Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Kalindor]

I should mention that I think restricting Wizard Slayers to light armor is a conceptually excellent restriction, so long as their bonuses vs. spellcasters are sufficient to make up for it.

 

I also thought about using a sort of "protection vs. mages" (aka +2 AC and saves vs arcane spellcasters), but I'm not convinced.

Bonus to saves vs. arcane spellcasters would be great as it would make them more effective against arcane than divine spellcasters (they are "wizard" slayers after all). The + to AC is unneccesary I think. It would be cool if this save vs. wizards bonus improved with level or with a HLA.

 

Btw, I actually have problems filling the 5th lvl of all kits!

Here are a couple ideas:

Barbarian - Perhaps some sort of fearsome presence that results in a THAC0 penalty to adjacent opponents.

 

Berserker - Not sure what intimidating rage does. Is it similar to what I just proposed for Barbarians? If so, d'oh! I am not sure how often Berserkers get to rage at higher levels, but it would be nice if they gained the ability to regenerate uses of their rage at a slow rate.

 

Kensai - How about a small AC bonus while attacking?

[Ardanis]

I also thought about using a sort of "protection vs. mages" (aka +2 AC and saves vs arcane spellcasters), but I'm not convinced.

It may actually be better than plain +2 save vs spells. I dare to presume that nobody cares about AC bonus vs wizards but extra saves sound perfect.

On the other hand, it begins to overlap with MR.

 

but it also granted the ability to instantly counter attack the "backstabber" (a sort of Attack of Opportunity). Should I implement something like that (e.g. small chance when attacked - even if the attacker doesn't hit - to get +1 apr for 3-6 seconds)?

That's an extra attack against A when you're attacked by B.

 

I'm also tempted to try here PnP Intimidating Rage, which in PnP is a prerequisite for the Frenzied Berserker PrC. What do you think?

I think that's a good pick.

 

- Kensai: the easy and cheap solution would be to reintroduce here vanilla's bonus to weapon speed factor. I really have no other ideas atm. Do you?

I was suggesting immunity to fear (though it's better suited for 2nd level?). Speed factor bonus is very nice on low levels, when you only have one attack per round and initiative actually matters.

 

 

The + to AC is unneccesary I think. It would be cool if this save vs. wizards bonus improved with level or with a HLA.

It's a hardcoded +2 bonus to AC/saves vs specific creature type/class/race/etc.

[Demivrgvs]

5th level class abilities

 

Wizard Slayer

Bonus to saves vs. arcane spellcasters would be great as it would make them more effective against arcane than divine spellcasters (they are "wizard" slayers after all). The + to AC is unneccesary I think. It would be cool if this save vs. wizards bonus improved with level or with a HLA.

Unfortunately all of that is hardcoded, else I would have indeed skipped the AC part (though I could pretend it's there to avoid touch/ray spells even if most of them don't really need an attack roll in BG). That and the "it begins to overlap with MR" thing is what makes me unconvinced of opting for this solution, which otherwise seems kinda fitting.

 

Barbarian

Perhaps some sort of fearsome presence that results in a THAC0 penalty to adjacent opponents.

I'm suggesting it too but I think it fits our "Frenzied Berserker" more, doesn't it?

 

(AD&D Back Protection) also granted the ability to instantly counter attack the "backstabber" (a sort of Attack of Opportunity). Should I implement something like that (e.g. small chance when attacked - even if the attacker doesn't hit - to get +1 apr for 3-6 seconds)?

That's an extra attack against A when you're attacked by B.

Yeah, I know...it doesn't differ much from a plain permanent bonus to attack rate. It's a sort of overcomplicated +x to apr which triggers more often when attacked by many opponents at once (the last part is the only redeeming factor imo).

 

Any idea to implement either Endurance or Trap Sense in a way that actually matters a little? Or an Uncanny Dodge-like feature?

 

Berserker

Not sure what intimidating rage does. Is it similar to what I just proposed for Barbarians? If so, d'oh!

 

I am not sure how often Berserkers get to rage at higher levels, but it would be nice if they gained the ability to regenerate uses of their rage at a slow rate.

They get up to 5 uses per day at 16th lvl, then I'll probably give them an HLA to get extra uses at 20th+ level.

 

I do thought about your suggestion, but I lack good solutions for implementing it. The only one was a % chance to get 1 more use per day when a target is killed, but I don't like it too much - I would like it if it was +1 round duration to the ongoing rage, but it cannot be done.

 

I'm also tempted to try here PnP Intimidating Rage, which in PnP is a prerequisite for the Frenzied Berserker PrC. What do you think?

I think that's a good pick.

 

Kensai

How about a small AC bonus while attacking?

