives them a huge advantage. For example, Har'Dalis immediately gets 2 pips in Long Swords and Short Swords when you add a proficiency point, and blades cannot do that in the game. The reason in his case is that he is, by his own words (paraphrasing) "the best swordsman second only to Drizzt". That's his background, and he will always be better than a PC Blade in that sense.

Or the case of Sarevok. Because of his dark past, excellent ability, heritage and training as a Deathdealer of Bhaal, he can chunk almost any enemy in one hit, doing absurd (200 + weapon damage) amounts of damage. And you can't get that as a PC Bhaalspawn. Again, background reasons...

I also do things similar to what you're talking about: I create custom biographies to all my Bhaalspawn in my playthroughs. That for me would be reason enough to pick a "Background feat" that seems appropriate (or none, if that is the case instead). I can justify it in various ways, that's the nice thing about roleplaying.

2 hours ago, Nox said:

i would always chose things like 'luck of heroes' because background feats are mere technicalities and do not serve any other purpose, which is unfortunate.

Not entirely, actually. Other than giving you small skill boosts (which is the aim for the most part as far as I'm concerned...), the Flirt background also gave you different prompts with a few characters in the prologue. But yeah, they could have extended that much more.

 

Edited January 7 by RoyalProtector

[mickabouille]

Well charname's background is mostly fixed... The age range an't be that wide and they spent all the life (except as an infant IIRC).

So, small variations as to how they spent their life there (that may not even account for all available classes/kits, didn't check).

But that's for BG. On the other hand, IWD PCs are far more of a blank slate.

[RoyalProtector]

Yeah, and none of these feats assume or imply any sort of background that could conflict with it. Both the background and the advantage associated are supposed to be fairly mild. The game sort of gives you "historic" background depending on your class, as well, and you might as well customize that however you please. You're still the Bhaalspawn destined for greatness that Gorion is trying to protect, etcetera.

But in any event I wasn't even using "background" in that strict sense. I was rather thinking about it as a natural talent or trait that you happen to have from the start, and hence it's part of your "background" as a person (which is the only meaning those feats I mentioned have in NWN/NWN2). You can justify it to your heart's content through roleplaying.

Edited January 7 by RoyalProtector
I wrote "fixed" when I meant to type "mild"

[Nox]

2 hours ago, RoyalProtector said:

Again, background reasons..

Yes, background reasons. If you read what i wrote again, you should hopefully see that this was indeed my whole point. Background reasons.

Quote

That for me would be reason enough to pick a "Background feat" that seems appropriate

Yes. Again, maybe that is only me, but i find it much more sensical to have a background that explains how my character is "afraid of spiders" than one that tries to explain how it gets "+1 to all saves". Explaining by a background this "+1 to all saves" ends up most of the time being not roleplaying, but mere metagaming.

I have a friend who, even on PC RPGs, first writes his backgrounds, and then rolls his character, including ability scores and class. He rolls his characters 100% depending on the background he wrote, making the rolls extremely unoptimized (fighter with 8 strenght and 18 int? check). Later on, he levels up depending on the kind of life his character has. The end result is that his characters are generally useless in combat, jacks of all trades, masters of none. They can cook and play an instrument, but oftentimes, they can't even hold a sword by the right end. But THIS is roleplay. He writes the background and THEN choses the feats. He doesn't write a background to try and explain why the character has these convenient feats. In my case, i do a mix of both. I never have a character that is too special, except if something requires it (like when i was asked by a NWN2 staff to create a character to take over a faction that lacked a PC leader. Only time ever i played a nonsensical class like "Divine chosen" or whatever).

Again, there is nothing wrong with metagaming things if you like it: this is a single player game. And we most likely all have played it so much already that playing it normally simply feels weird. As i said, this was merely my own perspective.

2 hours ago, mickabouille said:

Well charname's background is mostly fixed... The age range an't be that wide and they spent all the life (except as an infant IIRC).

So, small variations as to how they spent their life there (that may not even account for all available classes/kits, didn't check).

But that's for BG. On the other hand, IWD PCs are far more of a blank slate.

