Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

For some reason, new WS kinda feels like Stalker to me. I like it, and am inclined to equip him with daggers. On the other hand, I feel that Chain/Splint mail is something this kit badly needs, at least in BG1.

I agree. I am inclined to use weapons with a fast speed factor and I think it would be best to dual wield with the Wizard Slayer to maximize the effect of Breaching Strike.

Yep, with IR making weapon speed matter I do imagine Wizard Slayers favoring light and/or fast weapons. That being said, unlike vanilla you have another option, which is actually even better imo, use bows! You'll have the range and initiative to quickly target the mage from afar (no need to close in) and more time to dodge incoming spells with Inner Focus.

 

Btw, despite my unmatched hate for dual classes, I guess Wizard Slayer->Thief can be extremely effective.

 

On the other hand, I feel that Chain/Splint mail is something this kit badly needs, at least in BG1.

KR's Wizard Slayer need to move fast and hit fast. IR makes medium/heavy armors impose penalties to both movement speed and weapon speed.

 

Balance-wise the WS has to sacrifice something in exchange for his omnipotence against mages, else it would simply be too good, especially in a game where mages tend to be the most dangerous opponents. They can destroy non-warriors with their Grand Mastery, and they can still say their own even against other more heavily armored warriors imo (light armor + high DEX is a valid choice even in terms of AC within an Item Revision environment), but what they can't do is tanking, or facing true Fighters, Berserkers and the like in 1vs.1 melee duels.

[Kalindor]

I had assumed Breaching Strike only functioned with melee strikes, but it never says such in the description. I agree that ranged weapons are a good choice.

 

I think the armor restriction is necessary. It is difficult in the early game, but their value will only improve as the value of wizards improves.

[kreso]

All above is true. However, in-game things seem a bit different. The best armor for them in BG1 is AC5 or AC6. That's bad, considering that SCS fighters generaly use bows and have good THAC0. In BG2, sure, Leather armors (With Item Rev) are exellent. Shadow Dragon, Night's Gift (or Embrace?!) etc. In BG1 Leather-wise AC is a big issue. You can improve it (Spell Revisions Barksin, Defensive Harmony, Prot Evil etc) but still....They simply (IMO) resemble thieves/asassins/stalkers a bit too much. A full plate is still a much better protective item than say, Item Revisions best Chain in both BG1 and BG2.

[Demivrgvs]

I had assumed Breaching Strike only functioned with melee strikes, but it never says such in the description. I agree that ranged weapons are a good choice.

Well it's a direct upgrade of Disruptive Strike which explicitly says "melee or ranged hit", I can easily repeat the statement if you think it's unclear.

 

Now that I think about it, to avoid making bows the "obviously better pick" and keep both melee and ranged WS equally valid options, we might think to make Disruptive Strikes slightly more "disruptive" in melee or make ranged Strikes slightly harder (e.g. -2 penalty to attack rolls). That being said, melee weapons such as IR's Bala's Axe, The Drinker and Namarra should be really tempting for a WS.

 

I think the armor restriction is necessary. It is difficult in the early game, but their value will only improve as the value of wizards improves.

Indeed. I'll think about allowing medium armors, but I'm kinda convinced they really need this noticeable disadvantage in martial combat.

 

P.S Side note: for the next IR I will obviously take into account that WS need good light equipment, and I already put my eyes on a rather weak, uninspired BG1 light armor which could be revised to be "WS-friendly".

[kreso]

I had assumed Breaching Strike only functioned with melee strikes, but it never says such in the description. I agree that ranged weapons are a good choice.

Well it's a direct upgrade of Disruptive Strike which explicitly says "melee or ranged hit", I can easily repeat the statement if you think it's unclear.

 

Now that I think about it, to avoid making bows the "obviously better pick" and keep both melee and ranged WS equally valid options, we might think to make Disruptive Strikes slightly more "disruptive" in melee or make ranged Strikes slightly harder (e.g. -2 penalty to attack rolls). That being said, melee weapons such as IR's Bala's Axe, The Drinker and Namarra should be really tempting for a WS.

 

I think the armor restriction is necessary. It is difficult in the early game, but their value will only improve as the value of wizards improves.

Indeed. I'll think about allowing medium armors, but I'm kinda convinced they really need this noticeable disadvantage in martial combat.

