Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Kalindor]

OK, my level 1 Berserker under the effects of Frenzy just laid an absolute beatdown on the ogre on the road to the Friendly Arm Inn. I am a believer. Jaheira cast Doom at it immediately when I spotted it but the Ogre was slain before the projectile arrived!

 

He also (with Khalid) easily dispatched a Dire Wolf shortly thereafter while taking no damage.

[kreso]

Some more feedback:

Barbarian - I fell in love this with this kit. First 3 levels he seems boring, but with Cleave fun increases tenfold. What I tend to do is kill weaklings first just to get that Cleave bonus for the next round or set up kills for him with ranged weapons/spells. With Rage, Haste, and Cleave, this is a sight to behold. Brilliant work and implementation. He might not be as powerful as a True Fighter in BG1 (more on this below) but is very fun to play. Still don't know if I should dual-wield or carry a big sword. He preforms fine with both. Of Feral senses I'm not sure what it actually does. Detects invisible = see invisible like True Seeing? Regardles, I'd personaly consider this class set. More playing is required ofc, but he seems fine. Maybe, the same tweak I suggested for Berserker - improve duration of Rage at higher levels.

And not to forget, I never missed that 1/2 attack he looses with "Revised Grandmastery" tweak .

 

True Fighter - I guess my previous feedback on him was a bit shallow (as I said, need more time to play.) But. I don't know if this is intended to work like this. If yes, then he gets a straight A grade. His Called Shot ability "Disarm" applies THAC0 penalties. (-2, or +2 depending how you look at it). The thing is, this is cumulative with additional hits, bypasses MR and any other defence apart from AC. Like old Soul Reaver sword...

"Trip" Called Shot seems to be his way of dealing with mages. It's very weak for me prior to level 10 (I simply don't find -50% to movement speed important. I like melee .) However, in BG1, with an Archery themed party, this is simply brutal. After level 10, given mages Save vs. Death is poor, you might just get lucky and knock the bastard out.

I may change my opinion on the "Most versatile class" yet...

Great job so far from modmakers, keep up the good work!

Hoping to see both Rangers and Paladins soon.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

OK, my level 1 Berserker under the effects of Frenzy just laid an absolute beatdown on the ogre on the road to the Friendly Arm Inn. I am a believer. Jaheira cast Doom at it immediately when I spotted it but the Ogre was slain before the projectile arrived!

LOL Let me know if he continues to wreak havoc...I hope he does while still remaining balanced somehow.

 

 

Barbarian

I fell in love this with this kit. First 3 levels he seems boring, but with Cleave fun increases tenfold. What I tend to do is kill weaklings first just to get that Cleave bonus for the next round or set up kills for him with ranged weapons/spells. With Rage, Haste, and Cleave, this is a sight to behold. Brilliant work and implementation. He might not be as powerful as a True Fighter in BG1 (more on this below) but is very fun to play. Still don't know if I should dual-wield or carry a big sword. He preforms fine with both. ... More playing is required ofc, but he seems fine. Maybe, the same tweak I suggested for Berserker - improve duration of Rage at higher levels.

And not to forget, I never missed that 1/2 attack he looses with "Revised Grandmastery" tweak .

 

Of Feral senses I'm not sure what it actually does. Detects invisible = see invisible like True Seeing? Regardles, I'd personaly consider this class set.

While not enraged it's pretty much just immunity to blindness for now, but with SR V4 he'll be able to fight within Fog Cloud or similar effects without penalties. While enraged he is able to detect invisible creatures as SR V4 See Invisibility spell will do (reveals creatures hiding in the shadows, removes normal Invisibility, and makes a creature under Improved Invisible "semi visible" - aka only reveals his position, without dispelling the illusionary protection), but within a short distance.

 

 

True Fighter

I guess my previous feedback on him was a bit shallow (as I said, need more time to play.) But. I don't know if this is intended to work like this. If yes, then he gets a straight A grade. His Called Shot ability "Disarm" applies THAC0 penalties. (-2, or +2 depending how you look at it). The thing is, this is cumulative with additional hits, bypasses MR and any other defence apart from AC. Like old Soul Reaver sword...

This is something I was going to point out myself. In theory I was going to make it non-cumulative for the next beta, then I started thinking if a non-cumulative -2 penalty was going to be too much unappealing. Would it be better a non-cumulative -4? Mmm...

 

"Trip" Called Shot seems to be his way of dealing with mages. It's very weak for me prior to level 10 (I simply don't find -50% to movement speed important. I like melee .) However, in BG1, with an Archery themed party, this is simply brutal. After level 10, given mages Save vs. Death is poor, you might just get lucky and knock the bastard out.

I may change my opinion on the "Most versatile class" yet...

I told you that Called Shots were great.

 

Great job so far from modmakers, keep up the good work!

Hoping to see both Rangers and Paladins soon.

You will.

[Kalindor]

This is something I was going to point out myself. In theory I was going to make it non-cumulative for the next beta, then I started thinking if a non-cumulative -2 penalty was going to be too much unappealing. Would it be better a non-cumulative -4?

