I met great heroes today

[BigRob]

Practically every CRPG game ever created that is based on a PnP game does this. Enemy levels and powers are far in excess of what you would expect from the "reality" of the PnP game, because in order to make the player feel like they're getting more powerful, they have to keep levelling. By the same token, if you want to keep challenging the player, the enemies need to be tougher.

 

Of course, you can always make those enemies appropriately scaled monsters, but not being able to talk to your enemies at all gets boring after a while (Dungeon Seige, anyone?)

 

I think SoA does this reasonably well in that the NPC foes are tough to begin with, but they stay static, so you're not getting a situation where for some reason every twit in town is level 20 just because you are.

[Sorrow]

Practically every CRPG game ever created that is based on a PnP game does this. Enemy levels and powers are far in excess of what you would expect from the "reality" of the PnP game, because in order to make the player feel like they're getting more powerful, they have to keep levelling. By the same token, if you want to keep challenging the player, the enemies need to be tougher.

Personally, I prefer when my hard work (Sorry, but dungeon crawling is hardly a pleasure to me.) gives some actual results, like being able to crush common thugs like bugs.

I mean, it's a roleplaying game, not a competitive wargame with stats and dialogues. What's the point of going through those tiring dungeons and fighting stupid monsters if a common thug is as powerful as PC?

 

Also, there should be some moral choices - like - "Is it okay to crush a neutral character like a bug, just because he robs/rapes/kills other people?" or "Would killing that non-threatening bandit be a callous lack of respect for human life?" or "Is it okay to kill someone just because he tries to rob you with a crossbow? You can always make more money, but you can't return a human life." - wrong answers could lead some people (like Nalia or Aerie) to leaving the party.

Also reputation, intimidation, etc., etc., etc.

[zixi]

I agree with you.

 

Part of the fun of the game is immersion but when that happens you become more closely concerned with consequences and then, how do you honestly argue with Balthazar that you are a force of good and the bloodshed has been necessary? It's been necessary only because the marker turns red and BG never lets you run away. But I doubt Balthazar would understand that - he's a monk not a programmer!

 

I've run away from more wolves and dogs in 'Oblivion' than that; the yelp breaks my heart - athletics is usually one of the first skills to peak.

 

Running away in BG isn't really possible and if you do the 'enemy' holds a grudge no matter how long you stay away. I wish sometimes I could reason with them.

 

Words not swords!

[Sorrow]

IMO a lot of wild creatures should be running away from PC or ignore her, like bears in BG1.

 

I think that the constant hostility thing makes BG pretty childish. It features tons of killing but not many moral choices in that area.

For example some of the enemy groups could give up after receiving a sound beating, other after their leader dies, etc.

Also, they could try to negotiate with PC to allow them to take the corpse of their leader/member for burial or revival. A knight could be captured and returned for ransom, etc.

Also, there could be a lot more non-lethal fighting, like tavern brawls, etc.

 

Of course there would be consequences - someone could plot vengeance, thugs could re-offend (and guess who would be blamed?), enemies could have families, etc.

 

It would allow to define the PCs moral system better and would introduce new interesting conflicts into the team. Could you imagine Aerie or Nalia killing off a helpless opponent?

Then there's also a question of law. How would authorities react to a group of heavily armed vigilantes running around and killing hundreds of people?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, there could be, a way to brake the 4th wall, a spell that forces the 'enemy' back to the originally blue neutral(or what ever)... and to combat the cheating, it would need to be targeted only to the Neutral type of targets, and it would restart the Override->Class->Race->General->Default script, in that order(would be my guess).

The spell could be made somewhat expensive and quite rare...

 

Or maybe they just used Shadowkeeper ...

Well, they(programmers) used the games own engine to make the cre'as first, and then modified then as needed. Unlike they did in Diablo II, where the even the intermediate monsters(on harder difs) might be immune to everything you can throw at them-- yey, now there is a balance.

[zixi]

Sorrow

You’re right, Aerie wades in there with the best of them not caring at all as long as the marker has turned red and even if the PC refuses to take part because some idiot has let off a range spell and everyone has quite rightly turned a bit nasty. Though to be fair to her, when I accidentally targeted Xan, she did say: 'If you're sure' before she hit him repeatedly... but I didn't listen of course and the poor guy let her hit him. I was more exasperated with him than her.