 

P.S Side note: for the next IR I will obviously take into account that WS need good light equipment, and I already put my eyes on a rather weak, uninspired BG1 light armor which could be revised to be "WS-friendly".

 

Thinking about it, and I'm more and more inclined that it's ok to keep Leather restriction. Will try it more in-game and see how it goes.

[Kalindor]

Well it's a direct upgrade of Disruptive Strike which explicitly says "melee or ranged hit", I can easily repeat the statement if you think it's unclear.

 

It's fine as-is. I just made a false assumption.

 

Now that I think about it, to avoid making bows the "obviously better pick" and keep both melee and ranged WS equally valid options, we might think to make Disruptive Strikes slightly more "disruptive" in melee or make ranged Strikes slightly harder (e.g. -2 penalty to attack rolls).

 

If you choose to do this, I would opt for the "more disruptive" option because I have a hard time envisioning why it would make ranged attacks more difficult.

[Eidolon]

]I feared this could happen, but I hoped/expected the instantaneous activation and 6 seconds duration to be enough to be sure you can use it effectively (and immunity to all spells surely can't underpowered can it? ).

 

The idea is that you pause the game and activate it only in desperate situations, and the "no casting time" is supposed to allow you to activate it even after the spellcasting is ended. Are spell projectiles so fast that cannot activate the ability fast enough when you recognize the incoming spell?

 

To be honest I've yet to test it thoroughly, as you rightly said it's all a matter of timing. I guess it's not for the faint of hearth, though, when you see a SR Finger of Death flying towards your PC and hectically click Inner focus hoping veryveryvery hard :-)

Maybe not "underpowered", but "less of the killer feat I'd imagined it to be"

 

Between my HLAs ideas there was a passive "Superstitious" HLA which granted immunity to low level spells, both harmful spells and useful buffs though. Time will tell, but I do take it into consideration.

I like that!

[Kalindor]

Fighter kit revisions seems as good a place to mention this as any: single weapons style needs some serious help. Since you are tinkering with grandmastery, it does not seem too beyond the pale to consider adding some bonus to single weapon style. Perhaps criticals on a roll of 18-20 with two stars?

 

Observations:

-Fighters must now wait until level 3 to gain their extra 1/2 attack per round. The beginning of the game is slightly more challenging as a result. It doesn't last long, though.

-The Barbarian seems very powerful in the early game due to the extra full attack per round afforded by their rage. This is not counterbalanced by the armor penalty as you do not get plate armor early on.

-The fighter's level cap in BG:EE is level 8. This means that they cannot achieve grandmastery. For comparison (normal weapons, 18STR):

A max level fighter with high mastery has 2 attacks per round and a THAC0 of 8.

A dual-wielding max level fighter with mastery has 3 attacks per round and a THAC0 of 10/12.

A dual-wielding max level enraged barbarian with specialization has 7/2 attacks per round and a THAC0 of 12/12. (Enrange doesn't seem to affect off-hand THAC0).

A max level kensai with high mastery has a THAC0 of 6.

 

Balance suggestions, based on BG:EE level cap:

-Kensai gains +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 speed factor, and Ki. Loses 5-8 AC points and immunity to critical hits. Seems like a questionable trade, but not absurdly bad. Consider moving Enduring Ki into the BG:EE level range. Also consider granting them generalized proficiency at level 5 like the unkitted fighter.

-Wizard Slayer gains +2-4 save vs. spells, 3 uses of Disrupting Strike and one use of Inner Focus. Loses 3-5 AC points and fighter abilities. This also seems like a bad trade. Consider granting a second use of Inner Focus in the BG:EE level range.

-Berserker seems fine. It is very powerful but the loss of control seems to balance it. You need a cleric nearby in most difficult fights. A frenzied, enraged berserker is a sight to behold. However, I think the cumulative -4 penalty to AC for frenzy and enrage is quite steep in BG1. Even gibberlings can hit you relatively regularly with splint mail, 18DEX, and a large shield when you have -4AC.

