Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, looking forward to the update! : D

Sorry it took so long, here it is. I wanted to discuss everything just between me and Arda, but some help may be useful instead.

 

Let's start with the base class (you may also get a bunch of spoilers on the other classes by looking at the first post, but I've not fully updated it).

 

True Fighter

This is how the class would look like with an easy to read table

 

01: Offensive/Defensive Stance (+2)

02:

03: Mastery

04: Called Shot 1/day

05: Cleave

06: High Mastery

07: +1/2 apr

08: Called Shot 2/day

09: Grandmastery

10: Improved Called Shot, Offensive/Defensive Stance (+3)

11: Weapon Training or Tactician ?

12: Called Shot 3/day

13: +1/2 apr

14: Improved Critical or Expert Tactician ?

15:

16: Called Shot 4/day

17: Improved Weapon Training or Master Tactician ?

18:

19: Offensive/Defensive Stance (+4)

 

 

Offensive/Defensive Stance

The only noticeable news here is that I added a casting speed penalty (is -1 enough?) to Defensive Stance for balance reasons. I'm fine with F/M getting a Combat Casting-like feature, but not a free +4 AC.

 

I've made these stances usable at will (though the behaviour is not flawless, and I seem unable to allow interrupting the stance at will). What do you think about it? Do you think we should keep them as x/day ability a la Blade's Spin?

 

Cleave

As per PnP. This feat could be shared by both Barbarian and Berserker as well, but ideally I actually wouldn't mind to find something else for both TF and Bb, and keep Cleave as a Berserker-only feat.

 

Called Shot

Right now the ability works like this: "When this ability is activated, any attack made within the next round is made at -4 penalty to attack rolls, but is augmented in the following manner (according to targeted area):

Arm: -1 to target's thac0 for 4 rounds

Leg: target's movement rate is halved for 4 rounds"

And at 10th lvl it gets upgraded: "Called Shot attacks now have the following additional effects:

Arm: target must save vs. death or be unable to attack for 2 rounds

Leg: target must save vs. breath or be knocked down for 1 round"

 

There's much room here for tweaking and/or expanding it (e.g. at 19th lvl we could allow even Greater Called Shot to be made; and we could allow more "targeted areas", such as head, chest, etc.).

 

Feedback on this matter is really really welcome.

 

P.S I'm thinking about making ranged Called Shots harder (e.g. additional -2 penalty to thac0).

 

 

Levels in need of something

Now, before moving to the things I'm really unsure of, I'd like to point out the levels which imo are in dire need of getting something.

 

2nd & 5th lvl: True Fighter currently gets nothing at these levels. One of the two lvls could be filled with Cleave, and if we don't have two abilities I'd probably opt for keeping 2nd lvl slot empty, because going from 1st to 2nd lvl is still a considerable step forward anyway for a 1st lvl character (2x hit points, +1 thac0). I've thought about granting Weapon Training here, but I fear it could be too soon, what do you think?

 

11th, 14th & 17th lvl: Nothing is gained at these lvls, and you even stop gaining many hit points from HDs. Barbarians get their physical resistance at these levels, Wizard Slayers get magic resistance, Berserkers (new entry) will get fast healing, and Kensais are probably going to get increased AC vs. melee attacks (aka Parry). We absolutely need something here imo (discussed later).

 

15th & 18th: these two don't need anything for now imo, because at least you get a weapon proficiency point here, but in the future it wouldn't hurt to find something.

 

So, which options do we have?

 

Weapon Training

Where the hell should I put Weapon Training?

 

Granting + in any weapon at 5th lvl would be very useful early on, but I have a bunch of problems with it:

1) it could be too convenient for multi-dual classes

2) which progression rate should be used then to give ++?

3) BG2 created characters won't get the + until in-game

 

Else we could opt for granting + at 11th lvl, ++ at 17th, and maybe +++ via HLA. This solution wouldn't follow the template used by all other fighter classes for 11-14-17th lvls, but balance-wise it would be ok I guess.

 

Improved Critical

This is going to be used by the Kensai, but we could add it to the True Fighter too if we don't have something else.

