Yoshimo's past in Kara-Tur?

[Icendoan]

Nope, we see pretty much eye-to-eye on this. I am happy with it, just a little scared about the amount of coding it will take!

 

Icen

[Lemernis]

I don't see it getting completed before spring, tbh. But that's okay. When it comes to adding this additional content we should just work at whatever speed feels comfortable. This is a hobby.

 

I haven't even written the dialogues yet where Yoshi tells the story of how he betrayed Kesalo. Even after that is completed, I expect all this the new Kara-Turan history/Tamoko/ToB quest material to take at least four months. (Until then we'll eventually have a working beta version that players can use that lacks all this new stuff we're talking about.)

 

But for now we can think about how to introduce this new plot material...

 

I wonder if most of Yoshi's history in Kara-Tur can be sprinkled throughout the mod via short banters with various NPCs? Without Yoshi giving his sister's name, specifically, he could relate the story in bits and pieces. In fact Yoshimo can raise some of it also himself when he tells the story of how he collected the bounty on Kesalo. He can relate that the concubine Sarasina reminded him of his sister. He'll not say any more than that. But later on he relates the story.

 

Players will probably see it coming from a mile away that his sister is Tamoko, but that's alright I guess. How and when it gets revealed that it is Tamoko is something we'll have to think on some more.

[lac]

In Japan -- the real one -- at any rate the class of farmer was socially advantageous though being poor because the class of merchant was so despised. And unbelievably harsh limits were thoroughgoing throughout society to make

sure that there was as close to no social mobility as one could attain.

 

There is no 'getting ahead' in pre-industrial Japan, except for a small bit

in the despised merchant classes, who were in part despised because they

had social mobility. And, at the fringes, it was indeed possible for the

richest of the middle class to marry into the samurai class.

 

But this caused class friction and hatred and resentment of the worst sort.

 

So, yes, it is still hard for me to think of Yoshi as in a Samurai family. The

illegitimate offspring of a Samurai father, yes, that's easy. But I have

problems seeing him deciding to leave his family for any reason, or for

any Yakuza sort of organisation wanting him for some reason. Very early

on, as in before his 17th birthday as you outline, its just in everybody's

interest for Yoshi to become dead -- even Yoshi's own professed interest if

he was raised properly.

[lac]

Interesting thing about character development ....

 

Assuming a start of neutral (which isn't always so) you can plan

character developement through plot elements

 

a) to increase one's liking for a char

b) to increase one's respect for a char

c) to keep one puzzled -- guessing -- about one's feelings about the char

d) to make one feel disgust with the char

e) to make one fear the char

f) to make one dislike the char

 

 

----

and many more, depending on how significant an emotion is to a char.

so the Xan relationship with despair is well outlined by Kulyok, but that

is who Xan is.

 

As we reveal more and more about Yoshi do we have a way we wish

players to feel?

 

I was leaning towards 'dislike' but I think Lermirnis wants to keep Yoshi

marginally pitiable and likable.

 

Is this true?

 

laura

[Icendoan]

Yoshimo's personality on joining the party is immediately someone you would like and trust. He manipulates this to his gain. Players can feel what they want to feel, and we try to get dialogue options to reflect their choice, and what I feel we are doing is simply showing more of Yoshimo's actual character, and adding more and more depth, to let the players feel how they want to, with all the information.

 

I guess we are trying to make him likeable, because we want this mod to be played!

 

If there is no (or very little) social movement, how did Yoshimo and Tamoko end up as mercenaries (sort of) in Amn/Sword Coast?

 

Icen

[lac]

well, the fact that they are in the sword coast and not at home may support my idea of no social mobility at home. The thing is, in rigid societies, it generally

takes some sort of Trauma for one to leave.

 

Did Tamoko meet with Saverok before or after leaving for the Sword Coast? Did

she always love him or did that come later? These questions may not be ours to

ask -- indeed, we may write Yoshimo better if _he_ doesn't know the answers

to these questions and wants to find them out -- but they are important in

determining why tamoko and yoshimo are who they are and did/do what they

do.

[Icendoan]

Well, as the quote Lemernis posted, the social mobility for Yoshimo is him being at the end of a chain of siblings, and being turned to the streets at a relatively young age.