-Barbarian's rage is very powerful due to the extra full attack per round. This means an enraged barbarian can get more attacks per round than anything else. Combined with Cleave, they just mow down groups of enemies. Their power while enraged is comparable to a berserker but without that troublesome loss of control. The +2AC from their rage and the -4 from the Berserker's obliterates the lack of heavy armor penalty. Their lack of immunities to disabling magic is really their main downside when compared to the Berserker, but this is not that big of an issue considering the Berserker can disable itself. If I were to suggest nerfing any of the fighter classes for the early game, it would be the Barbarian. If you choose to do this, consider moving 1/2 of the Barbarian's attacks per round bonus to Greater Rage or removing the AC bonus from their rage. Also consider a THAC0 penalty with missile weapons while enraged.

 

As a parting note, it seems odd that both the Berserker and Barbarian have distinct abilities that are called "Rage." Maybe renaming the Barbarian's to "Battle Fury" or "Onslaught" would minimize confusion.

[kreso]

Observations:

-Fighters must now wait until level 3 to gain their extra 1/2 attack per round. The beginning of the game is slightly more challenging as a result. It doesn't last long, though.

This is nice.

The Barbarian seems very powerful in the early game due to the extra full attack per round afforded by their rage. This is not counterbalanced by the armor penalty as you do not get plate armor early on.

I don't know about BG:EE, but there is a Plate in Nashkel, a ring worth 9k(!) gold near Friendly Arm Inn. You can buy one without ever resting, and very little, in any fighting involved.

The fighter's level cap in BG:EE is level 8. This means that they cannot achieve grandmastery.

It's pretty much an Epic feat in PnP. Lvl 8 Fighter should not have it.

 

 

Balance suggestions, based on BG:EE level cap:

-Kensai gains +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 speed factor, and Ki. Loses 5-8 AC points and immunity to critical hits. Seems like a questionable trade, but not absurdly bad.

5-8 AC penalty + no immunity to criticals!? Kensai never had such immunity. Only Ioun stones and Helmets provide it. I read somewhere that tis will be removed eventualy, but this is off-topic. This turns him into a goblin with better THAC0, HP and damage. I'm against it.

Consider moving Enduring Ki into the BG:EE level range

I like this idea. 6 seconds is really short.

Also consider granting them generalized proficiency at level 5 like the unkitted fighter

No. Wepon master, one with his weapon of choice.

Wizard Slayer gains +2-4 save vs. spells, 3 uses of Disrupting Strike and one use of Inner Focus. Loses 3-5 AC points and fighter abilities. This also seems like a bad trade. Consider granting a second use of Inner Focus in the BG:EE level range.

Like it.

Berserker seems fine. It is very powerful but the loss of control seems to balance it. You need a cleric nearby in most difficult fights. A frenzied, enraged berserker is a sight to behold. However, I think the cumulative -4 penalty to AC for frenzy and enrage is quite steep in BG1. Even gibberlings can hit you relatively regularly with splint mail, 18DEX, and a large shield when you have -4AC.

Barbarian's rage is very powerful due to the extra full attack per round

It is. But it doesn't last long. And fatigue is bad.

This means an enraged barbarian can get more attacks per round than anything else.

It's balanced at higher levels with Grandmastery (which has no fatigue).

Combined with Cleave, they just mow down groups of enemies.

As they should.

Their power while enraged is comparable to a berserker but without that troublesome loss of control.

They still can't drink potions. Makes a big difference when you see a SCS mage casting Chaos and can't drink a protective potion, or healing.

The +2AC from their rage and the -4 from the Berserker's obliterates the lack of heavy armor penalty.

Rage last really short. Berseker has much better AC with Full plate.

Their lack of immunities to disabling magic is really their main downside when compared to the Berserker, but this is not that big of an issue considering the Berserker can disable itself.

He isn't "disabled".

If I were to suggest nerfing any of the fighter classes for the early game, it would be the Barbarian. If you choose to do this, consider moving 1/2 of the Barbarian's attacks per round bonus to Greater Rage or removing the AC bonus from their rage. Also consider a THAC0 penalty with missile weapons while enraged.

I'm against it. As I said several times, Rage lasts shorter than most battles do.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks guys, that is exactly the feedback I need.

 

Single Weapon Style

Fighter kit revisions seems as good a place to mention this as any: single weapons style needs some serious help. Since you are tinkering with grandmastery, it does not seem too beyond the pale to consider adding some bonus to single weapon style. Perhaps criticals on a roll of 18-20 with two stars?

