CamDawg Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 c6elf1.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral c6elhan.cre - Elhan - originally Lawful Neutral c6elven2.cre - Elven War Guard - originally Lawful Neutral c6elvenw.cre - Elven War Guard - originally Lawful Neutral c6god.cre - Elven God - originally Lawful Neutral c6kngt1.cre - Morning Knight - originally True Neutral chgood04.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral chgood05.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral cupris1.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral cupris2.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral daelf.cre - Elven Mage - originally True Neutral daelf2.cre - Elven Mage - originally True Neutral dreself1.cre - Elf Male - originally True Neutral dreself2.cre - Elf Female - originally True Neutral dreself3.cre - Elf Male - originally True Neutral dreself4.cre - Elf Female - originally True Neutral dreself5.cre - Elf Male - originally True Neutral dreself6.cre - Elf Female - originally True Neutral dreself7.cre - Elf Male - originally True Neutral hellgen.cre - Enslaved Genie - originally Lawful Evil jarev4.cre - Harper - originally Neutral Evil m05elf1.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral m05elf2.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral m05spir1.cre - Elven Spirit - originally Lawful Neutral m05spir2.cre - Elven Spirit - originally Lawful Neutral nevaziah.cre - Nevaziah - originally Chaotic Evil pirmur09.cre - Golin - originally NONE sarelf01.cre - Elven Man - originally Lawful Neutral sarelf02.cre - Elven Man - originally Lawful Neutral sarelf03.cre - Elven Woman - originally Lawful Neutral sarelf04.cre - Elven Woman - originally Lawful Neutral sarelf05.cre - Elf - originally Lawful Neutral sarelf06.cre - Elf - originally Lawful Neutral suavatar.cre - Avatar of Rillifane - originally Lawful Neutral sudead01.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral sudead02.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral sudead03.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral sudemin.cre - Priestess Demin - originally Lawful Evil suelf1.cre - Elf - originally Lawful Neutral suelf10.cre - Reirra - originally True Neutral suelf12.cre - Captain Aduo'on - originally Lawful Neutral suelf13.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelf2.cre - Elf - originally Lawful Neutral suelf3.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelf6.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelf7.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelf8.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw1.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw10.cre - Elven Battle Mage - originally True Neutral suelfw11.cre - Elven Battle Mage - originally True Neutral suelfw12.cre - Elven Battle Mage - originally True Neutral suelfw13.cre - Elven Archer - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw14.cre - Elven Archer - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw15.cre - Elven Archer - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw2.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw3.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw4.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw5.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw6.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw7.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw8.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suelfw9.cre - Elven Battle Mage - originally True Neutral suelhan.cre - Elhan - originally Lawful Neutral suelleg1.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suendel1.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suendel2.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suendel3.cre - Elf Male - originally Lawful Neutral suendel4.cre - Elf Female - originally Lawful Neutral suendel5.cre - Elf - originally Lawful Neutral suendel6.cre - Elf - originally Lawful Neutral suendel7.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral suendel8.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral sumoon.cre - Elven Warrior - originally Lawful Neutral udelf01.cre - War Elf - originally Lawful Neutral udelf02.cre - War Elf - originally Lawful Neutral udelf03.cre - War Elf - originally Lawful Neutral udelf04.cre - War Elf - originally Neutral Evil udelf05.cre - War Elf - originally NONE udvith.cre - Vithal - originally Lawful Evil warsage.cre - Elven War Sage - originally Lawful Neutral Edit: Also check the alignment overview thread. Link to comment
Gorilym Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 udvith.cre - Vithal - originally Lawful Evil What is the reasoning behind this change? I don't necessarily think LE is right for him, but I certainly don't see him as an obvious CG either. Link to comment
devSin Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 c6god, c6kngt1 are unused. We can save space by cutting out dreself (Jon at the tree Ellesime dream) and suendel (your reward is getting to play ToB! Congratulations, <CHARNAME>!) creatures. None can ever be interacted with in any fashion. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 13, 2007 Author Share Posted January 13, 2007 Wow, not much discussion here--mainly because these seem to be a load of elf changes. Per devSin, c6god and c6kngt1 are dropped as unused, otherwise the list is unchanged (Vithal discussed below). udvith.cre - Vithal - originally Lawful Evil What is the reasoning behind this change? I don't necessarily think LE is right for him, but I certainly don't see him as an obvious CG either. Vithal is difficult. He deals fairly with the party, is very polite and deferential, and is also willing to up the party's share of rewards if the player objects. Kish, via Oversight, frowns strongly on betraying Vithal--I believe Oversight alters his class to innocent so that you incur a rep penalty for killing him (no, Fixpack doesn't do this). In the end, I think CN or CG is the best fit, though I'll admit it's mainly through a process of elimination. He's not evil (LE, NE, CE), he's not a believer in balance (TN). He's out on his own and interested in the artifacts for his own interest, so I don't like LN or LG either. This leaves CN, CG, and NG. Similar to evil, his actions don't particularly strike me as good, which would leave CN--however, he gives his word and sticks to it, decidedly non-CN behavior. That's my thinking here at least. It's certainly worth more discussion, though I'm content to leave him as CG for v2. Link to comment
