Need opinions on a bard kit

[meat axe]

Hey all.

 

I'm thinking of creating a new kit for BGII (or attempting to create one, since the extent of my modding so far has been to create a katana which was almost exactly the same as Dak'kon's zerth blade, only it gave priest spells instead of mage) and wanted people's opinions about it, since I don't want to make one too overpowered or extremely underpowered.

 

I've always been a fan of the Red Dragon Disciple prestige class in NWN HotU, although i've never actually finished playing any of the NWN games. The stories just aren't as enthralling as BG. Anyway, getting off track. Basically, it would be a kit for a bard (since sorcerers can't be kitted), using more or less the same level abilities as the RDD from NWN. (A description of that can be found here: Bioware's Red Dragon Disciple page).

 

I'm thinking that the specific skills for the disciple wouldn't begin until level 5 or 6 with the AC bonus, the bard song wouldn't increase with levels, and the kit would be a shapeshifter instead of being permanently changed to a half red dragon at level 10 (or level 16 in the case of this kit). Also, the bonus stats wouldn't be applied to the character, they would be applied to the dragon form. Disadvantages i've come up with so far are the bard song not improving, and the character can't transform in cities (I'm thinking of maybe making it so that he can transform anywhere, but in cities he starts getting hunted by dragon slayers or something if he reveals his dragon form). Also, I was thinking that maybe there should be a quest added to access the dragon form, similar to how the slayer form is unlocked in SoA, but i want the kit to be available in tutu as well as BG2, and I don't know how to manage that aspect.

 

Anyway, sorry bout the long post. Probably could have been made shorter without my rambling, but there you have it. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[BigRob]

One of the things that scales badly between 2nd and 3rd edition are stat bonuses. +8 strength at 16th level is pretty special, even if the character doesn't start with good strength.

 

I think in general the powers are OK, but it might be an idea to space them out a lot more (say fire resistance) so that the character gains things right up to 20th level or a little beyond. The final breath weapon should certainly be kept for higher levels and damage on the rest spread a little more (say progress in d6's for some levels).

 

 

If you are going to balance these powers out though, I think you may need to either restrict armour completely, and/or remove (or badly cripple) the bard's casting ability. One of these beasts with a -10AC, fireballs and Tenser's Transformation is going to be unstoppable.

[Guest Guest]

One of the things that scales badly between 2nd and 3rd edition are stat bonuses. +8 strength at 16th level is pretty special, even if the character doesn't start with good strength.

 

I think in general the powers are OK, but it might be an idea to space them out a lot more (say fire resistance) so that the character gains things right up to 20th level or a little beyond. The final breath weapon should certainly be kept for higher levels and damage on the rest spread a little more (say progress in d6's for some levels).

 

 

If you are going to balance these powers out though, I think you may need to either restrict armour completely, and/or remove (or badly cripple) the bard's casting ability. One of these beasts with a -10AC, fireballs and Tenser's Transformation is going to be unstoppable.

 

Hahah didn't even think of spells and the like that could increase the AC on top of the bonus for levels... I never really used tenser's transformation, since the only people who ever needed it i always kept at the back using ranged weapons. I don't really want to cripple the bard's casting ability, since i always like using magic, so i'm gonna have to restrict armour or something.

 

Also, i'd have to lessen the amount of bonus stats on levels, or spread them out more, along with the fire resistence. Looks like I'm gonna have to do some thinking, which is bad cause i'm sposed to be on holidays, letting my brain rot. Ahh well, maybe it needs to be taken out for a spin around the block.

[meat axe]

Sorry, that was me above. Didn't realise i was using internet explorer instead of firefox. Stupid hotmail not opening in firefox.

[BigRob]

Total removal of any armour from the kit would certainly be a good start, and it might also be an idea to restrict certain other items from the character as well to help balance out the abilities if they're all going to be staying.

 

Also, i'd have to lessen the amount of bonus stats on levels, or spread them out more, along with the fire resistence. Looks like I'm gonna have to do some thinking, which is bad cause i'm sposed to be on holidays, letting my brain rot. Ahh well, maybe it needs to be taken out for a spin around the block.

 

Making someting you think loks good and then running a little play testing is probably the best way to see if the kit is heavily overpowered. If the character can start badly stat-wise and still thrash things that a more min/maxed character has trouble coping with, you know you'll need to drop certain things.

[berelinde]

One good place to start would be looking at existing classes with similar abilities.

 

Dragon breath: available to mages as an HLA. OK, then make it an HLA.

 

Mages: can do amazing things with magic, but can wear *no* armor, and have poor combat ability. And at high levels, they're still the most dangerous foes in the game.

 

Don't think that using bardsong to balance special powers is on par. If it were 5 times as powerful, it would not balance having a creature that can shape-change into a half-red dragon.