I really cannot do nothing about weapon styles, they are hardcoded.

 

Fighter

Fighters must now wait until level 3 to gain their extra 1/2 attack per round. The beginning of the game is slightly more challenging as a result. It doesn't last long, though.

Yep, all fighter kits now have to wait 3rd level to gain that +1/2 apr (except the Barbarian who never gets it back, but gets Cleave in exchange), but now all fighters get new features at 1st level (e.g. the true Fighter gets the two stances), and as soon as I'll implement my revised thac0 tables all warriors will get +1 thac0 at 1st level.

 

Fighter vs. Barbarian: first of all let's start by pointing out that you're comparing a fighter's base combat stats to those of an enraged Barbarian. I do expect the latter to be superior in terms of stats while enraged considering he cannot always count on his rage (nor use it at range), he is fatigued after enraging, and while not enraged he is now clearly inferior to a true Fighter.

 

That being said, you wanted to compare an 8th level Fighter vs. an 8th level Barbarian:

- Fighter's High Mastery gives him a permanent +2 hit/dmg and +1/2 apr

- Barbarian Rage gives -2 penalty to hit, +2 dmg and +1apr

I only see a very slight advantage for the Barbarian if any (+1/2 apr vs. +4 to hit rolls), and you're not taking into account that the Fighter can also gain some sort of combat advantage with Called Shots. Are you still so sure the Barbarian has the clear upper hand?

 

Barbarian

Enrange doesn't seem to affect off-hand THAC0

Very strange, I'll make sure it will.

 

The Barbarian seems very powerful in the early game due to the extra full attack per round afforded by their rage. This is not counterbalanced by the armor penalty as you do not get plate armor early on.

I'm sympathetic to this, though a normal plate mail should be available very early imo if not at the start. I also made barbarians unable to use large shields if that can matter, but yeah, with no heavy armor available the Fighter is at slight disadvantage indeed.

 

Speaking of which, not only we might put remedy to that within IR, but I actually believe charname should have some sort of initial equipment according to his class. A 1st level fighter is not a baby, he is a trained warrior. I don't expect him to start with an expensive full plate, but I really don't see why he should not start with a normal plate mail.

 

Berserker vs. Barbarian

Barbarian's rage is very powerful due to the extra full attack per round. This means an enraged barbarian can get more attacks per round than anything else. Combined with Cleave, they just mow down groups of enemies. Their power while enraged is comparable to a berserker but without that troublesome loss of control.

Mmm, I really disagree on this statement.

 

Let's still assume only BG1. In terms of dodging abilities the Barbarian is indeed superior despite the lack of heavy armor, but:

- Barbarian Rage grants -2 penalty to hit, +2 dmg +1 apr

- Berserker Rage grants +2 hit/dmg on top of High Mastery's +2 hit/dmg and +1/2 apr

 

Add there Frenzy's +2 hit/dmg and +1 apr and I think it's pretty clear that a frenzied Berserker will utterly destroy the Barbarian in a 1vs.1 encounter.

 

Cleave is there because I actually felt the Barbarian was left behind, not the other way around. As you noted, it makes the Barbarian shine against large groups of enemies, but I don't think it can rival the sheer usefulness of Weapon Mastery.

 

Their lack of immunities to disabling magic is really their main downside when compared to the Berserker, but this is not that big of an issue considering the Berserker can disable itself.

Well, he's not really an "auto-disable". One thing is getting charmed, hold, confused, etc. another thing is entering a Frenzy. The way I coded it, unlike PnP Frenzied Berserk, KR's Berserker always start a Frenzy when attacking an opponent and the chance of him turning against the party (e.g. if he's still frenzied after slaying all enemies around him) are very slow, not to mention it would be for no more than a bunch of seconds because I've made the state last very little (exactly for this purpose).

 

Berserker

Berserker seems fine. It is very powerful but the loss of control seems to balance it. You need a cleric nearby in most difficult fights. A frenzied, enraged berserker is a sight to behold. However, I think the cumulative -4 penalty to AC for frenzy and enrage is quite steep in BG1. Even gibberlings can hit you relatively regularly with splint mail, 18DEX, and a large shield when you have -4AC.

