Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Kalindor]

Furthermore, is it necessary a bad thing the possibility of using rage as a limited Inner Focus (which works only against mind affecting spells)? It doesn't seem so inappropriate...is it just for "balance reasons"?

I do not have a problem with the current implementation, I was just stating why I think the Berserker is the upper-crust fighter kit in BG1. To recap:

a. Offensively identical to a Fighter while not enraged. Overwhelming while frenzied, but have to manage fatigue / loss of control.

b. Can tank as well as a fighter while not enraged. Only missing -2AC from defensive stance (keeps the +2THAC0 though).

c. Can deflect mind-affecting spells like a Wizard Slayer would and remains immune to them for longer.

 

The proposed wind-up time for frenzy would make sense conceptually. Only the criminally insane could fly into a rage at the drop of a pin. It would mitigate the ability to use rage as inner focus, but it is up to you if you think that is worth it. I don't have any problem with the current implementation of rage, like I mentioned.

 

I think points a and b are the more pressing. In my hands, a BG1 Berserker who is not enraged is basically as good as a Fighter. It fights just as well and tanks just as well (or very nearly so if you consider Defensive Stance). I am discounting Called Shot (perhaps unfairly?) because defensive stance + called shot = -6THAC0 and you will not be hitting anything worthwhile in BG1 with -6THAC0. I suppose if you were to hit something with called shot and then enter defensive stance, you could tank that enemy better than a Berserker, but you only have one called shot during BG1 and this strategy would only help against one foe.

 

In BG1, you get only -2AC from defensive stance and called shot only reduces THAC0: no disabling attacks for a duration. As these abilities improve, the Fighter can start to carve a tanking niche relative to the Berserker. The Berserker also cannot use missile weapons, so you can consider a Fighter more versatile in that regard. However, can the Berserker use throwing weapons? If so, that disadvantage is also minimized. In BG1, you also must choose between maximizing your points in a weapon/style or putting points in a missile weapon, so a Fighter who dabbles in missiles will be less effective with his melee.

 

I am not saying the Berserker is better than a Fighter once you get to BG2, but in BG1 it plays in my hands like a Fighter who has the additional option of inducing overpowering offense and immunity to mind-affecting spells. Again, if others' experiences are contrary to this, perhaps I am just not efficient at maximizing the advantages of the Fighter.

[kreso]

Defensive weakness

Kalindor has a point. Ideally the chance to go Frenzy even when not enraged should make the Berserker unreliable as a tank (unless your tank doesn't attack at all, but in that case he would be severely underperforming imo), and the lack of Defensive Stance makes the AC penalty vary from -2 to -4 compared to a Fighter (not to mention Called Shot can make them tank even better by disarming their opponents). Is that not enough? I'm not sure myself, but I probably need more playtesting to judge.

IMO,it's more than enough. He simply doesn't bring anything to to table worth a slot in party. Sure, Rage is good vs Enchantments. But is a huge liability. He might (rarely) kill everything before it expires. If he doesn't (and he might not even survive his Rage/Frenzy, especialy when outnumbered), he's dead meat. Mages tend to have fighters in battle as well, and they tend to simply smack him with arrows, then run a bit away in SCS, wasting much of his Rage time. Mages use invisibitly/mirror image on regular basis. Remember that he can't heal with potions while Rage is active. This fact alone makes him much worse tank than Fighter. He might be good, but I guess it comes at much higher levels. He still seems pale in comparison to all other fighter kits.

Damage - kensai better.

Defence - True fighter much better

Anti-arcane capabilities - WS much better

Survability - Barbarian better

 

Like Kalindor, I do thought about making Berserkers unable to wield shields (maybe only when enraged and/or frenzied - but in the end it would be the same) because I really don't think a Berserker would still use a shield for cover when on a rampage. The only problem is that as Kalindor noticed we already have Kensai not using them at all, Barbarian limited to medium shields, and WS limited to small ones...

I usually dual-wield some heavy/medium weapons (flail, axe, Long sword) anyway. You want high APR with them to trigger Frenzy.