 

Sheena, a half-red dragon NPC, took a lot of heat about balance. Her forum was full of discussion on the subject, but I haven't been there in ages, so I don't know if it's been archived.

 

Another thing to consider is that no matter how well done a mod is, people will remember the one thing about it that is not as appealing as the rest. Unavoidable. Should you let that stop you? Of course not! But you might feel better later if you try to figure out what that one thing is *now* and prepare for the inevitable.

 

Good luck!

[Wynne]

Sheena, a half-red dragon NPC, took a lot of heat about balance. Her forum was full of discussion on the subject, but I haven't been there in ages, so I don't know if it's been archived.

 

Half-red? *finds her brain trying to figure out whether dragons have sex... smacks herself to avoid such freaky thoughts*

 

Er... ahem... anyway, balance... maybe in the red dragon form, one has very few hit points and is super-vulnerable to ice?

[berelinde]

Red dragons can polymorph into human form

 

But they're still red dragons.

[meat axe]

Well, I'm normally quick to make quips about relations with lizards, but first i have to write this down before i forget it.

 

Well, i was thinking, originally i was gonna have the half-dragon form just use the weapon that the player is wielding when he transforms. But maybe it would be better for the dragon to have it's own claws or something, and they start off as +1 and slowly build up to be +whatever-would-be-good-for-a-maximum. The only problem with this is that the half-dragon sprite that I would use (same as Sheena's, since it's the only one I know about apart from NWN sprites, which i doubt would work) has a sword in its hand. Now i'm wondering is it hard to create sprites for BG2? is it possible? (at this point i'm going to remind everyone on how little i know of modding...)

 

Er... ahem... anyway, balance... maybe in the red dragon form, one has very few hit points and is super-vulnerable to ice?

 

Yeah, strangely enough I was thinking of vulnerability to ice earlier before checking this forum. Coincidence?? I think very probably. But you know what they say...

 

One good place to start would be looking at existing classes with similar abilities.

 

Dragon breath: available to mages as an HLA. OK, then make it an HLA.

 

Mages: can do amazing things with magic, but can wear *no* armor, and have poor combat ability. And at high levels, they're still the most dangerous foes in the game.

 

Hmm... the HLA thing is appealing, but a bard doesn't get any till 24th level, so maybe i should make the half-dragon have like a "dragon whistle", which can only affect one person until HLA where they can get their dragon breath.

 

Also, i think i would restrict the kit from wearing armour... though i would hate to see the bardic chain go to waste... but i can live with that.

 

Anyway, that's enough for tonight. If any of the stuff i just wrote made no sense, blame it on lack of sleep... i know i will be.

[Wynne]

Red dragons can polymorph into human form

 

But they're still red dragons.

 

Ohhh. That makes sense. But.. how do they have full dragons? Humans don't lay eggs, although as you said they're still dragons in human form, so if they did do it that way I guess maybe their physiology would be sorta different anyhow but they'd probably be really big but if they were in dragon form they're so lumbering and they don't seem to have the relative parts and... I'm... so confused.

 

Yeah, strangely enough I was thinking of vulnerability to ice earlier before checking this forum. Coincidence?? I think very probably. But you know what they say...

 

That if you yell insults at cheese long enough, it begins to curdle, like plants wither? Wait... you meant great minds think alike, didn't you? Never mind me.

 

*is in a very silly mood and probably should go to sleep now, too* Nine and a half hours of night shift will do this to me.

[Miloch]

Now i'm wondering is it hard to create sprites for BG2? is it possible?

Yes... though creating one from scratch would probably be a great deal of work... you'd have to do all the various angles, though there's software to help with that too. If all you want to do is remove a weapon from an existing sprite's hand (claw?), that would be significantly easier.

i want the kit to be available in tutu as well as BG2, and I don't know how to manage that aspect.

The vast majority of BG2 kits I've tested are also compatible with Tutu (being as how they use the same engine). Whether they're playable is another question, so you would just need to keep low-level balance in mind.

[BigRob]

For making sprites, there's already various almost human sized creatures with bat wings from BG2 and IWD2, it might make it easy to steal these and bolt them on to the existing bard animation.

 

 

 

Ohhh. That makes sense. But.. how do they have full dragons? Humans don't lay eggs, although as you said they're still dragons in human form, so if they did do it that way I guess maybe their physiology would be sorta different anyhow but they'd probably be really big but if they were in dragon form they're so lumbering and they don't seem to have the relative parts and... I'm... so confused.

 

Dragons are apparently a lot more like mammals than reptiles in that regard.

[meat axe]

Well, I've almost finished a preliminary version of the kit description, but there's just a couple of questions about HLAs and the like. I've decided that for most of the game, the RDD will have dragon breath equivalent to the fireball spell. But later, the player can choose HLAs to improve the damage and area of affect. Now, for my questions.