What would be the difference between this and the bonus to AC vs. melee the kit already gets?

 

the easy and cheap solution would be to reintroduce here vanilla's bonus to weapon speed factor.

I was suggesting immunity to fear (though it's better suited for 2nd level?). Speed factor bonus is very nice on low levels, when you only have one attack per round and initiative actually matters.

Yeah, I was only worried that without removing the speed factor bonus from grandmastery a Kensai would have dagger-like speed factor with heavy weapons (destroying all our IR efforts to make speed factor actually matter - which btw already makes Kensais the fastest "weapon swingers" because they don't get any 'weapon speed factor' penalty from armors). That being said, the Kensai is supposed to be THE weapon master and it may be fine considering it surely doesn't cause a balance issue.

 

Regarding immunity to fear, I was kinda ok with it, but only in terms of "non-magical fear". I'm keeping it on hold just because it seems to much similar to what other kits already get.

[Ardanis]

Barbarian

Any idea to implement either Endurance or Trap Sense in a way that actually matters a little? Or an Uncanny Dodge-like feature?

Endurance - even if fatigue mod works as expected, I think none would care about high-CON barb staying fresh for another day or two, when the rest of party is yawning every turn. And I think you wanted to give Endurance to rangers?

 

Trap Sense - if we implement passive trap detection (I have working and play-tested code), then barbs can notice traps' presence like rogues. Saving throws vs traps would have been nice, but it is harder to do and imo most would just disarm a trap instead.

 

Kensai

Yeah, I was only worried that without removing the speed factor bonus from grandmastery a Kensai would have dagger-like speed factor with heavy weapons

It's a +3 bonus... not that great.

[kreso]

Hi. Any release date for this yet? At least fighters... Sounds like an awesome mod.

[Demivrgvs]

Hi. Any release date for this yet? At least fighters... Sounds like an awesome mod.

I'll almost surely have V1 (which includes all fighter kits and revised vanilla HLAs too) ready before the end of this week, but Arda has been and still is extremely busy with BGEE2 stuff and I need him for a couple of things. Let's just say I hope KR's fighters will be out for anyone (or at least those willing to test the first beta) for the next week-end.

[kreso]

Great news! Thank you.

[Demivrgvs]

My time is really running out, so I'll quickly recap everything to point out the last few doubts and the latest changes/additions. I can still do something in these last few days (especially tomorrow) before the beta release.

 

Don't bother about the description template, we can discuss it elsewhere. Here I want to discuss the actual abilities and effects.

 

Fighter

I'm updating the first post but here it is the fighter in my current build.

 

Class Features:

- Rolls d10 for hit points.

- Can achieve grandmastery (+++++) in any weapon proficiency.

- Can use all types of armor.

- At 1st level, can use Offensive Stance and Defensive Stance at will.

- At 4th level, can use Called Shot once per day, and gains one extra use of this ability for every 4 levels thereafter, up to 4 times per day at 16th level.

- At 5th level, becomes proficient (+) in the use of all types of weapons.

- At 7th level, gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.

- At 10th level, gains Improved Called Shot.

- At 11th level, gains the Tactician trait.

- At 14th level, gains the Expert Tactician trait.

- At 15th level, can use Hardiness HLA once per day

- At 17th level, gains the Master Tactician trait.

- At 19th level, gains Greater Called Shot.

 

OFFENSIVE STANCE:

While using an offensive stance, the character gains +2 bonus to damage, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Every other nine levels damage bonus and attack roll penalty increase by one, up to +4 bonus to damage and -4 penalty to attack rolls at 19th level. The Fighter remains in this stance for 6 rounds, and cannot combine it with Defensive Stance.

 

DEFENSIVE STANCE:

While using a defensive stance, the character gains +2 bonus to AC, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Every other nine levels armor class bonus and attack roll penalty increase by one, up to +4 bonus to AC and -4 penalty to attack rolls at 19th level. The Fighter remains in this stance for 6 rounds, and cannot combine it with Offensive Stance.

 

CALLED SHOT: An experienced Fighter can aim his attacks more precisely, targeting a particular part of the body in order to gain various combat advantages from the attacks.

When this ability is activated, any attack made within the next round is made at -4 penalty to attack rolls, and the first successful hit is augmented in the following manner (according to targeted area):

Arm: -2 penalty to target's thac0 for 4 rounds

Leg: target's movement rate is halved for 4 rounds

 

IMPROVED CALLED SHOT: A veteran Fighter can land even more precise and lethal hits.

Called Shot attacks now have the following additional effects:

Arm: target must save vs. death or be unable to attack for 2 rounds

Leg: target must save vs. breath or be knocked down for 1 round

 

TACTICIAN:

Allies within 15 feet from the fighter get +1 bonus to attack rolls. Multiple bonuses from different fighters stack.