 

I’ll admit to having switched off from the power button!!!!! a game where people were dying of starvation because I tried a vegetarian economy and wouldn’t kill the pigs. And in ‘Oblivion’ I left money for people who looked hard up… they never spent it though. And I’m only being slightly ironic… look no smiley!

 

OK so this is immersion and I’m not that embarrassed because I’m still hoping for the day where the game AI gets beyond the simplistic and has the power to learn. And when I get to input my own dialogue so I can tell some of them what I really think. I assure you it will be more along the lines of: Listen sunshine; I know how this bit is coded and the laws of probability dictate that you don’t have a chance.

 

Which really brings us back to your original complaint that yes it's role play but hey don't make us stretch credulity too far or we can't 'play' at all...

 

jarno mikkola - yes I could go with a limited one of those

[DavidW]

The "improved random encounters" component of SCSII, though in general it makes the problem you're objecting to worse not better, does eventually give up and deliver random "encounters" that might be more appropriate

 

Town version #1:

 

First bandit: Change of plan, men. This one's too much for us.

 

Town version #2:

 

First bandit: It's <CHARNAME>!

Second bandit: Let's get out of here!

 

Wilderness version:

 

First goblin: Adventurers!

Second goblin: Ruuuun!

[zixi]

That must be particularly amusing where the PC has a very long name… It’s difficult to imagine a group of thugs hanging around saying:

 

"It’s Lord Bashalot the Basher. Let’s get out of here."

 

Just checked, the devs limited the name string to 20 characters.

 

Even I would be concise under those circumstances.

 

But yes, that along with a random factor to allow for the thug who doesn’t understand probability and IF…THEN blocks.

[strayshift]

I think I once looked at a final save for BG1 once and counted up the 'kills' of the party (and there were more because I had dropped/killed off some earlier npc's) I can't remember the numbers but it was a small war (c.600) - perhaps the god of murder might have been re-born by the time the pc's party reach the end of ToB?

 

There is a lack of peaceful solutions yes, and some silly combats (muggers attacking platemail armoured fighters with mage/cleric/archer back up, when there are probably easier targets about).

 

I tend to mentally excuse it by saying (to myself yes, but not aloud) that it is Bhaal's corrupting influence about the pc - after all just about everyone who adventures with him/her for some time suffers in some way (Imoen, Jahiera, Minsc, Nalia, etc)

 

Its an RPG and so has to cater for a range of tastes and keep us clicking at the mouse, forums like these mean you can devise your own solutions to these and explore the 'world' in a range of ways. The enduring popularity of the games means thankfully more is right than wrong. :-)

G

[Sorrow]

Or maybe they just used Shadowkeeper ...

Well, they(programmers) used the games own engine to make the cre'as first, and then modified then as needed.

I talked about the NPCs, not about programmers .

 

OK so this is immersion and I’m not that embarrassed because I’m still hoping for the day where the game AI gets beyond the simplistic and has the power to learn. And when I get to input my own dialogue so I can tell some of them what I really think. I assure you it will be more along the lines of: Listen sunshine; I know how this bit is coded and the laws of probability dictate that you don’t have a chance.

It's more a problem of not giving scripters enough time rather than a flaw of the AI itself.

 

I think I once looked at a final save for BG1 once and counted up the 'kills' of the party (and there were more because I had dropped/killed off some earlier npc's) I can't remember the numbers but it was a small war (c.600) - perhaps the god of murder might have been re-born by the time the pc's party reach the end of ToB?

Yeah. Same here . Though in my case it was about 1500 - but in that case it was justified because my PC killed everyone.

 

There is a lack of peaceful solutions yes, and some silly combats (muggers attacking platemail armoured fighters with mage/cleric/archer back up, when there are probably easier targets about).

Yeah. That's Bioware's school of game design . The most awful of these was when some angry guy in Feldeposts Inn started a brawl with my party. He got quickly subdued, but there was no way to turn him into neutral.

 

Even worse are moments when I want to kill someone, but I can't because they run away and magically disappear. And then there are those cutscenes that force PC to be stupid...