I think -2 cumulative is fine. I have not thought it overly effective in BG1. I can't recall the duration, but you could tweak it that way.

 

You will.

Om nom nom nom!

[kreso]

This is something I was going to point out myself. In theory I was going to make it non-cumulative for the next beta, then I started thinking if a non-cumulative -2 penalty was going to be too much unappealing. Would it be better a non-cumulative -4?

I think -2 cumulative is fine. I have not thought it overly effective in BG1. I can't recall the duration, but you could tweak it that way.

 

I pondered about this issue a bit. To be honest, I'm not sure what is the best option. It's a very powerful ability. In BG1, -4 penalty to hit rolls is big, so I have no problem with it there. It can still be abused (Web stacking for auto-hits and ranged weapons). Duration is fine I guess. It's the Improved Haste/Dual wield combo or Darts/Tugian Bow in BG2 I'm really worried about. Hmm. Best I could think of is:

1) what Demi suggested (non cumulative -4) which makes sense in another way as well (you get the same penalty on THAC0 for attempt)

2) cumulative -2 for 3 or 4 times max (dual wielding and weapons with lower damage and better APR still pay of, and it makes sense, moreover for Short Bows and small accurate weapons). This option would be capped at -6 or -8 (since you still have to hit succesfully for several times, not only once).

One thing I'm sure of is that capping this is needed.

[Demivrgvs]

Called Shot (Disarm)

This is something I was going to point out myself. In theory I was going to make it non-cumulative for the next beta, then I started thinking if a non-cumulative -2 penalty was going to be too much unappealing. Would it be better a non-cumulative -4?

I think -2 cumulative is fine. I have not thought it overly effective in BG1. I can't recall the duration, but you could tweak it that way.

I pondered about this issue a bit. To be honest, I'm not sure what is the best option. It's a very powerful ability. In BG1, -4 penalty to hit rolls is big, so I have no problem with it there. It can still be abused (Web stacking for auto-hits and ranged weapons). Duration is fine I guess. It's the Improved Haste/Dual wield combo or Darts/Tugian Bow in BG2 I'm really worried about. Hmm. Best I could think of is:

1) what Demi suggested (non cumulative -4) which makes sense in another way as well (you get the same penalty on THAC0 for attempt)

2) cumulative -2 for 3 or 4 times max (dual wielding and weapons with lower damage and better APR still pay of, and it makes sense, moreover for Short Bows and small accurate weapons). This option would be capped at -6 or -8 (since you still have to hit succesfully for several times, not only once).

One thing I'm sure of is that capping this is needed.

2) is not doable, thus I guess we have the following options:

a) -2 cumulative, 4 rounds (as current beta)

b) -2 non-cumulative, longer duration (e.g. 10 rounds)

c) -4 non-cumulative

I'd probably vote for b), and I'd almost surely exclude a) because in BG2 it probably makes the actual Disarm (aka Improved Called Shot) redundant due to high apr easily causing tremendous thac0 penalties with no save.

[kreso]

 

2) is not doable, thus I guess we have the following options:

a) -2 cumulative, 4 rounds (as current beta)

b) -2 non-cumulative, longer duration (e.g. 10 rounds)

c) -4 non-cumulative

 

I'd go c).

b) seems a bit underpowered (considering -4 THAC0 penalty)

[Kalindor]

I think option C is fine also.

[Kalindor]

After testing the Berserker with the fully operational Frenzy, I conclude that it is more effective than the other fighter kits in BG1. Not only do they have Barbarian-esque offenses, they can use their enrage ability as an Inner Focus when wizards are present. They can also tank as well as an unkitted Fighter while not enraged.

 

Since omnipotent offense is their calling card, a defensive penalty of some variety may be preferable. I would suggest removing their ability to use shields, but all of the other kits have some shield restriction. A restriction on heavy armor might make them too similar to the Barbarian. A saving throw penalty vs. spells does not seem appropriate since their rage makes them immune to many spells.

 

It's possible that the Berserker becomes more balanced with the other Fighters in SoA/ToB, so perhaps they can be seen as a strong class for early game that becomes balanced later, rather like a Sorcerer in reverse. I have not played them in SoA, so I cannot comment on this.

[kreso]

After testing the Berserker with the fully operational Frenzy, I conclude that it is more effective than the other fighter kits in BG1.

Not for me, I'm afraid.

 

Not only do they have Barbarian-esque offenses, they can use their enrage ability as an Inner Focus when wizards are present. They can also tank as well as an unkitted Fighter while not enraged.

It offers 0 protection from damage spells, and penalizes AC (big drawback in BG1). True Fighter gets Defensive Stance at will. They cannot tank as Fighter can.

 

Since omnipotent offense is their calling card, a defensive penalty of some variety may be preferable.

They have one already.

 

 

It's possible that the Berserker becomes more balanced with the other Fighters in SoA/ToB, so perhaps they can be seen as a strong class for early game that becomes balanced later, rather like a Sorcerer in reverse. I have not played them in SoA, so I cannot comment on this.

 

I think he's uderpowered, TBH. Even more so in BG1.

[Kalindor]

It offers 0 protection from damage spells, and penalizes AC (big drawback in BG1).

