Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[SixOfSpades]

Wizard Slayer

» Gains +3% Magic Resistance per level

This is too much imo considering that, unlike vanilla, you're allowing WS to use magical equipment. Drinking a Potion of Magic Resistance and/or equipping one of the many magic resistance boosting items will easily get WS to 100% magic resistance.

But those very same items that the WS can (finally!) use are also usable by any other character in the game. Yes, let's say a Wizard Slayer uses X and gets 100% MR. If any Warrior-type can use the same X and get a "mere" 85% MR, then what's so special about a Wizard Slayer's MR? Things would be different if the WS was pretty much the only source of cumulative MR, but you're not going that route.

 

Not to mention that a huge magic resistance also turns the WS into the perfect Demon Slayer because they can't use any of theirs spell-like abilities against him, and to a lesser extend into a Dragon Slayer too

Except that with the penalties to THAC0 (and weapon proficiency to some degree), my WS can never be as effective at pure hack-&-slash as other Fighters. By the time you're facing Dragons or noteworthy Demons, the WS is operating at at least a +3 permanent THAC0 penalty.

 

I'd suggest to start with a solid base (at least 10% if not 20%-30%) and add a smaller bonus per level (e.g. 2% per lvl or 1% if the base value is high).

As you mention later in the thread, I'm generally opposed to powerful bonuses & immunities applied at very early levels (unless they're balanced by difficult penalties at those same levels), as it encourages munchkin Dual-classes. But if the MR bonus is a relatively small one, I could be amenable to that.

 

» Gains +1% Magic Damage Resistance per level

Isn't this a bit redundant considering magic resistance? And having 1% magic damage res per level wouldn't make a difference anyway imo, magic resistance or not.

True. It would have some minor effect in-game, but it's mostly there for flavor, a "side effect" of the base MR. It would also make sense in the event of Magic-Damage attacks that ignore MR--not that I can think of any offhand.

 

» Special Ability of Nullifying Blow, usable 1x/day per level: For 1 turn, all successful attacks by the Wizard Slayer cause a cumulative chance of Spell Failure to their victims--melee hits cause 1% per EXP level of the Wizard Slayer, and ranged hits cause 1% per 2 levels. The Spell Failure effect lasts for 6 rounds.

If you ask me, anything less than 10% per hit is completely pointless, in fact I'd probably prefer to drastically increase it and make it not stackable. With your progression this ability won't matter until WS is at least a 10th lvl imo, is it intentional?

I've never played Tutu, so I wasn't really considering truly low levels. But in general, my aim was to make the Spell Failure a useful tool (although not a permanent effect--the WS has to stop for a second and activate his hatred) without turning it into a one-shot that denied the victim a fighting chance. I find a Level 12 WS slowly inflicting 6% Spell Failure per arrow vastly more appealing than, say, putting him under Haste and Invisibility so he can run up and slap the enemy Mage with a one-hit 40% that won't accumulate.

 

Yeah, an anti-magic aura is indeed something I've been thinking of, but my issue with it is that it seems a magical, spell-like feature, and I don't know if I like true warriors classes to have such feats.

I agree that it feels rather magical . . . but certainly no more so than things like War Cry, or various Psionic attacks. I was thinking of it as the WS momentarily taking his personal Magic Resistance using it to force a small local rent in the Weave. Typing this has made me think that perhaps the WS's innate MR should be dropped to 0 (or at least severely penalized) while the Anti-Magic Aura is in effect.

 

ITEM USABILITY: blah blah blah

Interesting, but it seems a bit complicated; most kits had easily understandable restrictions based on ethos or practical considerations: A cavalier considers ranged combat cowardly; an archer doesn't want their aim to be effected by bulky armor etc.

A Wizard Slayer doesn't want to be attainted by contact with any magic items, except for those specific items that help Slay Wizards. I don't consider that to be complicated or difficult to understand.

 

It would be strange from an RP perspective for a WS to be able to cast Spell Turning from the book of Infinite Spells but not use the mirror images from Ilbratha. Also there are some clear "grey areas" - the silver sword for instance is an excellent weapon against magic users as it's vorpal effect ignores stoneskin and forces a save vs death (Most ToB wizards save vs death at 10), but it's still pretty useful against non spellcasters, should it stay or go?