 

Tactician

This is inspired by Pathfinder's Teamwork Feats, and PF's Tactician Fighter's archetype. The idea behind that is that the True Fighter is highly trained to work cooperatively, and thus can expand and extend his use of the classic PnP Aid Another combat action.

 

Short story: for example we could have an 11th lvl fighter grants +1 bonus to AC to allies within x feet, then grant, +1 thac0 at 14th lvl, and +1 dmg at 17th. Things like that. A group of True Fighters should get stacking bonuses imo, to simulate their training to work as a team. This would also differentiate them even more from the more "individualist" kits.

[Grammarsalad]

I'm salivating over the fighter! I personally am going to be swamped the rest of the week but I'll take a closer look asap.

[Grammarsalad]

(Looking over the table) What's Mastery?

 

 

Offensive/Defensive Stance

The only noticeable news here is that I added a casting speed penalty (is -1 enough?) to Defensive Stance for balance reasons. I'm fine with F/M getting a Combat Casting-like feature, but not a free +4 AC.

 

 

If I understand you mean that while in the stance, the player suffers a -1 casting speed penalty? If so, that might be good. It's hard to say...(checking IR)

Leather Armor gives a -2 casting penalty (Isn't that for a +2 AC?) Perhaps it should match that?

 

I've made these stances usable at will (though the behaviour is not flawless, and I seem unable to allow interrupting the stance at will). What do you think about it? Do you think we should keep them as x/day ability a la Blade's Spin?

 

I like them as at-will abilities If you do decide to make them x/day, I would lose the penalties. They won't always be useful which is the main reason I think they're fine as at-will abilities. I haven't done the math--I will if you want;I love doing math!--but OS will lower DPR in some situations. The only thing I don't like is the sort duration but if you can't toggle it then I can understand why you'd want to keep it somewhat short. I think playtesting will help to sort this stuff out.

 

Cleave

As per PnP. This feat could be shared by both Barbarian and Berserker as well, but ideally I actually wouldn't mind to find something else for both TF and Bb, and keep Cleave as a Berserker-only feat.

 

When I get a chance I'm going to look through some of my old books.

Called Shot

Right now the ability works like this: "When this ability is activated, any attack made within the next round is made at -4 penalty to attack rolls, but is augmented in the following manner (according to targeted area):

Arm: -1 to target's thac0 for 4 rounds

Leg: target's movement rate is halved for 4 rounds"

And at 10th lvl it gets upgraded: "Called Shot attacks now have the following additional effects:

Arm: target must save vs. death or be unable to attack for 2 rounds

Leg: target must save vs. breath or be knocked down for 1 round"

 

So the low level CS is useful against casters how about a -1 penalty to casting speed?

 

There's much room here for tweaking and/or expanding it (e.g. at 19th lvl we could allow even Greater Called Shot to be made; and we could allow more "targeted areas", such as head, chest, etc.).

 

I wish I had my old 2nd ed fighters handbook. I know it had something about called shots... I don't think it's possible but can you base the ability on the type of weapon used (b/s/p)? You might have a chance to ko at higher rounds with blunt, make a bleeding wound with pierce (all at a much higher level of course). That would have interesting synergy with weapon training and give them reason to use those extra weapon slots.

 

P.S I'm thinking about making ranged Called Shots harder (e.g. additional -2 penalty to thac0).

 

Do you mean a total of -6? That seems a little harsh but IDK. Maybe start there and see through playtesting.

 

2nd & 5th lvl: True Fighter currently gets nothing at these levels. One of the two lvls could be filled with Cleave, and if we don't have two abilities I'd probably opt for keeping 2nd lvl slot empty, because going from 1st to 2nd lvl is still a considerable step forward anyway for a 1st lvl character (2x hit points, +1 thac0). I've thought about granting Weapon Training here, but I fear it could be too soon, what do you think?

Second level does seem too early for weapon training. 5th might be ok for the first weapon training as long as specialization comes much later...maybe 14?

 

What about an ability called something like 'tactics' that allows them to emulate a number of feats but only for a short period of time. This might be selected from a list (I'm thinking something like enchanted weapon) that would give cleave or improved crit or ... for a short peirod of time. So, he'd be able to emulate the feats of other kits but he'd only get them temporarily. Perhaps she could get a lesser version at level 5 and a better version at 11...or if that's too good, maybe the first at 11. Not sure.

