On Beholders

[Guest Glabro]

I noticed in SCSII:s notes that the author spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make the Shield of Balduran balanced against beholders, so I thought I'd post my thoughts on how Beholders should be improved.

 

I spent quite a bit of time trying to find a way to make sure that Beholders aren't either totally overpowered or completely inept.

 

Currently, beholders seem to be able to shoot all 9 rays in rapid succession at any target. This, I think, is a bit much, considering they can only target one "arc" with three rays. I gave the rays a speed of 1 instead of 0, meaning they are able to launch six over a round.

 

Secondly, the beholders' Anti-magic cone is not that well implemented. In PNP antimagic is quite strong, and should suppress any spells, including spell protections / deflections / immunities - I gave them that ability, as well as the ability to remove summons. However, I reduced the "miscast" penalty to a mere 1 second - enough to disrupt spellcasting, but not make casters impotent.

The anti-magic ray is problematic, since normally the beholder would have to choose between firing rays or anti-magic at an arc for the round - and the effects would be suppressed only so long as the anti-magic eye is functional, not dispelled outright - I just don't know of a better solution.

 

Next up, I figured that the way to be protected from beholder rays from PnP is simply to close your eyes. Therefore, a good solution for simulating this is a hood / blindfold helmet item, available cheaply in thievery stores, at least.

The blindfold would protect from gaze attacks, but render the wearer blind.

I figured that the telekinesis eye might be an exception to the other eyes, as it can be used on inanimate objects (which hardly need eyes to be susceptible), and could affect blindfolded persons. Also, the Shield of Balduran would lose its reflectiveness property (what beholder is stupid enough to gaze at a mirror with a disintegrate ray anyway?), but would simply give the wearer protection from the rays without blindness, though with a -1 or -2 penalty to ac against monsters with Gaze attacks. The Cloak of Mirroring could be similar, without any penalties, of course.

 

 

Finally, the Beholders need a way to fight all those blindfolded, protected characters besides with Telekinesis: they need to be able to use their bite attacks, and those might benefit from a small boost in Thaco and damage - the mouth is quite big and nasty, even if this deviates a bit from PnP. Luckily, Xyx's Beholder Stuff contained an improved beholder script that makes use of these attacks when needed.Xyx's Beholder Stuff

 

Anyway, these ideas helped make beholder fights more meaningful - maybe SCSII can benefit from some of it?

[DavidW]

I don't think PnP beholders need to make eye contact to use their powers - at least, I don't see anything in the rulebooks suggesting so.

 

More generally, my normal rule for SCS was to try to be as faithful as possible to the in-game rules, not necessarily to the PnP rules. So I don't really mind that they can use all their rays in a narrow arc; equally, I don't really want to change their antimagic ray from what BG2 provides.

[Guest Glabro]

I don't think PnP beholders need to make eye contact to use their powers - at least, I don't see anything in the rulebooks suggesting so.

 

More generally, my normal rule for SCS was to try to be as faithful as possible to the in-game rules, not necessarily to the PnP rules. So I don't really mind that they can use all their rays in a narrow arc; equally, I don't really want to change their antimagic ray from what BG2 provides.

 

An explanation on Gaze Attacks

 

That is assuming the eye rays are considered gaze attacks - the SRD doesn't show the beholder (must be a proprietary monster), I thought I checked this last night from the MM, but am not sure. At the very least, the game (BG2) refer to them as Gaze attacks, and several items, like the Shield of Balduran, work because they allow the wearer to avert their eyes from the beholder.

 

Of course, I understand if you wish to stick closely to what BG2 provides - that the beholder rays are spells that can be defeated with spell immunity / turning etc.

 

Anyway, despite anything else, the Beholders should at the very least have a credible bite attack to be able to do something against targets immune to their rays (usually mages in the normal game, so it actually matters quite a bit). This is, of course, a scripting issue. (Apologies if this already works in SCSII - I can't be 100% sure that I didn't install Questpacks's beholder script after SCSII, but I think I didn't).

[Guest newuser]

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods from Pocketplane contains Item Nerfs & Balancing that reduces the chance of deflecting Beholder Rays to 60%. I think this is a good solution, isn't it?

[DavidW]

Zyraen's Miscellaneous Mods from Pocketplane contains Item Nerfs & Balancing that reduces the chance of deflecting Beholder Rays to 60%. I think this is a good solution, isn't it?

 

I don't believe it actually works as advertised, unfortunately... the 60% is determined when you equip the shield, not on a per-hit basis.

[Salk]

I think Glabro's arguments are reasonable and that Beholders' eye attack should be considered "gaze attack" just like the basilisk's.

 

The fact that the rays come off the eyes seems a supportive enough base for it.

[DavidW]

I think Glabro's arguments are reasonable and that Beholders' eye attack should be considered "gaze attack" just like the basilisk's.

 

The fact that the rays come off the eyes seems a supportive enough base for it.

 

Bullets come from guns; that doesn't mean you need to see the gun to be hit by it.

 

I'm not at all minded to do this: there's no evidence in BG2 that it works this way and both 2nd and 3rd edition D&D PnP rules are perfectly clear that it's a beam, not a gaze attack.