 

EXPERT TACTICIAN:

Allies within 15 feet from the fighter get +1 bonus to AC.

 

HARDINESS:

This ability grants the warrior 20% resistance to all forms of damage for 10 rounds.

 

MASTER TACTICIAN:

Allies within 15 feet from the fighter get +1 bonus to damage rolls.

 

GREATER CALLED SHOT:

Called Shot attacks now have the following additional effects:

Arm: targets who fail the save vs. death have their strength reduced to 50% for 1 turn

Leg: targets who fail the save vs. breath have their dexterity reduced to 50% for 1 turn

Since the last time we discussed it I've only applied one small change (moved Tactician's AC bonus from 11th to 14th lvl, and vice-versa the +1 to attack rolls) and I've added one last upgrade to Called Shot at 19th lvl.

 

TACTICIAN

Arda would really like to move the first tier of this ability (the +1 to attack rolls) to low levels (e.g 2nd lvl) because we would like to see this feat used more by the AI than by players, and BG opponents tend to be of low level even within BG2. I obviously share his sentiment but for now I've decided to not move it because it breaks the symmetry with the other classes and it forces me to find something else for higher levels.

 

GREATER CALLED SHOT

The idea behind the last upgrade should be kinda obvious: the fighter not only disarm or knock down the target but he inflicts heavy injuries to the targeted arm or leg respectively. What do you think?

 

I've already planned a third Called Shot option, Sundering (-2 AC, -10% physical resistance, 50% CON), but I'm not sure it will make to V1.

 

Closing Comments

There's still room for improvements (e.g. I hope either ToBEx or BGEE2 will allow me to implement Armor Training, levels 2 and 18 are still blank, etc.) but overall I really like how the class has turned out (the master of versatility, maneuvers, and cooperative combat) going from my least favorite fighter class to the one I probably like the most.

[Kalindor]

The "every other 9 levels" statement confuses me. I think it would be clearer if you just stated that it improves at levels X and X.

 

It would make sense that a fighter could specifically target the head in addition to arms or legs. Perhaps a Called Shot: Head option where you gain an increased critical hit % in exchange for decreased THAC0?

 

I like how the class looks. It actually is tempting to make a pure class fighter.

[Demivrgvs]

The "every other 9 levels" statement confuses me. I think it would be clearer if you just stated that it improves at levels X and X.

You may be right.

 

Called Shots

It would make sense that a fighter could specifically target the head in addition to arms or legs. Perhaps a Called Shot: Head option where you gain an increased critical hit % in exchange for decreased THAC0?

I do thought about that (we also considered a called shot to the heart with a heavy -10 penalty), but for now we've opted for a solution where we include only "easy" called shots, and I've sort of mixed caled shots and combat maneuver (arm-disarm, leg-trip, vitals-sunder). I cannot imagine a called shot to the head fitting the current system or getting high level upgrades without stepping over Critical Strike, Power Attack or Deathblow territory.

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, time to move on as I've finished pretty much everything. As before, don't bother about the class description here, just let me know if you think the class looks fine overall, or if I should really re-think something.

 

Advantages:

- Rolls d12 for hit points.

- Is immune to backstabbing.

- At 1st level can use Barbarian Rage once per day, and gains one extra use of this ability for every 4 levels thereafter, up to 4 times per day at 16th level.

- At 2nd level gains Swift Foot.

- At 3rd level, gains Cleave.

- At 4th level, gains Rolling Dodge.

- At 5th level, gains Blind-Fighting.

- At 6th level, gains Scent.

- At 8th level, gains Fearless Rage.

- At 9th level, gains Cleave Through.

- At 10th level, gains Greater Rage.

- At 11th level, gains 10% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile damage. At 14th, and 17th level, this increases by an additional 5%.

- At 15th level, can use Whirlwind Attack once per day.

- At 19th level, gains Mighty Rage.

 

Disadvantages:

- Cannot wear plate mail or full plate armor.

- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.

- Cannot use Defensive Stance.

- Cannot use Called Shot.

- Cannot dual class.

 

BARBARIAN RAGE: When enraging, the barbarian gains an extra attack per round and a +2 bonus to damage, AC, movement rate, and saving throws versus breath, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. However, the barbarian will also be unable to perform actions that require concentration, like activating item's abilities or remaining hidden.

After 5 rounds, the enrage effect wears off and the user becomes fatigued for 5 rounds. While fatigued, the barbarian suffers a -2 penalty to AC, damage, and attack rolls and cannot re-enter the enraged state.

 

SWIFT FOOT: Barbarian's base movement speed is increased by 20%, and by further 20% when enraged.