 

 

11th, 14th & 17th lvl: Nothing is gained at these lvls, and you even stop gaining many hit points from HDs. Barbarians get their physical resistance at these levels, Wizard Slayers get magic resistance, Berserkers (new entry) will get fast healing, and Kensais are probably going to get increased AC vs. melee attacks (aka Parry). We absolutely need something here imo (discussed later).

 

 

 

What about an ability that gives them extra bonuses with armor? I suppose this would assume IR but what if they suffered less dex and/or movement penalties when wearing heavy armor? Alternatively, they might gain resistances when wearing certain armor types. Now, I say this having no idea how to implement it (or if it's possible) so there's that..

 

 

Tactician

This is inspired by Pathfinder's Teamwork Feats, and PF's Tactician Fighter's archetype. The idea behind that is that the True Fighter is highly trained to work cooperatively, and thus can expand and extend his use of the classic PnP Aid Another combat action.

 

Short story: for example we could have an 11th lvl fighter grants +1 bonus to AC to allies within x feet, then grant, +1 thac0 at 14th lvl, and +1 dmg at 17th. Things like that. A group of True Fighters should get stacking bonuses imo, to simulate their training to work as a team. This would also differentiate them even more from the more "individualist" kits.

Pathfinder is a great source! Very glad you're using it!

 

As for the ability itself, that is clever. I'll have to think about it but at first glance I like it.

[Dakk]

(Looking over the table) What's Mastery?

Three stars/pips in a weapon; Proficient -> Specialized -> Mastery-> High Mastery -> Grandmastery

 

Note that Demi will use this, his revised table for KR.

[Demivrgvs]

Fighter

(Looking over the table) What's Mastery?

The ability to achieve Mastery +++ in any weapon. Within KR that means +1 to hit and +1/2 attack per round bonus with the chosen weapon.

 

Offensive/Defensive Stance

If I understand you mean that while in the stance, the player suffers a -1 casting speed penalty? If so, that might be good. It's hard to say...(checking IR) Leather Armor gives a -2 casting penalty (Isn't that for a +2 AC?) Perhaps it should match that?

Not necessarily, because the armor comes with an added encumberance, the stance is just a mental and somatic attitude. I'll just stick with whatever seems more balanced, and playtesting is probably needed to determine it.

 

I like them as at-will abilities If you do decide to make them x/day, I would lose the penalties. They won't always be useful which is the main reason I think they're fine as at-will abilities.

Yes, the penalties are there exactly to make them not always useful. Sometimes you can spare accuracy for quickly dealing more damage (e.g. against many weak opponents, or an easy to hit but though one), other times you may prefer to lower your offensive potential to just keep the overwhelming opponents busy while your mages or achers kill them, other times you may just keep a balance betwen offensive and defensive attitude (aka no stance).

 

Called Shot

So the low level CS is useful against casters how about a -1 penalty to casting speed?

Which body part is supposed to affect casting speed? Striking the arm could affect spells which require a somatic component, but afaik we cannot implement it without also affecting spells which should not, such as Power Words.

 

I wish I had my old 2nd ed fighters handbook. I know it had something about called shots...

Page 65 of AD&D Complete Fighter yes. Or AD&D DM Guide. I'm mixing those with ideas from here, but overall there's really not much difference between AD&D called shots and Pathfinder's version.

 

I don't think it's possible but can you base the ability on the type of weapon used (b/s/p)? You might have a chance to ko at higher rounds with blunt, make a bleeding wound with pierce (all at a much higher level of course). That would have interesting synergy with weapon training and give them reason to use those extra weapon slots.

It would be cool, but I can't.

 

P.S I'm thinking about making ranged Called Shots harder (e.g. additional -2 penalty to thac0).

Do you mean a total of -6? That seems a little harsh but IDK. Maybe start there and see through playtesting.

Yes. It's harsh indeed, that's why I'm not sure, but at the same time getting great ranged thac0 is easier (because bow and ammo bonuses stack), and the apr is higher. I actually fear that without that -2 penalty disarming and trippping with both would be too easy (ridiculously easy for the Archer kit who gets up to +5 hit bonus with bows).