 

Having Sarevok meet Tamoko in Kara-Tur would greatly simplify things, I feel, but still, Tamoko running after shaming her family may work after all, and it provides for that quest outline.

 

Icen

[lac]

I am bad at explaining this.

 

You are working from a perspective of 'wow, things are tough at home, let us

choose to live on the streets, get adopted into a gang ' which is very 20th

century, and the part I cannot get my brain to believe in.

 

as in -- yakuza gangs are only for members of the yakuza class and have

been so for generations.

 

as in Yoshi is more likely to want to kill himself than joining a yakuza gang.

 

as in the yakuza, who also do not have social mobility, are more likely to

want to kill Yoshi as his relatives demand for his dishonour than to adopt him

 

my problems with his unbelievability is that the restrictions around the

Samurai class worked, very effectively, both ways. Else there would be a huge number of defects from the class because life for a poor samurai younger son was indeed wretched. But there were, as far as I have studied, 0 revolts that

started from this class, diseffected Samurai. (unless you consider the last one,

by Saigo, exactly that, and well, I won't argue that one -- but it was a revolt

in opposition to the betterment of this class, held by those who wanted to

adhere to the old ways). Forget the Tom Cruise movie, by the way, for

any sort of historical accuracy.

 

That's how rigid the real japan was. Yoshi as both Tong member and Samurai

makes sense only for political Tongs, as far as my brain can get around to

shaping it.

 

Nobody needs to make a char acceptable to my brain, of course, but I thought

I owed it to you to let you know where the whole thing is falling apart in

believability in my eyes.

 

And we are up against a problem here. Great writing can make you suspend

your disbelief. I am sure that the two of you are capapble of writing that will make me suspend mine. But you want to not clobber us with writing, and leave a lot to our imaginations. All well and good, but my japan is not as flexible as

the Wa you need for your plot. And there is a bad misfit there.

[Lemernis]

It's important to rememberthat the fantasy setting of the Forgotten Realms always remains utterly distinct from its real world derivations. The company that bought and developed Ed Greenwood's setting, TSR, added a lot of subsettings to it that are transparently inspired by the real world. But while they are inspired by the real world it should never be assumed that there is a 1:1 correspondence. So comparing Kozakura to real world historical Japan is fallacious. Sorry. At least as far as that part of your commentary is concerned.

 

I appreciate the input and feedback, Laura, can't respond to all of it right now. I'll look over and respond to your ideas abour Yoshi's character development over the next couple days.

[Lemernis]

Nobody needs to make a char acceptable to my brain, of course, but I thought I owed it to you to let you know where the whole thing is falling apart in believability in my eyes.

 

And we are up against a problem here. Great writing can make you suspend your disbelief. I am sure that the two of you are capapble of writing that will make me suspend mine. But you want to not clobber us with writing, and leave a lot to our imaginations. All well and good, but my japan is not as flexible as the Wa you need for your plot. And there is a bad misfit there.

 

I think any mod mod that presumes to invent a backstory for any of the Bioware NPCs is going to elicit some 'cognitive dissonace' for the player. It's only a matter of degree. There's no way around that, I'm afraid. If we wrote a Yoshimo that is perfect in Laura's eyes, that realization of the character is still a poor fit for some other player out there. But I'm sure you realize that.

 

A reminder from the topic starter. I wrote:

 

As the mod stands, our dialogue is mostly story-driven regarding the subplot. The 'voice' we have given Yoshi emerges through that story. Hopefully attention flows more to story than the idiosyncracies of Yoshi's voice as a personality. Because everyone has their own internal mental template in their own imgination of what Yoshi sounds like. Icen and I both have him speak slightly differently, as we sent edits back and forth. Players will each have their own individual sense of how Yoshimo "ought" to sound.

 

So... with that in mind... Players, do you want to learn more about Yoshi's more distant past in Kara-Tur? And how he came to be the person he is?...

 

I ask this partly because, personally, myself I'm not a big fan of mods that assume too much about NPCs. And I wonder if mods that draw out the character quite heavily don't actually tend to disappoint a great many players. Because that mod author's content is probably always going to feel somewhat dissonant with whatever feel for the character a player has unconsciously developed in the back of his or her own mind.

