THAC0 and saves

[Miloch]

Anyone know where I can get a reference for the THAC0 for the various classes (and perhaps saving throws too)? The BG2 Tweak Pack makes reference to "un-nerfed THAC0 tables" but doesn't say what they actually are. Also I don't think they're in either the BG1 or BG2 manuals unless I missed something. I would prefer not to have to dig out a rotting book for this one thing (or procure one I don't own) if it's even in there.

[Miloch]

Well I did find this but I think it's from 1st edition. Anyone know if it differs greatly from 2nd edition and/or BG1/2?

[BigRob]

Unfortunately, that table does vary a lot from the standard 2nd Edition one.

 

 

According to my table:

 

Priests drop 2 points of THAC0 every three levels (So 20 at 1st, 18 at 4th, 16 at 7th and so on)

 

Rogues drop 1 point of THAC0 every 2 levels (So 20 at 1st, 19 at 3rd, 18 at 5th and so on)

 

Warriors drop 1 point of THAC0 every level (starting at 20 like everyone else).

 

Mages drop 1 point of THAC0 every three levels (So 20 at 1st, 19 at 4th, 18 at 7th and so on).

 

 

 

Saving throws are a bit more complicated... it might be worth doing up a table if people need it for reference.

[Miloch]

Saving throws are a bit more complicated... it might be worth doing up a table if people need it for reference.

That'd be great. Where would one get the info to do such a table (unless you have it and are offering to do it )?

[BigRob]

The info would be contained in a 2nd edition DMG or PHB. I'll see about sitting down tonight to do the table.

[Miloch]

I'll see about sitting down tonight to do the table.

Cool. I'll probably get around to ordering the 2e books since they are cheap used on Amazon, but the reference in the meantime would be great. All I have are the 1st edition books, and I think I even lost those particular ones after a campaign gone horribly wrong years ago (also known as "when make-believe fighting and stealing turn into real fighting and stealing").

[berelinde]

Don't know if the game actually follows the 2E THACO and saving throw tables, though. I always install the "un-nerf THACO and saving throws" component of whatever mod offers it, don't reallly remember which one, right now though, so it must alter it somewhat.

[Rabain]

I found this a while back while surfing around:

 

http://www.geocities.com/gbogenbroom/Essential_tables.doc

 

It contains pretty much every 2E table you might ever need.

 

The thaco part is about halfway down, page 20 or so.

[Guest erik]

I'd guess that the disputed part is "what happens to thaco and saves after level 20". PHB and DMG doesn't answer that... and I suspect that there are various references in various supplements to that question.

[Miloch]

Don't know if the game actually follows the 2E THACO and saving throw tables, though. I always install the "un-nerf THACO and saving throws" component of whatever mod offers it, don't reallly remember which one, right now though, so it must alter it somewhat.

The BG2 Tweak Pack makes reference to "un-nerfed THAC0 tables" but doesn't say what they actually are.

I am going to try to make sense of the Tweak Pack code (I doubt I can but it's worth a try) and see if the tables match up. It could likely be the BG tables were off and the tweak makes them closer to 2nd edition.

 

@Rabain - thanks for that document, a very handy reference!

I'd guess that the disputed part is "what happens to thaco and saves after level 20". PHB and DMG doesn't answer that... and I suspect that there are various references in various supplements to that question.

The answer to that seems to be they go negative (there's even a specific reference to Baldur's Gate in this post).

 

Isn't it about time you registered, erik?

[Luiz]

The un-nerfed THAC0 works like this:

 

All classes continue their rate of base THAC0 improvement beyond level 20, at the rate appropriate for their class (as outlined above). Base THAC0 never drops below 0. Whether all classes should continue beyond level 20, and whether Base THAC0 should or should not drop below 0, is a matter for debate ... but the mod's implementation here seems appropriate to me.

 

As for Saving-Throws:

 

The un-nerfed Saving Throws affected only Thieves (incl. Bards) and Wizards (incl. Sorcerers) - at least this was the case with the Ease-of-Use version; I've not checked the BG2_Tweaks version, which codes the changes in a more sophistated manner. In original game Thieves and Wizards were not given their final improvement to saving throws (which should have come at level 21). All the mod did was restore this, and it's by the rules.

[Miloch]

The answer to that seems to be they go negative (there's even a specific reference to Baldur's Gate in this post).

Apparently that poster was wrong about BG2, unless referring to BG1 by mistake. I did up a page of the THAC0 tables in BG1, BG2 and the BG2 Tweak Pack (originally from Ease-of-Use - it wasn't so much a matter of trying to read code, as it just overwrites the tables).

 

Now funnily enough, BG1 and the BG2 Tweak Pack are practically the same. The only difference is that THAC0 can go negative for fighters and clerics at high levels, which is also in core 2nd edition rules, according to the references. Perhaps the tweak authors thought this was too powerful though? Also the Tweak extends past level 40 (wasn't relevant for BG1).

 

Another odd difference is in the document Rabain linked to (apparently straight out of the 2e PHB) gives thieves the same THAC0 as mages. That doesn't sound right to me, and it also isn't the case for BG in any of the versions.

 

Thanks for the info, Luiz. I'll look into saving throws next.

[BigRob]

Another odd difference is in the document Rabain linked to (apparently straight out of the 2e PHB) gives thieves the same THAC0 as mages.

 

Actually, it looks fine to me, the THAC0 for a rogue goes 20, 20, 19, 19, 18, where for the mage it goes 20, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19.

 

The saving throws also look accurate, so there may be no need for that table after all. I will check tonight though.

[Miloch]

Actually, it looks fine to me, the THAC0 for a rogue goes 20, 20, 19, 19, 18, where for the mage it goes 20, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19.

Right, that's how it is in the game. But in the document Rabain linked to, the Thief's THAC0 also goes 20, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19 and otherwise the same as a mage. Is it like this in the actual 2e PHB? I'm thinking it's a typo or something.

[Luiz]

No, Rabain's linked doc looks fine. We're looking at table 53, right?

 

Rogue 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 ...

...

Wizard 20 20 20 19 19 19 18 18 ...

 

That's what's showing up in my window.