Yoshimo's past in Kara-Tur?

[lac]

I think the crucial question that needs answering is: Why does Yoshi have any

moral qualms about the taking down of Kesalo (which is, by the way, the exact

name of a Swedish brand of cottage cheese, so I am having problems not laughing with this name ) at all? He's a bounty hunter! He hunts and kills people for money, and that is what he does. A good person would have problems with the whole profession, but Yoshi isn't good. I would expect most followers of Illmater to be good, so the question might hinge on 'why isn't Yoshi good?', or perhaps 'why doesn't Yoshi want to be good'? ... or does he want to be good but virtuous behaviour is just beyond him?

 

I'm having a bit of difficulty believing that at this late stage in his life, Yoshi is suddenly beset with guilt and remorse for his own greed and selfishness, or for the betraying of Kesalo. I am looking for a compelling reason why he would not

think that greed and selfishness is what makes the world turn, powers commerce, and in general makes the world a better place. Especially when it gets people like him involved in capturing truly rank criminals ...

 

just more thoughts,

Laura

[Lemernis]

You read that that he feels remorse for what he did to Kesalo?

 

No, he was was rather comfortable with that. He didn't like Kesalo to begin with.

 

Yoshimo feeling a vague pull to better himself isn't brought about by what he did to Kesalo. It's just that when he recounts the tale to the PC, he is in effect telling the story of a(nother) betrayal of comrades. As we know, he had betrayed the PC also by spying on him for Irenicus. So that theme is raised for the party to discuss. I can already imagine the interjections by NPCs about that.

 

Yoshimo is apparently a devoted follower of Ilmater. (As we discover from his dying request in the vanilla game.) I have him at least feeling a wish to improve his character because of that. It doesn't mean he's having any success, btw! He can still remain a scoundrel who wishes to improve himself, but never really makes much ground.

 

So he wants to help the oppresed as a part of his faith. Is this sincere? Hard to say. But he also has this set of impulses in him that is sociopathic and self-interested. And there is a tug-of-war between the two sides of him.

 

Btw, I'm realizing now that in taking out Kesalo he also happens to be (unconcsiously) going after that part of himself that is impulsive, greedy, reckless, etc. Right? That is, the very traits in Kesalo that he feels such contempt toward is his own achilles heel.

 

 

 

(Lol, I Googled Kesalo and see that it is a city in Georgia, of which I had no idea. But who knew Kesalo was also a cheese brand?)

[lac]

Well the original is this

 

http://www.arlafoods.se/produkter/mjolk/br...st-pizza-150g1/

 

kesella

 

but kesalo is what the local food store for prodiucts made with no pesticides, additives, etc. calls their home made brand. So this would count as very obscure in my books.

 

Yes, I read into what you wrote that Yoshi was feeling remorse for killing Keselo. Now I am not sure how Yoshi feels about anything. This may be progress.

 

Laura

[Lemernis]

Well the original is this

 

http://www.arlafoods.se/produkter/mjolk/br...st-pizza-150g1/

 

kesella

 

but kesalo is what the local food store for prodiucts made with no pesticides, additives, etc. calls their home made brand. So this would count as very obscure in my books.

 

I guess it's cottage cheese then? Hmph. Not a suitably robust type of cheese for such a powerful young mage. I think we will have to rename him Gorgonzola.

 

Yes, I read into what you wrote that Yoshi was feeling remorse for killing Keselo. Now I am not sure how Yoshi feels about anything. This may be progress.

 

I know, it's a bit amorphous isn't it? My thinking about it is actually evolving a bit with each observation everyone makes.

 

In responding to the way you read the backstory I found myself thinking you know, Yoshimo could basically just be shining people on with this business about redemption. And I found myself liking that idea a lot.

 

If handled this way, it would not that Yoshi doesn't somewhere inside have a real desire to become a better person. But his less honorable side always seems to win out and set him back. That's the typical charming rogue profile in literature, anyway.

 

I'm wondering if we could have him use his Ilmaterian faith to get over with people, essentially. Like it's increasingly in doubt as to how real his faith is. Certainly seems real to hear him tell it. He sounds pretty darn convincing. But in the end, he always seems to revert to a selfish person. Not so bad that he'll betray the group, I don't think. That would probably go too far. Probably best to leave it in doubt throughout. Perhaps raise the suspicion now and then that he might betray the party, though. Etc.