 

Delay rage: Arda is right about PnP but still its implementation within BG would seem strange imo. We don't have a proper animation if we make it require a sort of "casting time", and just applying it with a x seconds delay would seem really odd to most players, don't you think? Furthermore, is it necessary a bad thing the possibility of using rage as a limited Inner Focus (which works only against mind affecting spells)? It doesn't seem so inappropriate...is it just for "balance reasons"?

I stand by my point. It's the weakest of fighter kits. He kills very fast, but dies even faster.

P.S.

I don't know how he'd preform without SCS. With it, he is bad. I remember once he killed my WS while in Frenzy after a long and hard battle (SCS Bandit camp). It was very annoying, last save over 15 minutes ago. It's a chore to keep this guy alive. Sure, you might want to use him as a regular Fighter for most of the time, but what's the point in playing him then?

[Ardanis]

Delay rage: Arda is right about PnP but still its implementation within BG would seem strange imo. We don't have a proper animation if we make it require a sort of "casting time", and just applying it with a x seconds delay would seem really odd to most players, don't you think? Furthermore, is it necessary a bad thing the possibility of using rage as a limited Inner Focus (which works only against mind affecting spells)? It doesn't seem so inappropriate...is it just for "balance reasons"?

It also offers another perspective:

1) wizard casts Chaos - oh crap, get that Inner Focus up now, before it is too late!

2) berserker goes en-frenzied - oh crap, somebody do something now, before it is too late!

[Kalindor]

Sure, Rage is good vs Enchantments. But is a huge liability. He might (rarely) kill everything before it expires.

Perhaps it is just luck on my part, but the Frenzy doesn't seem to last that long and he seems to snap out of it once he starts targeting a teammate.

 

Mages use invisibitly/mirror image on regular basis.

There's nothing that fighters can do about this anyway. This problem is not specific to the Berserker.

 

Remember that he can't heal with potions while Rage is active. This fact alone makes him much worse tank than Fighter.

I am not stating that an enraged Berserker is comparable in tanking to a fighter. I am stating that a non-enraged Berserker is comparable in tanking to a fighter.

 

I usually dual-wield some heavy/medium weapons (flail, axe, Long sword) anyway. You want high APR with them to trigger Frenzy.

This probably contributes to why you are not seeing any tanking ability with the Berserker. If you always rage and dual wield, then it is not going to be as tanky. I am just saying that non-enraged Berserker is just as tanky as a Fighter with the same equipment, excepting the -2AC from Defensive Stance.

 

Sure, you might want to use him as a regular Fighter for most of the time, but what's the point in playing him then?

This makes it sound like there is no point in playing a regular Fighter?

[kreso]

Sure, Rage is good vs Enchantments. But is a huge liability. He might (rarely) kill everything before it expires.

Perhaps it is just luck on my part, but the Frenzy doesn't seem to last that long and he seems to snap out of it once he starts targeting a teammate.

 

Mages use invisibitly/mirror image on regular basis.

There's nothing that fighters can do about this anyway. This problem is not specific to the Berserker.

 

Remember that he can't heal with potions while Rage is active. This fact alone makes him much worse tank than Fighter.

I am not stating that an enraged Berserker is comparable in tanking to a fighter. I am stating that a non-enraged Berserker is comparable in tanking to a fighter.

 

I usually dual-wield some heavy/medium weapons (flail, axe, Long sword) anyway. You want high APR with them to trigger Frenzy.

This probably contributes to why you are not seeing any tanking ability with the Berserker. If you always rage and dual wield, then it is not going to be as tanky. I am just saying that non-enraged Berserker is just as tanky as a Fighter with the same equipment, excepting the -2AC from Defensive Stance.

 

Sure, you might want to use him as a regular Fighter for most of the time, but what's the point in playing him then?

This makes it sound like there is no point in playing a regular Fighter?

 

 

 

If you don't play with SCS, we're playing a different game. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

[Kalindor]

If you don't play with SCS, we're playing a different game. Not that there's anything wrong with it.

 

Nothing in my above post is contingent upon using SCS.