 

Weapon Training

Second level does seem too early for weapon training. 5th might be ok for the first weapon training as long as specialization comes much later...maybe 14?

Being specialized in every weapon should indeed be reserved for mid-high lvls, if not high. I'd like to hear more opinions on this matter and the Tactician idea.

 

Tactician

What about an ability called something like 'tactics' that allows them to emulate a number of feats but only for a short period of time. This might be selected from a list (I'm thinking something like enchanted weapon) that would give cleave or improved crit or ... for a short peirod of time. So, he'd be able to emulate the feats of other kits but he'd only get them temporarily. Perhaps she could get a lesser version at level 5 and a better version at 11...or if that's too good, maybe the first at 11. Not sure.

I think Arda had a similar idea. I would probably prefer a passive bonus here rather than a temporary boost a la Diablo's Battle Orders/Battle Commands (though the latter ideas could be used as HLAs).

 

Armor Training

What about an ability that gives them extra bonuses with armor? I suppose this would assume IR but what if they suffered less dex and/or movement penalties when wearing heavy armor? Alternatively, they might gain resistances when wearing certain armor types. Now, I say this having no idea how to implement it (or if it's possible) so there's that..

Eh...I and Arda tried to imagine every possible way to implement this, but the current engine doesn't allow us to do much, if not anything.

 

Ideally, if someone could tell us how "fatigue" works in this game (I know what it does, but not how is gained), I would also like to make heavy armors affect fatigue, and then let warriors be less affected. But this is another story...

 

Pathfinder is a great source! Very glad you're using it!

It should be clear by now that when I talk about 3E I skip WotC material and go straith to the much better Paizo's Pathfinder material.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Fighter

The ability to achieve Mastery +++ in any weapon. Within KR that means +1 to hit and +1/2 attack per round bonus with the chosen weapon.

Erhm, that's actually a proficiency point, there's no way you can or want to force the player to put the point to one of the already chosen proficiency'es... well without horrible script dialog etc mess you just won't want to do.

 

Weapon Training

Second level does seem too early for weapon training. 5th might be ok for the first weapon training as long as specialization comes much later...maybe 14?

Being specialized in every weapon should indeed be reserved for mid-high lvls, if not high. I'd like to hear more opinions on this matter and the Tactician idea.

Well, hmm, 5th with Proficiency, 14th... or 15th Specialization and HLA mastery works... if it's for all weapons and pure Fighter class with the table, and even with the Learn through usage... so Yes, go for that.

15th considering the dualing cost from 13th to 14th isn't enought to discorrage going for this, with the APR bonus at level 13.

 

Called Shot

P.S I'm thinking about making ranged Called Shots harder (e.g. additional -2 penalty to thac0).

Erhm, for consistencys sake, shouldn't the basic ability be called "Called Hit", to where the "Called Shot" is the ranged thing.

[Dakk]

Fighter

The ability to achieve Mastery +++ in any weapon. Within KR that means +1 to hit and +1/2 attack per round bonus with the chosen weapon.

Erhm, that's actually a proficiency point, there's no way you can or want to force the player to put the point to one of the already chosen proficiency'es... well without horrible script dialog etc mess you just won't want to do.

Hmm what? I believe it's the ability to gain Mastery (i.e. it's "unlocked" at this level). Which is basically enforcing the BG1 rule of no more than ** at character creation - as when you gain another proficiency point at level 3 it coincides with the ability to have Mastery.

 

Erhm, for consistencys sake, shouldn't the basic ability be called "Called Hit", to where the "Called Shot" is the ranged thing.

Called hit, targeted hit, or something to distinguish the melee ability would be nice yes.

[Demivrgvs]

Fighter

The ability to achieve Mastery +++ in any weapon. Within KR that means +1 to hit and +1/2 attack per round bonus with the chosen weapon.

Erhm, that's actually a proficiency point, there's no way you can or want to force the player to put the point to one of the already chosen proficiency'es... well without horrible script dialog etc mess you just won't want to do.