[Lemernis]

FYI, here's a link to a map of Shou Lung and Wa.

[Lemernis]

If for no other reason than it's simply interesting in itself, I'm looking into what sort of analog there is in ancient China to the Japanese Samurai. This after noting that the Kara-Tur source book states that in Shou Lung, the equivalent of a Japanese Samurai is a "knight."

 

I found a figure called the "Yóuxiá" or 'Chinese knight-errant'.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_knight-errant

 

http://sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/44/4401009.pdf

 

Yoshimo is clearly a thief, and seems very comfortable in his own skin as one; and as Kaloree says, he is a morally dubious character. So I do not see him as having been a knight-errant. But one can imagine him having been influenced by knight-errants in his homeland. They are chivalrous characters who roam the land protecting the weak, much like a D&D paladin. But unlike a D&D paladin they do not maintain a rigid obedience to the law of the land. Here's a blurb from the second link:

 

[T]he ideals of knight errantry were justice, altruism, honour, and individual freedom... While the Confucian scholar aimed at order and moderation, and stressed the need for the individual to conform to a rigid pattern of behaviour and to subjugate himself to the family, the knight errant stressed justice and freedom and placed personal loyalty above family loyalty and above law and order... The Confucian regarded obedience to one's sovereign and parents as a sacred duty more important than observance of the law, but would not resort to force in the discharge of such duties; the knight errant, on the other hand, regarded loyalty to a friend as more important than one's duties to one's king and parents, and would not refrain from violence in performing what they considered their moral obligations or what they thought their honour required. In so far as the knight errant may be said to have had an ideology, it had more affinity with Taoism than with any other school of thought... It was to Taoism that some knights errant turned for guidance, as recorded in the biographies of several of them. This is hardly surprising: both Taoism and knight errantry came into being before Confucianism became the established official ideology, and both emphasized individualism and freedom from social bonds. To risk a generalization: if the obverse side of the Chinese character is represented by Confucianismâ€â€moderate, realistic, and conservative, then its reverse side is represented by Taoist philosophy, knight errantry, and various unorthodox artists and writers: romantic, individualist, and rebellious.

 

And this is in many ways more like the Lawful Neutral alignment, where the individual adheres to a personal code above all else.

 

Anyway, again, I want to come up with a satisfying explanation to integrate the following aspects of Yoshimo: 1) he is a thief, and apparently has no qualms about it, 2) his conversion to a western god of self-sacrifice, and 3) his being a swordsman (though not necessarily a Samurai per se).

 

One possible way to do that is for him to have admired this sort of 'knight-errant' figure in his homeland. And here I'm still pursuing the notion that Yoshi was a more or less standard rogue in Shou Lung; a thief involved with a tong, who in time grew very uncomfortable with the oppressive treatment of regular folks by both criminal organizations. Leaving his homeland to wander the greater world as a bounty hunter could be inspired by the knight-errant.

 

And another thought occurs to me now--if we tie this in to the ToB quest, Yoshimo would have a powerful reason for having to flee his homeland: there is a bounty on his own head there! It might be neat to have another encounter where some monks come after him.

 

(Heh! remember the 60's TV show Kung Fu? Something along those lines, although a reason less serious than killing a member of the royal family.)

 

Yoshi might also have been involved in a simple blood feud between noble families, i.e., clans. But that doesn't work as well toward giving him his thief skills. When Yoshimo introduces himself he says he came from Kara-Tur "years ago." He is however a level 7 thief. That's actually a pretty high level in the AD&D universe, and it takes quite a while to get there. To me anyway, it would make the most sense if he already had developed considerable thieving skills when he left Kara-Tur. And according to his soundset, he really does seem quite at home with himself when it comes to stealing.

[lac]

We've been thinking that Yoshimo's request to have his heart taken to the Temple of Illmater shows a particular devotion to Illmater. I woke up thinking, maybe it doesn't. Many cultures have the myth of somebody who is 'too evil to go to heaven, but too good to go to hell', and who ends up stuck in between after death.

 

Now it is my understanding that in the FR world, access to the afterlife is completely dependent on some God or Goddess being willing to 'take you up' as it were. The elves get an institutionalised version, but humans are dependent on a one-time direct intervention of a God.