[kreso]

Enemy THAC0 anf proficiencies, number of enemies, AI, battles' duration (very important), mages' spellbook are all SCS dependant. So yes, regarding above posts, everything is related to SCS.

[Kalindor]

Regardless of enemy capabilities, the only difference between an identically-equipped non-enraged Berserker and a Fighter for tanking in BG1 is -2AC (+2THAC0) due to Defensive Stance. That is all I'm trying to say. The Berserker's Frenzy outside of rage does not take effect nearly often enough to make it a problem for tanking.

[Demivrgvs]

Fighter vs. Berserker

Regardless of enemy capabilities, the only difference between an identically-equipped non-enraged Berserker and a Fighter for tanking in BG1 is -2AC (+2THAC0) due to Defensive Stance. That is all I'm trying to say. The Berserker's Frenzy outside of rage does not take effect nearly often enough to make it a problem for tanking.

Ok, assuming I agree on this, though 2 points of AC and the chance to enter a frenzy is still something imo, let's see what could be done about it.

 

First questions: is one these two classes underpowered or overpowered for BG1?

 

Personally, I'm inclined to think the Berserker might be very slightly OP, while the Fighter is pretty much balanced (though I'm not sure of Called Shot's effectiveness within BG1), but kreso seems to think the opposite, and even consider the Berserker the weakest of KR's fighters.

 

Assuming Berserker's offensive capability isn't OP (is it? if yes we just need to nerf Frenzy + Rage, or remove Offensive Stance) and that we need to make sure he cannot tank like a Fighter we could:

- make the Berserker unable to wield shields to fully prevent the class from fighting defensively. I fear players might not like it, but I may be wrong, am I?

- or add a chance to enter a Frenzy when damaged as per PnP. I didn't opted for it, and I would still not vote for it, because it hugely increases the class unreliability (e.g. the Berserker could go on a rampage when hit by a distant archer, and attack the nearby party ignoring the opponents).

What do you think? Have you better ideas?

 

Regarding the Fighter instead, how's Called Shot performing? I was pondering the idea of allowing it to Disarm/Trip at 4th level with an easier save (e.g at +2 bonus) and then make the save more difficult as the fighter grows in level (e.g. no bonus at 8th level, -2 penalty at 12th level, -4 penalty at 16th level). My doubts on this are that a full disarm/trip in BG1 might be too powerful, and that I'd need something else to fill either 10th or 19th level upgrade to this ability. Maybe I'm just overreacting and "-4 thac0 penalty or -50% movement speed" are enough for BG1?

 

@kalindor, may I ask you a sort of mini-review for each kit similar to what kreso did here? It would be very helpful for me.

[kreso]

Fighter vs. Berserker

First questions: is one these two classes underpowered or overpowered for BG1?

Fighter is ok. I am running a test group of

2 True Fighter

Helm Cleric (True seeing is invaluable)

mage/thief

necromancer

to see their full preformance and how useful Tactician trait will be in BG2, eventually TOB. Fighters are now lvl 7, both wielding shields, one with Lawgiver (Chaos immunity) and the other Rift Hammer, both at level 7, AC around -10, more vs.specific modifiers. They preform nicely even if they don't have 18+ str (halflings). I like them, I like how they are played. Haven't been using Called shots yet, apart from battle in front of Cloakwood mines (2 fighters which drink undispellable Magic Shielding potions and can't be disabled + 2 mages with several Chaos castings under MGoI and stoneskins). That was also the hardest battle for now. I fail to see how a Berserker would be OP there (it lasted for more than 2 RL minutes, and he wouldn't have made it shorter. A WS would, however.) It helped a bit (every fighter was hit once only, and I can't say it helped much, our AC was outstanding already.)

 

Personally, I'm inclined to think the Berserker might be very slightly OP, while the Fighter is pretty much balanced (though I'm not sure of Called Shot's effectiveness within BG1), but kreso seems to think the opposite, and even consider the Berserker the weakest of KR's fighters.

I simply fail to see just what exactly makes Berserker OP, even slightly. I can hardly believe that it's Rage or Frenzy. If it's his ability to tank, then a Cleric is also OP. They can have same AC values.