 

Is it possible to modify the levels you can choose certain HLAs? Mainly, this is to limit the player from choosing this early and be able to put armour on the dragon. If this isn't possible, it shouldn't be hard to space out the items, should it? Have one ability for wearing armour up to studded leather, then have a second one for wearing up to splint mail, then the third for wearing the rest of the armours.

 

Secondly, would it be possible to override the affects of the "wear multiple protection items" component of mods for just this kit? I want to make it so that the player will still get the other bonuses, such as extra saving throws, but not the armour class, even if they have the component installed.

 

I think that's all the questions i have for the moment. I'm sure i had more last night, but they seem to have slipped my mind.

 

EDIT: Okay, just remembered a question I had. I plan to make this kit available to elves. I don't really see the reason behind not letting elf characters play as a bard anyway. But since the kit gains resistance to sleep, and the elf is already immune to sleep, is there a way to check that if the character already has 100% resistance, that they don't gain any more? I'm not sure if this really applies to sleep, since I don't think it would make much difference if you went over 100%.

[BigRob]

Is it possible to modify the levels you can choose certain HLAs? Mainly, this is to limit the player from choosing this early and be able to put armour on the dragon. If this isn't possible, it shouldn't be hard to space out the items, should it? Have one ability for wearing armour up to studded leather, then have a second one for wearing up to splint mail, then the third for wearing the rest of the armours.

 

 

Since it is possible to make one HLA a prerequisite for another, adding level as a restriction in there should be possible. A more experienced coder would know for sure though.

 

Secondly, would it be possible to override the affects of the "wear multiple protection items" component of mods for just this kit? I want to make it so that the player will still get the other bonuses, such as extra saving throws, but not the armour class, even if they have the component installed.

 

I'm fairly sure that this is the way it works now. I do know that at least one property of the multiple items isn't cumulative, and I'm fairly sure its the AC.

[meat axe]

Okay, here is the preliminary kit description. Any comments or suggestions would be much appreciated.

 

Red Dragon Disciple

 

It is rumored that the magical powers of sorcerers and bards are somehow connected to the presence of dragon blood in their family tree. Red Dragon Disciples are sorcerers, and sometimes bards, who use their magical power as a catalyst to ignite their red dragon blood, realizing its fullest potential. They prefer a life of exploration to a cloistered existence. Already adept at magic, many pursue adventure, especially if it furthers their goal of finding out more about their draconic heritage. They often feel drawn to areas known to harbor

dragons.

 

Advantages

 

Draconic Armour: Bonus +2 to armour class.

Draconic Resistance: +12% Resistance to Sleep at levels 2, 5, 9, 14 and 20. +12% Resistance to Paralysis at levels 3, 6, 10, 15 and 21. +12% Resistance to Fire at levels 4, 7, 11, 16 and 22.

Draconic Form: may shapeshift into a half-red dragon at level 13.

Breath Weapon I: at level 14, can use the breath weapon of a red dragon once per day, while in dragon form, doing 1d6 points of damage to everyone within a 20 foot radius. Opponents may save vs breath for half damage.

Draconic Ability Scores: gains +1 to Strength while in dragon form at levels 15, 19 and 24. Gains +1 to Constitution while in dragon form at levels 22, and 24. Gains +1 to Intelligence while in dragon form at level 24. Gains +1 to Charisma at level 24.

 

Disadvantages

 

Bard song does not improve with levels.

May not shapeshift in towns.

May not wear armour, bracers, or helmets (other than ioun stones).

May not use shields or dual wield.

May not wear multiple magical protection items. This only applies if this mod component has been installed.

 

High Level Abilities

 

Uses bard pool.

Breath Weapon II: upgrades Breath Weapon, doing 2d10 points of damage to everyone within a 20 foot radius. Opponents may save vs Breath for half damage.

Breath Weapon III (Requires Breath Weapon II): upgrades Breath Weapon, doing 10d10 points of damage to everyone within a 25 foot radius. Opponents may save vs breath for half damage. Party members only take half damage.

Breath Weapon IV (Requires Breath Weapon III): upgrades Breath Weapon, doing 20d10 points of damage to everyone within a 30 foot radius. Also knocks opponents off their feet and away from the half-dragon. Opponents may save vs breath for half damage. This will not harm party members.

Improved Draconic Ability Scores (Strength): +1 to Strength while in dragon form.

Improved Draconic Ability Scores (Constitution): +1 to Constitution while in dragon form.

Improved Draconic Ability Scores (Intelligence): +1 to Intelligence while in dragon form.

Improved Draconic Ability Scores (Charisma): +1 to Charisma.