 

So, Yoshi was dying, and knew he was dying. What God would take him up? Maybe his attraction to Illmater is opportunistic, based on the fact that Illmater serves as a 'God of last resort', known to take up all sorts of 'marginal' people -- the poor, the disposessed, and perhaps even rogues from Kara-Tur who have made a particular mess of their lives.

 

Just an idea

Laura

[Icendoan]

Now, that is interesting. We might have to rework our geas removal, but the god of last resort method would also work there. We could use that to make Yoshimo more of a strategist than a mishap. He would play on some God with a hatred of Irenicus and his magic to remove this Geas.

 

I do not like that Yoshimo much.

 

Hmmm, this is interesting. What is that wall of the faithless thing in Sigil? It sounds horrific.

 

Icen

[Lemernis]

It's true that I might be reading more genuine devotion to Ilmater into that dying wish than Yoshimo actually has. I just figured that if Yoshimo actually is a devout worshipper, then that contrasts rather sharply with the roguish aspects of his character. On the one hand, Yoshi seems quite comfortable both as a thief and bounty hunter. Yet on the other hand, for those thiefly activities, in so many instances one would think it should be quite difficult for Yoshi to uphold the Ilmaterian dogma to always protect the weak and oppressed above all else. I like this, though! I think that tension makes him a more multi-dimensional and complex character. And as I've been saying, it could reflect a deeper, more internal struggle within him. In his ongoing effort to reconcile these two outer aspects of his life, he is (unconsciously) trying to bring two inner, disconnected aspects of himself together. Now, no way would I say all that in the mod!--he won't be psychoanalyzed. But the underlying premise in writing the character is that that would in fact be what's driving him.

 

Anyhoo, I've been sifting through all of Yoshimo's dialogues for any futher references to Ilmater. I found only two, which occur in the talk before the fight where the PC is forced to kill Yoshi:

 

"...I can wither and die for failing to kill you, or I can fall in battle, and pray that my heart will find purchase with Ilmater."

 

"...I have but two options. A slow and painful death for failing to kill you, or a swift one in battle, and may my heart find purchase with Ilmater for these sins."

 

But I'm unable to find Yoshi's dialogue where he utters his dying wish that his heart be taken to Ilmater. And when the heart is delivered, I'm curious also whether the priest of Ilmater might remark whether Yoshi was a devout member of the church. But I'm not sure where to even look for that dialogue with DLTCP.

 

I did find something that suggests a need to change some of our dialgues for Yoshi. In our dialogues we had written that Yoshi took the contract with Irenicus impulsively, because he was blinded by greed, before he did his usual research. However, in the vanilla game Yoshi confesses that he had been in league with Irenicus well before he was called upon to spy on the PC!

 

"I can't fight it, <CHARNAME>, I can't. I was in his service first, and all those that follow him must undergo a Geas. I was willing at the time... but now..."

 

"My service was promised long before I was called on to do this! I did not know what would come! I did not know what a filthy creature Irenicus truly was! I did not!"

 

Now, he could be lying, actually. Who knows. But I think we take him at him at his word here. We can overwrite this aspect of the vanilla story, of course. But I think it would be best to remain faithful to the vanilla backstory.

 

So, we will need to revise our 'Yoshi's Confession' dialogue with a backstory for how he came to work for Irenicus "long before" he was called upon to spy on the PC. (And who knows, maybe we can weave this together with the ToB quest?)

[Icendoan]

Hmm, and our Tongs would be a good thing to connect with. IE, Yoshimo was part of a Tong that Irenicus bought service from, and all that.

 

ToB: The tong found out that Yoshimo had failed in his task, and so on.

 

Icen

[Lemernis]

Now, that is interesting. We might have to rework our geas removal, but the god of last resort method would also work there. We could use that to make Yoshimo more of a strategist than a mishap. He would play on some God with a hatred of Irenicus and his magic to remove this Geas.

 

I do not like that Yoshimo much.

 

Hmmm, this is interesting. What is that wall of the faithless thing in Sigil? It sounds horrific.

 

Icen

 

We could rewrite the 'Yoshi's Confession' dialogue, but if he is a devout Ilmaterian then his getting the Geas removed is far more convincing.

 

In fact it is completely unconvincing if Yoshi's faith isn't heartfelt! There's no way Ilmater will remove the Geas if Yoshi is not truly a member of the faithful, right? So we would have to dream up a compeltely different means of getting the Geas removed. And that is a major rewrite.