 

CLEAVE: If the barbarian deals a creature enough damage to kill it, he gets an immediate extra attack for the next round.

 

ROLLING DODGE: while enraged the barbarian gains +4 bonus to armor class vs. missile weapons.

 

BLIND-FIGHTING: the barbarian can fight without penalties in conditions of poor light or total darkness, and even if unable to see.

 

SCENT: an enraged barbarian can detect invisible creatures within 15 feet.

 

FEARLESS RAGE: an enraged barbarian is immune to fear effects.

 

CLEAVE THROUGH: At 9th level when the barbarian deals a creature enough damage to kill it, he gets a extra attack for one and a half round, and can charge to reach the new target with movement speed increased by +40%.

 

GREATER RAGE: At 10th level, the benefits gained from enraging increase to a +3 bonus to damage, AC, and saving throws versus breath.

 

WHIRLWIND ATTACK:

For 2 rounds, movement and attack rate are doubled, but all attacks are made with a -2 penalty to hit and damage rolls.

 

MIGHTY RAGE: At 19th level, the benefits gained from enraging increase to a +4 bonus to damage, AC, and saving throws versus breath.

Now, I do have quite a few doubts about this class...

 

Rage Powers

This is an aspect I'm still not entirely sure about, and I'll do need feedback in the coming future.

I had quite a difficult time tracking down and picking the best possible (and implementable) ideas

- Swift Foot is just vanilla's +2 movement rate but with a doubled bonus when enraged

- Rolling Dodge isn't exciting but we didn't find much better options, and at least it gives decent protection against missiles for the classic barbarian weapon loadouts (I assume most of them will use two-handed or two-weapon fighting style, and will not use shields)

- Scent is a must imo, so much that D&D Next (aka the upcoming 5th edition) will implement it too, with just a different name (Feral Senses)

- Fearless Rage probably is a must too, and just as Scent it will be there in D&D Next too.

 

Blind-Fighting

I and Arda have discussed to replace it in the future with another non-weapon proficiency taken from AD&D Complete Barbarian Handbook, Danser Sense (a sort of Trap Sense which alerts the barbarian of nearby traps and ambushes).

That being said, I still believe it fits the character and his feral aspect. The Complete Barbarian Handbook lists it as a recommended non-weapon proficiency for this class, and it goes along well with Scent imo.

 

Cleave & Great Cleave

It's pretty simple, at 3rd and 9th level the other fighters get Mastery and Grand Mastery, considerably raising their apr. I'm giving Barbarian this feats to make them keep up, and because I think it's one of the most classic feat for this class, combined with PnP's Power Attack.

 

Closing Comments

I do like the refined class concept (based on the new rage), I'm just sad I have so many doubts regarding many of his new smaller features (e.g. rage powers).

I already have a bunch of ideas for future releases, such as the above mentioned Danger Sense, as well as another non-weapon proficiency from The Complete Barbarian Handbook, Wild Fighting (a "stance" offering -2 hit/AC penalty, and +2 dmg, +1 apr bonus). If BGEE or ToBEx will ever allow us to tweak the fatigue effect I would also love to make Barbarians and Rangers get some form of the classic Endurance (it was there since AD&D as a non-weapon proficiency, later re-done as a feat).

 

 

Edit: I've moved your last post here Jarno.

[Kalindor]

The Barbarian Rage gives "+2" movement rate. Everywhere else you talk about movement rate in terms of percentages, which makes more sense to me.

 

It seems strange that the Scent ability is only active during rage. Nothing clears the sinuses like mind-numbing fury I suppose. Perhaps "Feral Senses" as a name would be less silly.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian

The Barbarian Rage gives "+2" movement rate. Everywhere else you talk about movement rate in terms of percentages, which makes more sense to me.

Ops, it's a leftover, from an older version where movement speed was included into the base rage and not gained separately. Corrected.

 

It seems strange that the Scent ability is only active during rage. Nothing clears the sinuses like mind-numbing fury I suppose. Perhaps "Feral Senses" as a name would be less silly.

I used Scent simply because that's how the ability is called in the much more familiar 3E and Pathfinder, but yeah I do prefer "Feral Senses" too.

[kreso]

Hello. Will it released today?

[Demivrgvs]

Hello. Will it released today?

I'll try to finish everything today yes. After I'm done I'll send it to Arda for him to check a few things, and as soon as both of us manage to finish everything I'll upload it and provide a link for those willing to beta-test it. If it's not today it will be one of these days, but I'll stay up all night long tonight if necessary.

 

Btw, I've almost fully updated the first post here. I've yet to write down a couple of things and we're still discussing the overall class templates, but how the classes work is showed there.