Hmm what? I believe it's the ability to gain Mastery (i.e. it's "unlocked" at this level). Which is basically enforcing the BG1 rule of no more than ** at character creation - as when you gain another proficiency point at level 3 it coincides with the ability to have Mastery.

It's as Dakk says. Fighters get 4 proficiency points at 1st lvl, but they "unlock" Mastery only at 3rd lvl, High Mastery at 6th lvl, and Grandmastery at 9th lvl.

 

Called Shot

Erhm, for consistencys sake, shouldn't the basic ability be called "Called Hit", to where the "Called Shot" is the ranged thing.

Called hit, targeted hit, or something to distinguish the melee ability would be nice yes.

Well, melee Called Shots have always been referred to as 'Called Shot' since AD&D, not even the most recent Pathfinder changed that. Is it really necessary to use a different name?

[Jarno Mikkola]

It's as Dakk says. Fighters get 4 proficiency points at 1st lvl, but they "unlock" Mastery only at 3rd lvl, High Mastery at 6th lvl, and Grandmastery at 9th lvl.

Well is it, then OK, if we make a fighter, say a 4th level one for kicks. OK then, we then dual them to a thief and get 2 profs... k, then you do a little thieving without leveling up and vola, the 4th level fighter is able to archive not just Mastery, but the High mastery, yes admittingly at level 8 as a dualed thief.

See, the ability archive the proficiency is not the actual ability, the proficiency point is !

 

Called Shot

Is it really necessary to use a different name?

for consistency's sake ...

But not really. But the point is that if you are going to give something the name "shot" and then penalize it's usage in ranged combat... it's somehow wrong. In the WTF is this called this if I get penalized for it's names total usage. And that's not to say we need two abilities.

[Dakk]

It's as Dakk says. Fighters get 4 proficiency points at 1st lvl, but they "unlock" Mastery only at 3rd lvl, High Mastery at 6th lvl, and Grandmastery at 9th lvl.

Well is it, then OK, if we make a fighter, say a 4th level one for kicks. OK then, we then dual them to a thief and get 2 profs... k, then you do a little thieving without leveling up and vola, the 4th level fighter is able to archive not just Mastery, but the High mastery, yes admittingly at level 8 as a dualed thief.

See, the ability archive the proficiency is not the actual ability, the proficiency point is !

No, unless you were a level 6 or better Fighter before dualing out, you would never achieve High Mastery. EDIT: Screwed up the quoting, and it seems like I'm wrong.

Called Shot

Is it really necessary to use a different name?

I'm torn about this. I like to stick true to the PnP/DnD etc name, but in this case it might actually be misleading for the (computer) gamer. I would expect a Called Shot to work at range, and if it's the exact same name as the ranged only version but works directly opposite it's outright confusing.

 

EDIT: Let's face it, the BG:EE masses (and hopefully, there will be masses:)) won't be PnP savvy players for the most part (where you just know and accept that it's called Shot)...

[Demivrgvs]

True Fighter

I'm still not sure what to do with Weapon Training and Tactician features, but after replying to a few things I'll post the Barbarian too to start giving the big picture.

 

Weapon Mastery

It's as Dakk says. Fighters get 4 proficiency points at 1st lvl, but they "unlock" Mastery only at 3rd lvl, High Mastery at 6th lvl, and Grandmastery at 9th lvl.

Well is it, then OK, if we make a fighter, say a 4th level one for kicks. OK then, we then dual them to a thief and get 2 profs... k, then you do a little thieving without leveling up and vola, the 4th level fighter is able to archive not just Mastery, but the High mastery, yes admittingly at level 8 as a dualed thief.

See, the ability archive the proficiency is not the actual ability, the proficiency point is !

Point taken. If I'm not wrong the F-T you talk about would get Mastery at F4 - T6 and ironically a Fighter-Cleric would get it later at F4 - C8, but it's not a big deal imo. The class description is kinda vague right now, and we just have to keep it like that (though I would add a mention about being limited to ++ at 1st lvl). The 3E-like table listing Mastery at 3rd lvl is still useful to space out abilities for the single class fighters, and avoid getting too much things at the same lvl.