 

Myself, I do find that Yoshi being a sincere follower of Ilmater does work well for developing the character, and the mod's plotline. I think it makes for some very intruiging tensions within him. My own feeling is that the vanilla game's (firm) suggestion that Yoshi is a sincerely devout worshipper of Ilmater is something we should capitalize on.

 

If some more satisfying direction for the character can be found, we'll consider it. But we're essentially talking about scrapping the foundations of what we have already developed so far. Probably rewriting over 50% of the dialogue--which is hardly something I would be thrilled about (even if the new ideas to replace the old ones were excellent, tbh. I only have so much time to work on this stuff...)

[lac]

Could you keep the dialogs, or even most of the dialogs if Yoshi was able to _fool_ the Priests of Illmater that he was more devout than he was? Such a feat might not be beyond the silvertonged liar.

 

I guess the nagging thing that has always bothered me about the 'give my heart to

Illmater' business is that Illmater has never struck me as the sort of God who would be interested in having the hearts of his devout followers. So it always struck me that it was one final pose, a final flamboyant gesture, for Yoshi. Or perhaps even -- I dare you not to take me up after all that I have done for you.

 

But that's my last on the subject. I most definitely don't want you to have to rewrite the whole mod because I woke up with an idea this morning.

 

Laura

[Icendoan]

Yes, it is one thing to fool a priest, it is another to fool a God. When speaking to Rillifane, you cannot finish a sentence, because he read your mind, lying to it won't work.

 

All suggestions are very welcome, you understand.

 

A rewrite may not be a very good thing to do, and we can use these different Yoshimos to make his character more 3d, keeping his possibly 'devout' faith in the first dialogues, and possibly later showing any true colours he may have.

 

Icen

[BigRob]

Kara-turans have a less personal relationship with their gods than Farunians do and don't generally have one patron. Yoshimo might have a genuine faith in Ilmater if he views Ilmater as a western personification of Kwan Ying, the Kara-turan goddess of mercy. Of course, he might also have genuinely have converted to the worship of Ilmater for his own reasons, if you want to go that route.

 

 

Hmmm, this is interesting. What is that wall of the faithless thing in Sigil? It sounds horrific.

The Wall of the Faithless is in the City of Bones, located in Hades, which is where Kelemvor holds court as the god of death. Basically, any person who dies without believing in the gods gets taken to the wall and their soul is cemented onto it with all of the rest of the faithless to serve as a fortification for the City of Bones. The mortar for the wall is a kind of moss that paralyses the souls and grows into them, slowly melting them into the material of the wall and the neighbouring "bricks"as the weight of the wall slowly crushes them.

[lac]

I woke up with another idea about how to get Yoshi to become a worshipper of Illmater.

 

We start out with evil Yoshi. His job is to gain the confidence of people so that he can spy on them/betray them (possibly as part of his job working for Irenicus). As part of his efforts to appear trustworthy, he decides to pose as a devout worshipper of Illmater, simply because it will help make other people trust him.

 

But you know about Pascal's wager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

 

This is not about word games. If all it took to get to Christian heaven was to assert that God exists, then the notion of an irate Deity rejecting those Christians who make Pascal's wager on the grounds that 'we don't want any more smart asses around here' makes sense. But, at least according to Pascal, the way you live your life 'assuming that God exists' will precisely be the sort of way that will lead you to genuine faith. So if you sincerely make the wager, you will end up a Devout Christian through the course of your life. Faith for Pascal is not a list of postulates you rationally assert you 'believe in', but rather a condition of one's soul that you get, among other things, by living a proper life.

 

It would be possible to extend this concept to the worship of Ilmater. Thus, even though Yoshi was not sincere in his initial worship of Illmater, over time, and through the performance of what from Illmater's perspective amounts to good deeds, Yoshi could end up having his life leading him to genuine faith, and genuine devotion.

 

Now, as far as I know Pascal never wrote about what would happen to those who had taken his wager, and then died before they had lived long enough for the wager to have completely transformed them into Christians. But I suspect that those who died under such conditions would die worried.

 

Does this sound like a 'bring my heart to Illmater' condition? For a dying Yoshi who doesn't know if his faith is _enough_?