 

And again the most important point I see re: your (constructive) criticism about the family structure and class system in real world Japan: Wa and Kozakura are not real world Japan! They are clearly modeled after it, as is obvious. But we take at face value what the source books say, and we are left to craft the rest with our own imaginations. Even when a FR subsetting is heavily derived from a real world source, the developers (particularly Ed Greenwood) are quick to point out that it should always be given its own distinctly "Realmsian" flavor. DMs running their own tabletop campaigns often add that by filling in the gaps and adding details that seem to ring true to various FR sources, and by virtue of their own originality and creativity. But the point is, we should only take real world derivations only as far as the source books explicitly state, and not necessarily beyond.

 

***

 

The thing is, in rigid societies, it generally takes some sort of Trauma for one to leave.

 

We do have a trauma motivating Tamoko to leave--because women are so subservient in that culture I think we need one.

 

But I don't think we need a major traumatic event to have Yoshimo leave the home, though. Now mind you, we're making an assumption that culturally Wa and Kozakura are identical regarding the basic class and family structures, since Kara-Tur doesn't provide such material specifically for Kozakura*. But anyway, the sourcebook says for the family structure (and then presumably all classes for Wa/Kozakura):

 

Younger siblings of the oldest son can find life to be harsh. In difficult times, these children may be forced to accept substandard food and clothing rather than deny the eldest son. Because of their extravagant lifestyles, samurai have an especially difficult time providing for extra children. Many samurai children suffer poverty within the walls of a lavish home. Some are adopted out. Others are turned into the streets to make their own way.

 

So it is particularly harsh for the younger children in many if not most Samurai families, specifically. I mean, from the above it sounds like there would be nothing surprising or out of the ordinary for younger sons to leave of their own accord as soon as they feel old enough to fend for themselves.

 

I don't think we need to complicate things by making them half-siblings. And as I mentioned I want to make use of Yoshi having formed a genuine bond early in his life. I think that makes him a more complex, interesting character, and it makes the struggles in him more dramatically compelling to me. I think it's easier to buy that he would have had a strong bond with Tamoko if he was a full sibling living in the same household, than than a half one, living in different families!

 

***

 

...yakuza gangs are only for members of the yakuza class and have been so for generations...

 

...Yoshi is more likely to want to kill himself than joining a yakuza gang...

 

...the yakuza, who also do not have social mobility, are more likely to want to kill Yoshi as his relatives demand for his dishonour than to adopt him...

 

I'm sorry, but I don't find anything in the source book to suggest what you're asserting here. Here's what the book says about the Yakuza class, broadly (and this is specific to Kozakura, actually):

 

Yakuza

 

The peddlers and gamblers of this country were not organized into yakuza families until recently, when a few ambitious criminals from Wa saw opportunity to expand their operations in Kozakura. Yakuza families here are still loosely organized and growing, concentrating their activities in gambling, the protection racket, and the fencing of stolen goods. Families of special distinction have not yet come to light, and there is much opportunity for ambitious yakuza adventurers to shape and create an organization from scratch.

 

So a family probably has the best chance to start and run a criminal gang. But it sounds like this is actually kind of an entrepeneurial thing where a gang can be 'shaped and created from scratch'; and yakuzas are also relatively new on the scene, also. Even if a family is in charge, the gangs still need operatives, and have to recruit talent from somewhere. I would assume that members need to pledge some sort of alliegiance, etc. Znyway, if there is some real world Japanese source behind the assumption that its hard to join a yakuza, the Forgotten Realms source book Kara-Tur describes something that offers much more opportunity.

 

 

 

 

 

* As a fellow FR lore geek at another site pointed out to me:

 

"Both nations were at one time just groups of small, 'petty-Kingdoms', each run by a local Lord. At that point in time there was no Wa or Kozakura, and I'm sure (reading through some of the history) that at certain times in the past pieces of each belonged to the other, and several individuals - both Shogun and early Emperors - have tried to unite the rest of the 'Han Lands' under one regime.

 

It's one culture divided into two Kingdoms, similar to certain Western countries like Cormyr and Impiltur, or Amn and Tethyr. Over time some differences have emerged, but not enough for anyone to consider them a different racial stock.