Nythrun Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Vithal regrets not having had a chance to meet the mad necromancer-lich who made a hat out of the bones of his parents, and would rather attempt to murder <CHARNAME> than either admit that this whole enterprise is about fetching the Skull of Death, or just dimension door away with his loot when threatened (which he can demonstrably do). I'd thought Lawful Evil was the best choice here - pleasant, honorable, and not about to donate his new toy to the "Give Evil Artifacts to Athkatla Orphans" fund. His behavior isn't inconsistent with Lawful Evil, and I think it's naive to assume that just because the friends of Reijack Hidesman don't try to rip you off, they must be good people. Doubly so here for Vithal. Nevaziah is a tougher one, but I think I'll be leaving him alone too. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 15, 2007 Author Share Posted January 15, 2007 As I said, I'm not terribly comfortable with Vithal because we have to extrapolate. Vithal regrets not having had a chance to meet the mad necromancer-lich who made a hat out of the bones of his parents, and would rather attempt to murder than either admit that this whole enterprise is about fetching the Skull of Death, or just dimension door away with his loot when threatened (which he can demonstrably do). Err, huh? Unless I'm missing some lines of dialogue somewhere, Vithal gives every indication that he's treasure hunting, not on a quest for revenge (bone hats or no). I'd thought Lawful Evil was the best choice here - pleasant, honorable, and not about to donate his new toy to the "Give Evil Artifacts to Athkatla Orphans" fund. His behavior isn't inconsistent with Lawful Evil, and I think it's naive to assume that just because the friends of Reijack Hidesman don't try to rip you off, they must be good people. Doubly so here for Vithal. Excelent points here. Myself, I don't weight the fight/flight decision all that much particularly when he only goes hostile after a) being threatened, b) giving fair warning, or c) both. I'd love to hear some more viewpoints here. Nevaziah is a tougher one, but I think I'll be leaving him alone too. Agreed, I don't think we should be changing him. Link to comment
Nythrun Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 Err, huh? Unless I'm missing some lines of dialogue somewhere, Vithal gives every indication that he's treasure hunting, not on a quest for revenge (bone hats or no). I'm not saying Vithal's out for revenge He does say that he'd be interested in knowing the mage who cached these items and that mage happens to have been an insane necromancer lich prone to acts out of a Thomas Harris novel. He's also not sharing that part - there just isn't a dialogue option to ask "Um, what did we just help you do?" - you have to kill him to find out that he's interested in some bad mojo and he's keeping the baddest parts for himself. He also lets slip that he's angered someone in pursuit of his prize. So while it's certainly possible that he was an innocent randomly imprisoned by some random archmage who was coincidentally passing by and thought it would be funny to reach out and touch someone, and that he has all kinds of specific information about the location and contents and defences of this little trove but no idea of its ultimate souce, it's also possible that Bioware has just set him up to play you - hence lawful evil. That's all I meant Link to comment
devSin Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 So by your logic, Brennan Risling is the Sandthief? I doubt the designer even payed attention to the item descriptions when writing the encounter. In any case, I declare "No Consensus." Off to optional fixes. Link to comment
Nythrun Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 N'Ashtar Nikadeemus != Vithal. N'Ashtar Nikadeemus nattily dresses in the remains of N'Ashtar Nikadeemus's parents. And Vithal is one of those sad persons who write fan letters to serial killers. He doesn't know the old lich, but he'd sure like to go out for a drink with the lich and maybe twirl mustachios together I won't assert that the author of this quest bore the description in mind, no. But as Eco says, "The text exists, and generates its own interpretations." It's less important to know what the devs were thinking (we can't know, and you don't interact with that in game) than it is to know if their results are coherant. I have a penulterior motive, yeah - making Vithal CG spoils a dialogue I've written with another NPC, who cops wise to Vithal's cockamamie story and expects a <CHARNAME> who's not thick between the ears to do the same. I don't want to have revert more elements of Fixpack, even though I might, after months of effort, be able to devise some three mighty lines of code that does so But I also think there are some cases in BG2 where you have a choice, and neither choice is particularly good, and it's not even clear which is the lesser of two evils. Hmm, vampire matron who preys mostly on the criminal underworld, or the don of organized crime in a metropolis? WWBBD? I like these moral dilemmas and don't want them denatured, even when they're this tenuous. Off to accesorize with a bag Hannibal Lector made out of my uncle's stomach and pumps made out of my third cousin twice removed's goiter! It's okay, though, I'm really a sweet person once you get to know me. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 I don't want to have revert more elements of Fixpack, even though I might, after months of effort, be able to devise some three mighty lines of code that does so Oh, now you're just showing off. A lot of this seems to stem over whether or not Vithal actually knows what he's going to find in the portals or whether it's a fishing expedition. If he does know, I think Nythrun's interpretation is not only plausible, but likely, and I think the original alignment fits better. I've always gotten the impression that he knows there's some loot to be had but doesn't know what it is. I felt his 'I wish I knew the mage' comment always struck me more as a reaction to what he's found, rather than a confirmation of finding what he's expected. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 No more discussion of Vithal? C'mon, there's so much more we can discuss here. For now, he's off to OBC. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 Cam: Vithal, the mage imprisoned in the Underdark that wants to raid the elemental portals, is LE. A lot of folks think there's nothing evil in any of his actions and argue for a neutral or even a good alignment here. David Gaider: Why? Just because he's evil he has to act evil all the time? Link to comment
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