 

Assuming Berserker's offensive capability isn't OP (is it? if yes we just need to nerf Frenzy + Rage, or remove Offensive Stance) and that we need to make sure he cannot tank like a Fighter we could:

- make the Berserker unable to wield shields to fully prevent the class from fighting defensively. I fear players might not like it, but I may be wrong, am I?

- or add a chance to enter a Frenzy when damaged as per PnP. I didn't opted for it, and I would still not vote for it, because it hugely increases the class unreliability (e.g. the Berserker could go on a rampage when hit by a distant archer, and attack the nearby party ignoring the opponents).

What do you think? Have you better ideas?

He already cannot tank as Fighter.

My suggestion:

leave shield option

"add a chace to Frenzy when damaged" - it makes more sense than current implemantation (seeing his own blood and all) but, as I said, he needs buffs, not nerfs. Since you're undecided if he's OP/UP, let's wait for some more reports. All said and done, we can always agree to disagree.

 

Regarding the Fighter instead, how's Called Shot performing? I was pondering the idea of allowing it to Disarm/Trip at 4th level with an easier save (e.g at +2 bonus) and then make the save more difficult as the fighter grows in level (e.g. no bonus at 8th level, -2 penalty at 12th level, -4 penalty at 16th level). My doubts on this are that a full disarm/trip in BG1 might be too powerful, and that I'd need something else to fill either 10th or 19th level upgrade to this ability. Maybe I'm just overreacting and "-4 thac0 penalty or -50% movement speed" are enough for BG1?

 

Not sure....is there in BG1 (apart from Sarevok) a fighter oponnent that dangerous in melee to use Disarm anyway? Guess it could be nice with a Kensai in party... Will post more on this later. What I'm sure of, + 4 THAC0 for attempting a Called shot can be substantially lowered with buffs and potions. Have to try on Sarevok. From memory, he has -9 THAC0. If it serves me well there, it will serve anywhere and be fine as it is.

[Ardanis]

I simply fail to see just what exactly makes Berserker OP, even slightly. I can hardly believe that it's Rage or Frenzy. If it's his ability to tank, then a Cleric is also OP. They can have same AC values.

At 19th level Rage + Frenzy + Offensive Stance provide a total of +2 thaco, -4 AC, +10 damage and +1 apr.

Kensai + Ki is the only thing that comes close.

 

AC penalty is also partially compensated by extra temporary hitpoints.

 

My initial idea was to set the Frenzy chance to 50% per round. 50% is still enough to have basic control over the character, but also enough to make him unable to perform as obediently as a fighter.

 

 

Not sure....is there in BG1 (apart from Sarevok) a fighter oponnent that dangerous in melee to use Disarm anyway?

Drizzt.

[Kalindor]

@kalindor, may I ask you a sort of mini-review for each kit similar to what kreso did here? It would be very helpful for me.

 

Will it still be useful to you if I cannot get to it until Thursday?

[Demivrgvs]

My initial idea was to set the Frenzy chance to 50% per round. 50% is still enough to have basic control over the character, but also enough to make him unable to perform as obediently as a fighter.

Mmm...you mean 50% chance per round regardless of being hit? Keep in mind it also need a minimum duration to seem frenzied and not just schizophrenic (no less the current 2 rounds), thus 50% chance per round pretty much means he's always frenzied. And how would you deal with the whole "go on a rampage against party members because there's an enemy 10 miles away shooting at him"?

 

Would it be fun to play a character you cannot at all most of the time?

 

@kalindor, may I ask you a sort of mini-review for each kit similar to what kreso did here? It would be very helpful for me.

Will it still be useful to you if I cannot get to it until Thursday?

Take all the time you need.

[kreso]

]At 19th level Rage + Frenzy + Offensive Stance provide a total of +2 thaco, -4 AC, +10 damage and +1 apr.

Kensai + Ki is the only thing that comes close.

As it should. Lvl 19 is TOB, however. I don't see this as OP in any way. 10 damage is great, other bonuses not so much. 2 THAC0 is irrelevant, AC penalty will still hurt, +1 APR is nice as well, I agree.