 

- Markustay"

[Lemernis]

Interesting thing about character development ....

 

Assuming a start of neutral (which isn't always so) you can plan

character developement through plot elements

 

a) to increase one's liking for a char

b) to increase one's respect for a char

c) to keep one puzzled -- guessing -- about one's feelings about the char

d) to make one feel disgust with the char

e) to make one fear the char

f) to make one dislike the char

 

 

----

and many more, depending on how significant an emotion is to a char.

so the Xan relationship with despair is well outlined by Kulyok, but that

is who Xan is.

 

As we reveal more and more about Yoshi do we have a way we wish

players to feel?

 

I was leaning towards 'dislike' but I think Lermirnis wants to keep Yoshi

marginally pitiable and likable.

 

Is this true?

 

laura

 

When we take all the material available pertaining to Yoshimo, namely

 

- the fact that he's acting as Irenicus' agent/spying because has the Geas on him

- his dialogs, which have a friendly tone

- his soundset lines (again, basically friendly tone, and sense of humor therein)

- his alignment

- his apparent faith in Ilmater

- how Yoshimo is realized in the novel

- what possible shaping influences Kara-Turan culture might have had

 

etc., and sift through it... the view I personally come away with is actually a fairly sympathetic one in a lot of ways. (That said, I do tend to see the best in people. That's one of my own idiosyncracies, I guess.)

 

The guy is forced into spying to begin with. He's not evil. He has an alignment that has him tending to side with the underdog in any conflict. He apparently embraces a faith that seeks to aid the poor, weak, suffering, and oppressed.

 

Yoshi is an affable character. He's a good-natured sort. He seems to take pride in his work. It seems to be important to him be reliable as a team member, and to perform well as a member of the party.

 

He's not really an oily sort, a weasel, like Saemon, for example.

 

He seems genuinely to struggle with the fact that he is betraying the PC. It could be an act, but his angst about the betrayal in the vanilla game comes across as pretty sincere.

 

What I have found myself working with most with him, is how he surprises us. So at different turns I want first to set up expectations that he is dedicated to reform himself, on the one hand, but have things perpetually come up that place that in doubt again, on the other. The overall trendline is that he becomes more likeable, and you really want to trust him more. But in him there's an ongoing struggle between his angels and demons, his higher and lower self. By the end, though, I would say yes, overall the player will be satisfied that he is a trusted ally.

[lac]

re:

 

So it is particularly harsh for the younger children in many if not most

Samurai families, specifically. I mean, from the above it sounds like there

would be nothing surprising or out of the ordinary for younger sons to leave

of their own accord as soon as they feel old enough to fend for themselves.

 

That's the part I am having problems believing. Younger Samurai sons can kill themselves, or be murdered by their fathers, or be ordered by their fathers to kill themselves. What they cannot do is 'go off and fend for themselves', in general, because there is no outside for them to go off and fend in. And they aren't supposed to have selves -- if they do this is evidence that the family training has broken down somewhere. Because you really are supposed to prefer to be dead than in any way outside of your family. And, historically, this

really did work.

 

I can believe in a Yoshi for whom the training did not work, and who ran away rather than accept his obligations. But then I have problem seeing him as joining the Yakuza -- not because he would not want to, but because the Yakuza wouldn't want him. The Yakuza, again, is a closed society, and Yoshi as a Samurai would not be a member of that society. Instead, he is a member of the class the the Yakuza either exploits or serves. Yoshi's head on a plate would be worth more to the Yakuza than Yoshi alive and well and a member of

the Yakuza.

 

That's where my disbelief cuts in. I cannot believe in a non-rigid Samurai culture.

Otherwise you just have a regular western European fighter/knight/warrior culture with samurai swords, which is not quite what I was imagining.

 

Does this make sense?

[Icendoan]

Yes, that does, and I don't know how we can edge around this, then. If society was so rigid, how did Tamoko become to be in Baldur's Gate and Yoshimo in Amn, with a record to his name?