My apologies, I mean to state "against mind-affecting spells" but omitted that vital comment. You are correct, it doesn't help against damaging spells. It can still be used just like Inner Focus to deflect mind-affecting spells due to the instantaneous activation however.

 

True Fighter gets Defensive Stance at will. They cannot tank as Fighter can.

Defensive Stance gives +2AC. While this is nice, it is not a huge bonus. Also, the -2 THAC0 penalty from Defensive Stance is very noticeable for a level 1-4ish Fighter.

 

Since omnipotent offense is their calling card, a defensive penalty of some variety may be preferable.

They have one already.

 

Are you talking about the AC penalty from enrage + frenzy? No one is forcing you to use the enrage ability. Without using enrage, their tanking is identical to a fighter's minus the 2AC from defensive stance, should you choose to use that. They can wear the same armor, helms, and shields as an unkitted Fighter. In addition, when you obtain Intimidating Rage, it can help compensate for the -2AC from enrage (but not from Frenzy). Essentially, if you want to tank like a Fighter just don't use enrage and you are only missing out on -2AC, and only then if the Fighter is using Defensive Stance.

 

I think he's uderpowered, TBH. Even more so in BG1.

I suppose if one person's experience is that it is too powerful and one person's is that it is underpowered, then that makes it balanced on average?

[kreso]

It offers 0 protection from damage spells, and penalizes AC (big drawback in BG1).

My apologies, I mean to state "against mind-affecting spells" but omitted that vital comment. You are correct, it doesn't help against damaging spells. It can still be used just like Inner Focus to deflect mind-affecting spells due to the instantaneous activation however.

 

True.

 

True Fighter gets Defensive Stance at will. They cannot tank as Fighter can.

Defensive Stance gives +2AC. While this is nice, it is not a huge bonus. Also, the -2 THAC0 penalty from Defensive Stance is very noticeable for a level 1-4ish Fighter.

 

It makes you quite hard to hit, if not impossible. 2-THAC0 is huge penalty early, but I don't play solo. Fighter tanks, rest of the bunch shoot arrows. I don't care much if he actually hits or not.

 

Are you talking about the AC penalty from enrage + frenzy? No one is forcing you to use the enrage ability. Without using enrage, their tanking is identical to a fighter's minus the 2AC from defensive stance, should you choose to use that. They can wear the same armor, helms, and shields as an unkitted Fighter. In addition, when you obtain Intimidating Rage, it can help compensate for the -2AC from enrage (but not from Frenzy). Essentially, if you want to tank like a Fighter just don't use enrage and you are only missing out on -2AC, and only then if the Fighter is using Defensive Stance.

 

All true.

Also he can't drink potions if Rage/Frenzy. He will attack your own party members and consecutivly, kill them very fast. I find him to be a great liabilty early on, when 1 hit can be the difference between dying and surviving a battle.

He can't use Called Shot.

 

I suppose if one person's experience is that it is too powerful and one person's is that it is underpowered, then that makes it balanced on average?

 

I guess yes.

 

P.S. Are you playing with SCS?

[Ardanis]

Frenzy

I think we can differentiate it from Inner Focus.

It's activation time has to remain instant, because we probably do not want to interrupt AI from using it. However, what if the effect kicks in after a short delay? Even PnP materials suggest that berserker needs some time to psych himself up.

 

For the delay, I'd use one round.

[kreso]

Frenzy

I think we can differentiate it from Inner Focus.

It's activation time has to remain instant, because we probably do not want to interrupt AI from using it. However, what if the effect kicks in after a short delay? Even PnP materials suggest that berserker needs some time to psych himself up.

 

For the delay, I'd use one round.

 

I seriously think he needs buffing, not nerfing!

On your idea, I like it but - Rage duration must be longer then.

[Demivrgvs]

I've been busy sorry. Let's try to catch up.

 

Berserker

So, the current Berserker is slightly too powerful for one beta tester and slightly underpowered for the other...cool.

 

Defensive weakness

Kalindor has a point. Ideally the chance to go Frenzy even when not enraged should make the Berserker unreliable as a tank (unless your tank doesn't attack at all, but in that case he would be severely underperforming imo), and the lack of Defensive Stance makes the AC penalty vary from -2 to -4 compared to a Fighter (not to mention Called Shot can make them tank even better by disarming their opponents). Is that not enough? I'm not sure myself, but I probably need more playtesting to judge.

 

Like Kalindor, I do thought about making Berserkers unable to wield shields (maybe only when enraged and/or frenzied - but in the end it would be the same) because I really don't think a Berserker would still use a shield for cover when on a rampage. The only problem is that as Kalindor noticed we already have Kensai not using them at all, Barbarian limited to medium shields, and WS limited to small ones...

 

Delay rage: Arda is right about PnP but still its implementation within BG would seem strange imo. We don't have a proper animation if we make it require a sort of "casting time", and just applying it with a x seconds delay would seem really odd to most players, don't you think? Furthermore, is it necessary a bad thing the possibility of using rage as a limited Inner Focus (which works only against mind affecting spells)? It doesn't seem so inappropriate...is it just for "balance reasons"?