 

P.S I cannot stress this enough: dual classing is a stupid system, implemented in an even more stupid way (at least within PnP it made a little more sense). In most cases I'll take dual-class possible combos and eventual opness into account, but I won't let it guide my decisions.

 

Called Shot

Is it really necessary to use a different name?

for consistency's sake ...

But not really. But the point is that if you are going to give something the name "shot" and then penalize it's usage in ranged combat... it's somehow wrong.

Afaik "shot" doesn't necessarily imply a ranged hit (though more often than not associated with a discharging a projectile), am I wrong?

 

When it comes to D&D's etymology of the term I think it's this: "Call one's shots (Informal): to indicate beforehand what one intends to do and how one intends to do it." The PnP player was supposed to tell the DM that he was trying to hit that particular part of the opponent's body before making the attack roll.

 

@Dakk TF's Called Shot isn't the opposite of Archer's CS, it's the very same ability. The two classes will share it, with the only difference being that a True Fighter will be able to use it on BOTH melee and ranged attacks.

 

 

Barbarian

 

01: Rage 1/day, +2 movement rate, Immunity to Backstab

02:

03:

04: Rage 2/day

05: Blind-Fight

06:

07: +1/2 apr

08: Rage 3/day

09:

10: Improved Rage

11: +10% physical resistance

12: Rage 4/day

13: +1/2 apr

14: +5% physical resistance

15:

16: Rage 5/day

17: +5% physical resistance

18:

19: Mighty Rage

 

 

Barbarian Rage

"When enraging, the barbarian gains an extra attack per round and a +2 bonus to damage, AC, movement rate, and saving throws versus breath, but suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls." At 10th and 19th lvl the barbarian gets +1 bonus to damage, AC, movement rate, and saving throws versus breath.

 

Little to say here, pretty much identical to the official PnP variant rage.

 

Blind-Fight

The idea here is to expand the concept behind Uncanny Dodge (the hardcoded immunity to backstab). Within PnP Barbarians get Improved Uncanny Dodge at 5th lvl, and this is my substitution for it. I would mix in a sort of immunity to blindness, darkness-like effects (e.g. SR V4 Fog Cloud), and I'd dare to say "see invisibility by script" (aka no thac0 penalty when fighting semi-invisible creatures). What do you think?

 

I was even thinking of giving Barbarians a scent-like ability (see below).

 

Physical Resistance

Back then I was thinking to split the 10% physical resistance at 11th level into 5% at 7th and 5% at 11th (a la 3E), but I slowly understood AD&D's solution actually made sense. At 10th level Barbarians stop gaining d12 hit points at level up, thus starting to get physical resistance there can be seen as its natural continuation. Furthermore, being a % stat, and not a fixed 3E-like damage reduction, it needs to start with a relatively consistent value, because 5% alone would make very little difference.

 

Short story: I only made the progression slightly faster, from vanilla's 11-15-17 to 11-14-17. At 20th lvl KR's Barbarian will be able to pick a unique HLA which grants additional 5% resistance (selectable up to 4 times).

 

 

Levels in need of something

3rd, 6th & 9th lvl: all the other fighter kits can achieve grandmastery. Leaving our Barbarian slightly behind imo (though not much). If we think the Barbarian needs something we could give it 1 Rage Power every 3 lvls (see below).

 

15th & 18th: these two don't necessarily need anything for now because other fighters don't get anything too (except the proficiency point).

 

So, which options do we have?

 

Offensive Stance and Cleave

I was planning to grant them, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think?

 

Rage Powers

This is another great idea I'd borrow from Pathfinder (see here).

 

A possible setup could be:

3rd lvl: Fearless Rage (self explanatory)

6th lvl: Scent (a small upgrade upon 5th lvl Blind-sight)

9th lvl: Terrifying Howl (more or less a once/rage ability similar to War Cry HLA)

 

We could even continue assigning a rage power at 12th, 15th and 18th lvl if we wish so, but they should only be small upgrades imo.

 

Tireless Rage

I really never managed to decide if this is a cool feature, or something that completely breaks the thrill of understanding when going into a Rage. If we decide to implement it, it can be granted at either 15th or 18th lvl (as a Rage Power?), or an even better solution could be to allow this option via HLA. I'd probably vote for the latter, but I'm open to discuss it.