 

Icen

[Lemernis]

 

 

 

How many times do I have to keep reposting this? This is directly from the source book (emphasis mine):

 

Younger siblings of the oldest son can find life to be harsh. In difficult times, these children may be forced to accept substandard food and clothing rather than deny the eldest son. Because of their extravagant lifestyles, samurai have an especially difficult time providing for extra children. Many samurai children suffer poverty within the walls of a lavish home. Some are adopted out. Others are turned into the streets to make their own way.

 

and this:

 

Wa and Kozakura are not real world Japan!

 

 

***

 

In the interest of being sure to get things right I'm posing the question at a Forgotten Realms thinktank type site, though. I'll report the feedback I get.

[Lemernis]

Okay, report back after a little more research and discussion with fellow FR lore geeks.

 

First, confirmation that Kozakura and Wa are basically culturally identical:

 

Kara-Tur was originally created by a single author for the 1e Oriental Adventures hardback as a sample setting. The paired empires of Shou Lung and T'u Lung, Wa and Kozakura, were specifically created to allow play in united/disunited China/Japan, all in the same brief setting. The Kara-Tur boxed set came several years later, and inherited the design decisions originally made for a briefly sketched sample setting.

 

1e Oriental Adventures has "An Overview of Kara-Tur" on pages 136-137. It says:

 

Kozakura ("Little Cherry Blossom") is inhabited by the same race of people as found on Wa and shares virtually the same customs and traditions.

 

So, almost everything should apply.

 

***

 

Second re: the argument that a disgraced teenager in such a scenario would most likely be ordered to commit seppuku or, feel personally compelled to do that, I'm just not finding support for it in the source book or real world historical Japan:

 

We have in the source book that younger "extra" children from samurai homes are heavily devalued as a rule, even to the point that they are in some cases sent out into the world to fend for themselves, and there is no mention whatsoever of them feeling compelled to commit seppuku.

 

Very little information about seppuku in Wa/Kozakura is given in the source book, these are the only references I find:

 

Samurai cherish honor above all else, including their own lives. Disgraced samurai will voluntarily forfeit their status to become ronin. Especially dedicated samurai may respond to extreme disgrace with seppuku...

 

The authorities seized Hayo's fief and ordered him to commit seppuku (suicide)...

 

Powerful persons of great rank who are out of favor with the government are sometimes banished to Yarujima. Their location and activities can be more closely monitored than if they were simply expelled from Kozakura, and in this way they are not allowed an honorable death by hari-kiri...

 

But even based on what I see from real world Japan I see no indication that a child or teenager from a samurai family would commit seppuku under Wa/Kozakura's scenario of youngest children in large samurai families at high risk to be terribly neglected. I.e., if one were imagine such children in real world historical Japan from such families being terribly neglected, "adopted out," or "turned into the streets to make their own way," seppuku would probably not be a viable option.

 

In real world feudal Japan, seppuku was a ritual reserved for full fledged samurai that had a very distinct meaning within the culture. From what I can gather on the subject from the internet, the seppuku ritual is suicide with honor, reserved for samurai, and the samurai's lord (retainer) must direct it or give permission for it.

 

I'm not saying that some of those Kozakuran adolescent children from samurai households that are mistreated might not commit suicide. They might. But suicide is different than seppuku. In feudal Japan mundane suicide was considered something mentally imbalanced, and a dishonorable death.

 

So only samurai are allowed to perform the ritual, and the samurai's retainer must either order it, or give permission for it. But could we even expect all children in such a samurai family to have samurai status to begin with? No. First, a 16 year old teenager would not have completed the training in any case. But beyond that, it seems implausible that the opportunity would even exist. I think it is safe to assume that one gains the opportunity to receive training to become a samurai by virtue of belonging to such a family, yes. But according to the description of family structure, I think the assumption is that status is an honor bestowed to favored (eldest) sons. There is probably a spectrum for such families, where at one end is the samurai family that is struggling to make ends meet, and the father is a cruel and harsh man; and at the other end the family doing well enough financially that they provide well for all the children, and the father is a good, caring human being who cherishes all his children. But regardless of the fact that some samurai fathers could have a good heart, the source book clearly suggests that the rule is that the youngest 'extra' children typically have a rough go of it. If the disregard of such children rises to the level that they are commonly being denied food and clothing, adopted out, put out into the streets, etc., it is hard to imagine them having access even to samurai training.