My thoughts exactly. This is where my desire to play a fighter dual-classed into Cleric of Mystra stems from. Gorion is a mage after all. It wouldn"'t be weird to have the PC becoming a priest of Mystra or Oghma (because Candlekeep). Actually, i was a tad bit disappointed to not see a dual-class for fighter/priest of Mystra in this mod . But hey, can't have everything.

Edited January 7 by Nox

[RoyalProtector]

1 hour ago, Nox said:

Yes, background reasons.

In BG your background is "Gorion's Ward". The rest are optional details that the game fills out for you depending on your class, and whatever you want to add to the mix. Sarevok's Background is Deathdealer of Bhaal, along with a story for the most part set in stone. Your charname's story is not set in stone, at least not the details.

1 hour ago, Nox said:

Yes. Again, maybe that is only me, but i find it much more sensical to have a background that explains how my character is "afraid of spiders" than one that tries to explain how it gets "+1 to all saves". Explaining by a background this "+1 to all saves" ends up most of the time being not roleplaying, but mere metagaming.

I can think of many ways to justify it. You can make up a story about how your infancy was faced with so many challenges because this and that, which increased your resilience and decisiveness (for example), and then select that feat if you think it fits that story. This mod (or any generic mod) is not going to be able to add feats for things that specific. If I wanted to make a charname that is afraid of spiders, I would create a spell that makes them have a chance of becoming scared when close to spiders (for example).

You can even create a biography around powergaming and meta builds. Why not? Think about what type of background would do so. Or, as you pointed out, create a story and then select what fits, regardless of merits. I don't ever create "weak" characters myself (or rather characters without strong points), but I also don't like doing things like maxing out every stat and whatnot, I like balance, subtle power increases over time. This is only me, and I am not in any way criticizing other ways of playing.

But this is completely unrelated to what I meant by background feats anyway. I had no inclination whatsoever to link it to roleplaying, which is something personal. The feats are meant to be advantageous in some mutually exclusive way, and nothing more.

None of the referenced feats that I mentioned tie to any actual historic background, they are simply special feats that are part of your character and can only be selected once. And this mod as any other general feat mod should likely be "background" agnostic.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "background", but it's the word they used in NWN2 for better or worse...

Edited January 7 by RoyalProtector

[Nox]

1 hour ago, RoyalProtector said:

I can think of many ways to justify it.

Yes, you can. I mean, i can do it, too. But that was not my point . The point was: normally speaking, i would rather choose fitting feats after having determined my background, than determine my background after choosing feats in order to somewhat justify the meta choices i made. I am not saying you should do things this way or another. This is my own perspective. And i can understand meta when you play the game for the umpteenth time.

Ultimately, you introduce the idea of feats meant for a practical aspect of gameplay. Meant to influence numbers and give more stuff to pick from when building a character. I agree with that. But in my case, i have a hard time dissociating "background feats" and "background story" and believe there is a better way to introduce your idea. This is all.

Edited January 7 by Nox

[RoyalProtector]

Yeah, to each his own. This post was just to discuss ToF feat system, particular feats and possible new feat ideas so let's leave it at that. As I said before, I used the concept of background feats in the exact same way as NWN2, completely disassociated from roleplaying elements. I do agree that the more actual background is intertwined with it, the better and the more immersive it is, though no mod is likely to change that in these games.

Edited January 7 by RoyalProtector

[DavidW]

Leaving aside the (very severe) technical problems with implementing an on-creation feat, it's not clear to me that character creation really needs more options. You have dozens or hundreds of kits to choose from, plus ability scores, plus proficiencies, plus races and subraces... Characters in AD&D have a bewildering range of options to start with and then very few after - hence the feat system. It's true that some second-level feats could be designated as 'background' but I'm not sure it would really add much - they're not really background, since you select them after already starting to gain levels and developing your foreground story.

[RoyalProtector]

Yes, I do agree. Ideally they would be dealt with outright much like weapon proficiencies in the character creation, but alas... Conceptually in NWN2 they weren't really tied to background, it's just the word they used for feats only selectable at character creation time. That made them somewhat "special" and injected yet another way to push your character in a slightly different direction, but yeah, I do agree with your overall point; and your mod does indeed offer a ton of options.

Well, maybe some of them can be added in some capacity as any other feat to select from in the future, at your discretion.

Edited January 7 by RoyalProtector