AC penalty is also partially compensated by extra temporary hitpoints.

Partially.

My initial idea was to set the Frenzy chance to 50% per round. 50% is still enough to have basic control over the character, but also enough to make him unable to perform as obediently as a fighter.

I don't know....more APR=more hits=more Frenzy. Basically, I'd like if he was under steroids much more often. I just don't find it appealing to use his Rage in a way Kalindor suggests - to avoid Charms etc. He's a Berserker. I see him as fearless, reckless, hard-hitting fighter who doesn't care that his AC is bad, fights harder with less HP, still manages to control his Rage so he doesn't hit fellow party members, and doesn't run when exhausted. If I were to create this class:

All armor

All heavy and medium melee weapons up to GM, no ranged, light (short sword / daggger ?! Please...) or thrown (don't know is this doable)

All Shields

Rage duration 10 seconds longer at 10th, 20 at 19th level. Exhaustion stays the same for all levels.

Rage and Frenzy cannot be active at the same time. Frenzy can activate while Berserker is fatigued, however, giving additional penalties.

Frenzy activates always and only when below a certain HP percentage(50% Hard to say...?), and forces him to blindly attack nearest enemy (never ally). Higher risk brings more reward.

When in Frenzy:

Original description:

While frenzied, he fights with reckless abandon, blindly attacking anything perceived to be a foe. For 2 rounds, the berserker gains +2 bonus to hit and damage rolls and an additional attack per round, but suffers a -2 penalty to armor class and saves vs. breath.

Changes to :

While frenzied, he fights with reckless abandon, blindly attacking the nearest foe. For 4 rounds, the berserker gains +2 bonus to hit and +4 to damage rolls and an additional attack per round, but suffers a -4 penalty to armor class and -2 to all saving throws.He heals himself for 3 HP/round and becomes immune to healing spells. (Note: very unsure about this last bit, immunity to Heals). At level 10, Frenzy allows the Berserker to heal up to 4HP/round. At level 19, Frenzy gives the Berseker and additional +1 bonuses to hit and damage in addition to 6HP/round regeneration.A Berseker warrior cannot enter Frenzy more than once every 2 turns.

This is of course just a suggestion written in 10 minutes, some toughts to think about.

[Ardanis]

10 damage is great, other bonuses not so much. 2 THAC0 is irrelevant, AC penalty will still hurt, +1 APR is nice as well, I agree.

For a 1st level character we have the following trade-offs:

3) 2 AC - immunities, +2 thaco/damage, 10 HP

4) 4 AC and control - immunities, +4 thaco/damage, 10 HP and +1 ApR

 

For a 10th character we have:

1) 2 AC - immunities, +3 thaco/damage, 20 HP

2) 4 AC and control - immunities, +5 thaco/damage, 20 HP and +1 ApR

 

For a 19th character we have:

1) 2 AC - immunities, +4 thaco/damage, 30 HP

2) 4 AC and control - immunities, +6 thaco/damage, 30 HP and +1 ApR

 

Those look fine to me on paper...

Or do you mean that an uncontrollable berserker is unable to conquer the battlefield all by himself and die promptly from the exhaustion after everything is scattered around in bloody pieces?

 

I think we can indeed add another power-up after he goes below 50% HP, and maybe the second one for bypassing the 25% HP threshold, at the cost of increasing difficulty to control him.

 

While frenzied, he fights with reckless abandon, blindly attacking the nearest foe. For 4 rounds, the berserker gains +2 bonus to hit and +4 to damage rolls and an additional attack per round, but suffers a -4 penalty to armor class and -2 to all saving throws.He heals himself for 3 HP/round and becomes immune to healing spells. (Note: very unsure about this last bit, immunity to Heals). At level 10, Frenzy allows the Berserker to heal up to 4HP/round. At level 19, Frenzy gives the Berseker and additional +1 bonuses to hit and damage in addition to 6HP/round regeneration.A Berseker warrior cannot enter Frenzy more than once every 2 turns.

This is almost a copy of NWN2's Frenzy, and it was my first source of inspiration when we began considering to use the frenzied berserker prestige class.