[Dakk]

Mastery and beyond

I thought that you could take away the ability to reach Mastery, and then give it back (@ level 3 for example)? So a F2-T20 could never have more than two pips in anything? And if you dual out a F4 you could then never reach High Mastery and beyond.

 

Barbarian

What are the "passive" pros and cons of the Barbarian?

 

And I've been meaning to ask you two things:

1) Will KR in any way change multiclass, or will all fighter-multiclass still be True Fighter/X?

2) With the revised proficiency table moving all good stuff to Mastery, won't Barbs be hit pretty hard?

[Grammarsalad]

Re: mastery: *facepalm*

 

In my defense the last time I reached this level I spent the proficiency point on daggers to give my kensi some range (in two ways) which is something I want to talk about sometime.

 

.

correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be possible to enforce fighter level restrictions on mastery, hm and gm by starting classes with specialization and then ap add super kit at x levels? Heh, involves multiple kits per iteration though I don't know how or if this would mess with anything else...or maybe it wouldn't even work. Don't know.just throwing that out there

[Demivrgvs]

Mastery and beyond

I thought that you could take away the ability to reach Mastery, and then give it back (@ level 3 for example)? So a F2-T20 could never have more than two pips in anything? And if you dual out a F4 you could then never reach High Mastery and beyond.

Unfortunately I can't do that.

 

Barbarian

What are the "passive" pros and cons of the Barbarian?

I'm not not sure what you mean.

 

These?

a) cannot wear heavy armors nor use large shields

b) limited to specialization (++)

c) cannot dual class

d) doesn't get all the new stuff we are giving to TF

 

a) as vanilla BG, but I'm also restricting large shields as per PnP. In exchange you get +2 mov. rate, immunity to backstab and d12 rolls for HDs. I think it's a very good deal, even more so if you play with IR where being limited to medium armor is still a penalty but not as huge as in vanilla.

 

b) Long story: "With the revised proficiency table moving all good stuff to Mastery, won't Barbs be hit pretty hard?" I'm only moving +1/2 apr (the +1 hit, +2 dmg is still there), but even without such change I would still feel Barbarians would need something to balance it. In vanilla you had the Physical Resistance to balance for the loss of GM, but you got it late, while Mastery, High Mastery and GM are achieved much earier. Furthermore, all kits are now getting something at 11th+ levels (not only the Barbarian), and thus Barb's resistance is now matching those bonues (e.g. Wizard Slayer's magic resistance), not GM.

 

"Short" story: this is why I'm suggesting to implement Rage Powers. Trained Fighters (Berserker included) achive weapon mastery, while the Barbarian "master" his rage. KR's Barbarian is still in full control of his emotions when enraged (it's more like an "adrenaline rush"), unlike KR's Berserker who reaches an ecstatic state of mind, and doesn't fully control his frenzy. Thus I find kinda appropriate that the Barbarian can improve his base Rage more than a Berserker. No?

 

c) Well...it was there, I left it there. The only multi-dual combo that I would have liked to see is the Barbarian-Ranger (aka Minsc), but it's not doable. I'm fine keeping vanilla/AD&D limitation, it makes my life easier.

 

d) here we have Offensive/Defensive Stance and Called Shot. Barbarian's Rage is supposed to "replace" these.

 

Multi-Dual Fighters

Will KR in any way change multiclass, or will all fighter-multiclass still be True Fighter/X?

Do you mean allowing multi-class fighters to get Kits? Personally I'm not in favor of it.

 

That being said, multi-class fighters will get a unique HLA table, with unique HLA (e.g. Arcane Strike will allow a F/M to infuse their weapons with magical energy, causing additional magic damage on hit).

[Dakk]

Mastery and beyond

I thought that you could take away the ability to reach Mastery, and then give it back (@ level 3 for example)? So a F2-T20 could never have more than two pips in anything? And if you dual out a F4 you could then never reach High Mastery and beyond.

Unfortunately I can't do that.

Ah, that explains it. Ok valid point by Jarno then.

 

Barbarian

What are the "passive" pros and cons of the Barbarian?