I actually expected the Berserker to be too much powerful (especially because of Frenzy's +1 apr), but it sounds like his disadvantages work fine. Good. Speaking of which, how do you feel about the current % chance of entering a Frenzy? Does it trigger too often?

 

As a parting note, it seems odd that both the Berserker and Barbarian have distinct abilities that are called "Rage." Maybe renaming the Barbarian's to "Battle Fury" or "Onslaught" would minimize confusion.

KR's Barbarian Rage is named Whirling Frenzy in PnP, but as you can see it would be even more confusing. If I had to change the name I'd pick something like Adrenaline Surge, but I really don't see a problem with the current status considering they have always been different rages.

 

Kensai

Kensai gains +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 speed factor, and Ki. Loses 5-8 AC points and immunity to critical hits. Seems like a questionable trade, but not absurdly bad.

It's actually +3 to hit/dmg at 8th level. And you're not losing that much AC imo if you take into account bracers (coupled with Kensai's innate bonuses it's almost like having medium armor), that medium/heavy armors limit AC from DEX, and that the Kensai can use Defensive Stance almost for free (for them the small thac0 penalty isn't really an issue). May I ask if you are actually playtesting the class or judging from the class description?

 

Regarding "immunity to critical hits": with the next version of IR helmets will not grant it anymore (it will be a rare feature of selected armors or items). Criticals hits will play a role again in this game, while now almost everyone is immune to them (note that even just Ioun Stones currently make any class immune to them).

 

That being said, the Kensai is indeed supposed to act as a sort of "glass cannon", not as a tank, and KR's Kensai can already tank much much more than vanilla's one.

 

Consider moving Enduring Ki into the BG:EE level range. Also consider granting them generalized proficiency at level 5 like the unkitted fighter.

As Kreso says, weapon versatility would go completely against Kensai's concept. Withi PnP they are actually able to get GM only on a single weapon type .

 

Wizard Slayer

Wizard Slayer gains +2-4 save vs. spells, 3 uses of Disrupting Strike and one use of Inner Focus. Loses 3-5 AC points and fighter abilities. This also seems like a bad trade. Consider granting a second use of Inner Focus in the BG:EE level range.

Getting such good saves (the +2 at 5th level is a +2 vs. all kind of saves, including death, though limited to arcane spells) for worse AC doesn't sound so bad, but I admit that within BG1 it's probably a slightly worse trade.

 

I do think Wizard Slayers need time to shine, because mages not nearly as threatening in BG1 as they are in BG2, and because the difference between light armors and heavy armors is more noticeable within BG1 due to the lack of good magical specimens (usable by all, because thieves actually get the wonderful Shadow Armor).

 

I'll think about it, especially if other players confirm the lack of "power level" within BG1. I'm curious to know how the class performs at mid-high levels instead.

[Mike1072]

That being said, you wanted to compare an 8th level Fighter vs. an 8th level Barbarian

For BG1 balance, consider much earlier levels. Without the expansion, the fighter level cap was 7, so 90% of the game content was designed around you not being close to level 8.

 

The Barbarian seems very powerful in the early game due to the extra full attack per round afforded by their rage. This is not counterbalanced by the armor penalty as you do not get plate armor early on.

I'm sympathetic to this, though a normal plate mail should be available very early imo if not at the start. I also made barbarians unable to use large shields if that can matter, but yeah, with no heavy armor available the Fighter is at slight disadvantage indeed.

 

Speaking of which, not only we might put remedy to that within IR, but I actually believe charname should have some sort of initial equipment according to his class. A 1st level fighter is not a baby, he is a trained warrior. I don't expect him to start with an expensive full plate, but I really don't see why he should not start with a normal plate mail.

I strongly recommend against this. Early plate armour and free equipment are unnecessary cheats. I think the game gives appropriate context for what you start with, and I enjoy not having everything conveniently handed to me at level 1.

[Demivrgvs]

That being said, you wanted to compare an 8th level Fighter vs. an 8th level Barbarian

For BG1 balance, consider much earlier levels. Without the expansion, the fighter level cap was 7, so 90% of the game content was designed around you not being close to level 8.

I agree with you, I was just using the level used by Kalindor. That being said, everything I wrote in that comparison would be IDENTICAL for a 6th level Fighter vs. Barbarian.