[Guest Guest_Drelnza_*]

I think Glabro's arguments are reasonable and that Beholders' eye attack should be considered "gaze attack" just like the basilisk's.

 

The fact that the rays come off the eyes seems a supportive enough base for it.

 

I completely disagree, Beholder rays were never considered gaze attacks in 2nd Ed D&D. You never fought Beholders by avoiding their gaze like you did the Medusa.

I like the current implementation, beholders and terrifyingly difficult creatures to defeat - as they should be.

[Jarno Mikkola]

The Potion of Mirrored Eyes never reflected the basilisk attack...

Nor is the Beholder attacks area effective like the Gaze attacks should be...

 

So, I do support the current -lementation with an Imp.

[Guest Glabro]

I'm not at all minded to do this: there's no evidence in BG2 that it works this way and both 2nd and 3rd edition D&D PnP rules are perfectly clear that it's a beam, not a gaze attack.

 

Except the shield of Balduran works because it enables you to avert your eyes from the rays, and I've seen at least one other item that works on the same principle - though that might or might not have been added by a mod (darkveil).

 

Of course, it's true that the spell blindness does not help against Beholders in BG2. So, if you go the route of eyes being inconsequential, simply make the Shield of Balduran have a % chance of deflecting a ray (depending on coverage and the accuracy of the beholder, of course , as it cannot have a 100% chance of protecting its user.

 

 

I like the current implementation, beholders and terrifyingly difficult creatures to defeat - as they should be.

 

However, here's the problem. If nothing is done, beholders are indeed terrifyingly difficult - in fact, I'd hazard a guess that if you're not immune, you won't survive (at least anywhere close to the levels you're supposed to be fighting the beholders at), except with exploits and dirty tricks, possibly.

 

On the other hand, if you're immune to their rays (fairly easy to accomplish with a mage) they present no challenge whatsoever to defeat, as they simply keep blasting at you with their rays, even if it's a wimpy wizard who happens to be immune. Alternatively, if you have the Shield of Balduran, again they present no challenge.

 

That's why some measures should be taken, if only to make them aggressively attack targets immune to their rays in melee - I bet they have enough spellcraft to know when this is the case.

 

Personally, I found the fights against them pretty fun with my modifications. Stumbling into the fight blindly fits with the whole "Unseeing Eye" theme, and made killing them a challenge, as they kept biting and telekineting me as I wildly flailed about in order to hit them.

 

So in summary, my suggestions: make the shield of Balduran not a sure-fire thing, and script beholders to fight in melee, too. Gauths have a 3d4 bite damage in melee in 2nd e - fitting for the maw it has. Beholders should probably have the same or 3d6 even - a deviation, perhaps, but again, fitting.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Of course, it's true that the spell blindness does not help against Beholders in BG2. So, if you go the route of eyes being inconsequential, simply make the Shield of Balduran have a % chance of deflecting a ray (depending on coverage and the accuracy of the beholder, of course , as it cannot have a 100% chance of protecting its user.

It's not 100% sure, as some of the beholders have telekinesis eye, which they us to remove the shield.

Of course the lesser once should use the bite attacks...

 

And about the shield and mirroring etc. If the Shield has a magic mirror in it build just for beholders, of course it would shield the user... because the mirror is magical, not because you can use the shield to blind yourself... so the magic in the shield mirrors the ray, not the shape of it, or the blindness-view etc. factors.

[DrAzTiK]

multiple glitterdust works pretty well vs beholders (you can put 2 in a minor sequençer or use one while out of range of beholders) .

[Ardanis]

Myself, I too doubt beholders' rays are a gaze attack. Sure, there're only so much eye beam emitters in media designed for mature people who know some physics and biology, so that does feel stupid a bit. But I'm inclined to assume that's still the cause.

 

Various DnD art suggests the same, too.

[DavidW]

I'm not at all minded to do this: there's no evidence in BG2 that it works this way and both 2nd and 3rd edition D&D PnP rules are perfectly clear that it's a beam, not a gaze attack.

 

Except the shield of Balduran works because it enables you to avert your eyes from the rays,

 

Does it? I don't see anything in the description.

 

Of course, it's true that the spell blindness does not help against Beholders in BG2. So, if you go the route of eyes being inconsequential, simply make the Shield of Balduran have a % chance of deflecting a ray (depending on coverage and the accuracy of the beholder, of course , as it cannot have a 100% chance of protecting its user.

 

This is actually very hard to implement (see my previous note about Zyraen's attempt).

 

I like the current implementation, beholders and terrifyingly difficult creatures to defeat - as they should be.

 

However, here's the problem. If nothing is done, beholders are indeed terrifyingly difficult - in fact, I'd hazard a guess that if you're not immune, you won't survive (at least anywhere close to the levels you're supposed to be fighting the beholders at), except with exploits and dirty tricks, possibly.

 

I don't think that's right: I've done it. It takes a lot of high-damage fast-attack magic, careful use of magic-resistance items, and a certain amount of tolerance to casualties.

 

Actually, to be fair that's using mage immunity spells along with the SCS component that lets beholders burn through protection spells.

[Ilyich]

If you put a shield directly between your face and your opponent, you wouldn't be able to see it, thus it would enable you to avert your eyes.