I'm not not sure what you mean.

 

These?

a) cannot wear heavy armors nor use large shields

b) limited to specialization (++)

c) cannot dual class

d) doesn't get all the new stuff we are giving to TF

 

a) as vanilla BG, but I'm also restricting large shields as per PnP. In exchange you get +2 mov. rate, immunity to backstab and d12 rolls for HDs. I think it's a very good deal, even more so if you play with IR where being limited to medium armor is still a penalty but not as huge as in vanilla.

 

b) Long story: "With the revised proficiency table moving all good stuff to Mastery, won't Barbs be hit pretty hard?" I'm only moving +1/2 apr (the +1 hit, +2 dmg is still there), but even without such change I would still feel Barbarians would need something to balance it. In vanilla you had the Physical Resistance to balance for the loss of GM, but you got it late, while Mastery, High Mastery and GM are achieved much earier. Furthermore, all kits are now getting something at 11th+ levels (not only the Barbarian), and thus Barb's resistance is now matching those bonues (e.g. Wizard Slayer's magic resistance), not GM.

 

"Short" story: this is why I'm suggesting to implement Rage Powers. Trained Fighters (Berserker included) achive weapon mastery, while the Barbarian "master" his rage. KR's Barbarian is still in full control of his emotions when enraged (it's more like an "adrenaline rush"), unlike KR's Berserker who reaches an ecstatic state of mind, and doesn't fully control his frenzy. Thus I find kinda appropriate that the Barbarian can improve his base Rage more than a Berserker. No?

 

c) Well...it was there, I left it there. The only multi-dual combo that I would have liked to see is the Barbarian-Ranger (aka Minsc), but it's not doable. I'm fine keeping vanilla/AD&D limitation, it makes my life easier.

 

d) here we have Offensive/Defensive Stance and Called Shot. Barbarian's Rage is supposed to "replace" these.

 

Sorry I was unclear. I was thinking of these (which you discussed above anyway):

Advantages:

- Is immune to backstabbing.

- Base movement speed is increased by 20%.

- Rolls d12 for hit points.

 

Disadvantages:

- Cannot wear plate mail or full plate armor.

- Limited to specialization (++) in weapons.

- Cannot dual class.

 

Let's see:

a) No heavy armour, but immunity to backstab, improved base movement speed stays and D12 HP stays. That seems like a totally fair exchange. Good design choice to remove large shields!

 

b) In exchange for limitation to ** the Barb get the ability to improve his Rage Powers? I like it. Will both Barb Rage and Berk Berserk (hehe) make quickslots inactive? But still leave them able to use potions via inventory?

 

c) No arguments here.

 

d) So instead of stances the Barb "gets" Rage, which will then be upgradable (see b) - sounds good.

 

Multi-Dual Fighters

Will KR in any way change multiclass, or will all fighter-multiclass still be True Fighter/X?

Do you mean allowing multi-class fighters to get Kits? Personally I'm not in favor of it.

 

That being said, multi-class fighters will get a unique HLA table, with unique HLA (e.g. Arcane Strike will allow a F/M to infuse their weapons with magical energy, causing additional magic damage on hit).

Yes indeed, that was what I was meaning. Sorry for phrasing so badly, but thanks for reading my mind as usual

I have no real problem with multi-class fighters not getting kits. Even though I would have liked to make Xan a Kensai/Mage! My only caveat is that multi-class being restricted to True Fighter kind of "cheapens" True Fighter and says "if you're not a multi-class, then don't limit yourself to crappy True Fighter". Now, in vanilla this was actually true! But yeah, it's good enough if we make True Fighter a viable choice for single-class fighters.

 

EDIT: Right I remembered something that I've been thinking of for a time, which would affect kit balance a lot = number of levels you get full dice hitpoints (D4, D6, D8, D10, D12). It is my understanding that every class and kit uses the dice up to and including lvl 9 (9*Dx), except Thief who rolls the dice also on level 10 (10*D6). I believe there's a mod out there - possibly by the bigg - that gives this to all classes. Have you considered this? I would like for all classes to have 10Dx, but failing that bring thieves in line so all have 9Dx. Thoughts?