 

If the comparison is made at levels 3-5 than the Fighter loses quite a bit more (no High Mastery), while the latter is almost unaffected (no Great Cleave). At those levels an enraged Barbarian has the upper hand imo, but can enrage only 2 times per day, and while not enraged the Fighter has the upper hand.

 

It's at levels 1-2 that the Barbarian might be superior to Fighters imo, mostly because the latter still lack Mastery, and probably still not have heavy armor and/or a large shield. Defensive Stance is pretty much all they have over the Barbarian at those two levels.

 

Speaking of which, not only we might put remedy to that within IR, but I actually believe charname should have some sort of initial equipment according to his class. A 1st level fighter is not a baby, he is a trained warrior. I don't expect him to start with an expensive full plate, but I really don't see why he should not start with a normal plate mail.

I strongly recommend against this. Early plate armour and free equipment are unnecessary cheats. I think the game gives appropriate context for what you start with, and I enjoy not having everything conveniently handed to me at level 1.

What you call "cheat" is actually pretty standard in PnP (every class starts with an appropriate equipment). Anyway, no big deal, mine was just a suggestion, I'm not imposing it.

[kreso]

Hope this thread is for suggestions now.

I tried a Berserker a bit in SoA part of game. One thing bothers me - how their Rage improves - Greater and Mighty Rage. THAC0 bonuses become quite opsolete. Save vs.Death - ok, but situational. I mostly used them to aviod Chaos/Hold person/Charm.

I feel they somehow simply last too short - it resembles Wizard Slayer's Focus too much (wait for spell to be casted, see if it's Enchantment, if yes then Enrage). I would like it (note "I") that fighting in Rage (and consecutively, Frenzy) is their dominant fighting style, not a situational ability best left to counter enchantments.

This may be because of the fact I played with 60 sec Enrage forever, but still.

Suggestion - improve the duration by 10 and 15 seconds, for Greater and Mighty Rage. Original Rage is fine.

[Demivrgvs]

Rage duration

Leaving aside that for a moment I forgot that in vanilla Barbarian Rage lasted 5 rounds but Berserk Rage lasted 10, this is a tricky matter.

 

I feel they somehow simply last too short - it resembles Wizard Slayer's Focus too much (wait for spell to be casted, see if it's Enchantment, if yes then Enrage). I would like it (note "I") that fighting in Rage (and consecutively, Frenzy) is their dominant fighting style, not a situational ability best left to counter enchantments.

I actually agree but:

- if one use of Rage can always cover the entire encounter than you remove its tactical aspect, and you make post-rage fatigue pointless

- non-enraged Frenzy (which still doesn't work in Beta 5) is there to make sure Berserker fighting style remains unpredictable and reckless

- unlike Inner Focus (not the perfect comparison imo) it lasts 5 rounds, not 1, and within BG2 the Berserker has plenty of Rages per day

It may be just me, but with vanilla's duration I really doesn't remember a single time where my Rage expired in a bad time, am I wrong?

 

That being said, I'm sympathetic to this request, and I can probably be persuaded to extend the duration a little (e.g. +9 seconds for each of the two upgrades). Vanilla's 10 rounds instead are too much imo, don't you agree?

[kreso]

Rage duration

Leaving aside that for a moment I forgot that in vanilla Barbarian Rage lasted 5 rounds but Berserk Rage lasted 10, this is a tricky matter.

 

I feel they somehow simply last too short - it resembles Wizard Slayer's Focus too much (wait for spell to be casted, see if it's Enchantment, if yes then Enrage). I would like it (note "I") that fighting in Rage (and consecutively, Frenzy) is their dominant fighting style, not a situational ability best left to counter enchantments.

I actually agree but:

- if one use of Rage can always cover the entire encounter than you remove its tactical aspect, and you make post-rage fatigue pointless

 

True. That's why i suggested +10sec for greater and 15 sec for Mighty Rage improvement. It's still 33/25 % shorter than vanilla where it indeed lasted too long (you're not wrong about it's duration, it's way OP for vannila game. But lots of things are. Cavaliers, Inquisitors, Flail of Ages...aaaaah. Off-topic.sorry)

Also, keep in mind they don't get the benefits of Mighty Rage until TOB.