[Galactygon]

This already sounds like a total conversion, and we have a fine team assembled.

 

Seriously, there ought be a mod that decreases their levels and increases their numbers. I imagine gangs to have at least 10 members present in every encounter.

 

-Galactygon

[Sorrow]

This already sounds like a total conversion, and we have a fine team assembled.

??

 

Seriously, there ought be a mod that decreases their levels and increases their numbers. I imagine gangs to have at least 10 members present in every encounter.

A combination of one level 1 cleric with Command, 5 level 1 thieves, 5 level 0 fighters and one level 3 thief is pretty good^^.

[BigRob]

Personally, I prefer when my hard work (Sorry, but dungeon crawling is hardly a pleasure to me.) gives some actual results, like being able to crush common thugs like bugs.

I mean, it's a roleplaying game, not a competitive wargame with stats and dialogues. What's the point of going through those tiring dungeons and fighting stupid monsters if a common thug is as powerful as PC?

I agree with you on this point (as well as the fact that dungeon crawling can be tedious). After a while in the game, the PC should be able to brush aside your average street thug with no trouble whatsoever. Now while the basic thugs are ridiculously overpowered for what they should be, that is at least the case. Once you're about 10th level or so you just blitz through them without stopping. The same can be said of Baalthazar's army. As powerful as they are, I don't remember having much trouble slaughtering them to a man.

 

 

You could also consider that the thugs that ambush you in the game are particularly powerful members of the Shadow Thieves/bandits who are looking to rob and kill low level adventurers, as rolling drunks is a little beneath them. After all, a 10th level warrior in full plate and a second level warrior in full plate look pretty much the same and any twit can have a magical sword passed down to them. The times when you're not ambushed is when low level thugs see you and decide they don't want to fight someone that well armed.

 

 

Also, there should be some moral choices - like - "Is it okay to crush a neutral character like a bug, just because he robs/rapes/kills other people?" or "Would killing that non-threatening bandit be a callous lack of respect for human life?" or "Is it okay to kill someone just because he tries to rob you with a crossbow? You can always make more money, but you can't return a human life." - wrong answers could lead some people (like Nalia or Aerie) to leaving the party.

Also reputation, intimidation, etc., etc., etc.

There are a few of these choices scattered about the game, but not very many (such as the orc in Fiirkraag's dungeon). I also agree that the game could use more instances where NPCs try to yeild after being badly overmatched and spots where party NPCs should object more strongly to killing certain enemies. Even some monsters should give up if badly hurt enough, perhaps when they fail morale checks.

[Jarno Mikkola]

... 5 level 0 fighters and one level 3 thief is pretty good.

The AD&D rules, there is no such a thing as a level 0 fighter. It's a civilian, he has 3 hit point's+con... Thac0 of 20, AC 10, saving throws of 20... I don't really thing that that actually works, as it will be always a race of who throws the first Fireball, Entangle, Spook or Sleep spell, and they are dead.

[Sorrow]

You could also consider that the thugs that ambush you in the game are particularly powerful members of the Shadow Thieves/bandits who are looking to rob and kill low level adventurers, as rolling drunks is a little beneath them. After all, a 10th level warrior in full plate and a second level warrior in full plate look pretty much the same and any twit can have a magical sword passed down to them. The times when you're not ambushed is when low level thugs see you and decide they don't want to fight someone that well armed.

No. They are common thugs that were "pumped-up" for "balance". If they were particularly powerful members of the Shadow Thieves/bandits they would have a lot of magic items and would probably have some sort of spellcaster. Yeah, and they would probably strike from the shadows.

 

The AD&D rules, there is no such a thing as a level 0 fighter. It's a civilian, he has 3 hit point's+con... Thac0 of 20, AC 10, saving throws of 20...

That's weird. My Dungeon Master's Guide has level 0 fighters that represent soldiers, guards, etc. They have 1D8+1 HP and basic weapon proficiency.

 

I don't really thing that that actually works, as it will be always a race of who throws the first Fireball, Entangle, Spook or Sleep spell, and they are dead.

Fireball, Spook and Sleep require having a licence for spellcasting.