Thanks to the awesome tweak that makes Mirror Image ignore AoE spells, MI is more useful as a defense against very damaging melee opponents, such as Golems, than anything else (and even before the tweak, I'd say the 2 uses were fairly tied). So Ilbratha is out. Similarly, I don't find the Silver Sword that spectacular against Wizards (if you can hit them with a magical item, they're going to be dead in 2 rounds no matter what you're using), it's more useful against enemies that have a lot of hitpoints and whose Saves can be lowered--like Dragons. It goes too.

 

Light armor only. I know, it's overused . . . [but] your party will only really be disadvantaged if you have more than one character with such restrictions. . . . It makes sense for this kit anyway, armor isn't useful against the majority of a wizards' attacks,

Interesting, especially with your "multiple similar penalties" point . . . but just because Wizards don't have physical attacks doesn't mean that their Summons won't either. Besides, no way am I going to lock out Enkidu's Full Plate.

 

Can go beyond proficient only in weapons available to thieves (and spears)

As I've said before, the WS isn't concerned about the item type, his only concern is with the enchantments on it. Dragon's Breath Halberd? Oh hell yeah.

[DrAzTiK]

Special Ability of Anti-Magic Aura, usable 1x/day per 4 levels. For each EXP level of the Wizard Slayer, all creatures within 30 feet take a 2% cumulative Spellcasting Failure penalty (lasts for 6 rounds), and have a 1% chance to have all active enchantments on them instantly dispelled.

 

I also like this ability. the WS need something 100 reliable in order to fight against mages. I think we should focus more on spellcasting failure and not allow this warrior to cast spell (detect invisibility or breach like ability)

 

With this ability, mages will still be able to cast Pfmw without being disrupted at the begining of the fight. (and still have a chance to survive)

The anti magic aura : like barbarian and bersekers rage ==> starts at 10%, Spellcasting Failure to all arcanecasters within 30 feet and improve at 20% at level10. I am not sure about duration.

 

But I don't like the 1% chance to dispell protection. Dispelling looks too much like a spell ability.

 

About others bonus :

 

-The spell failure on hit should remain of course. Maybe allow a saving trow.

 

-Bonus to magic resistance a la barbarian.

 

My suggestion for drawbacks, :

- allow +++ stars in proficiency : even if specialized against mages, the WS remain a warrior.

- Cannot wear plate and full plate : the WS need and like to move fast in order to hit a mage easily .

- cannot use large Shields

[Guest Guest_Constantine_*]

I like the concept of an anti magic aura from Six's kit, but I have a different take on it. Make it passive(I love passive) and permanent, causing spell failure to ALL mages, friends and enemies. Now it can become as powerful as you like, because it has a major drawback. So it doesn't seem like a magicky supernatural ability, imagine mages are rattled by the wizard slayer's presence. How else do you explain vanilla's spell failure on-hit effect (which this aura augments)? Coupled with demi's breaching blow, however he chooses to implement it, I think you have the definitive mage killer.

 

Regardless of the final solution, I think you really need to keep it as simple as possible.

Or, you can just give WS an innate ability "kill all mages on the map" it'll save you all mage hatin' players much time and affort

[Ardanis]

I find a Level 12 WS slowly inflicting 6% Spell Failure per arrow vastly more appealing than, say, putting him under Haste and Invisibility so he can run up and slap the enemy Mage with a one-hit 40% that won't accumulate.

As Demi has said, for cumulative 5%-10% to take a noticable effect, too many hits are required - at least 3-4, preferably 5-7. Wizard enemies do not have too many hip points, and they hardly have time to gulp a healing potion (based on my two SCS2 playthroughs).

Add the fact that the lower level we're talking about, the less defenses a wizard has (spell triggers, etc.) and therefore can't last for as long as 25th liches can. And the lower level it is, the more hits WS has to make to assure a relyable spell failure.

In other words, 5% on 10th level is useless, and 15% on 30th is overwhelming.

 

Come to think of it, who said it's the percentage value that must scale with levels? Duration can too, and it even perfectly reflects that high level fights last quite longer. I propose non-cumulative 50% spell failure for 1/5 lvl rounds.

 

A Wizard Slayer doesn't want to be attainted by contact with any magic items, except for those specific items that help Slay Wizards. I don't consider that to be complicated or difficult to understand.

Any classification to what is helpful against wizards and what is not will never be objective. You may think that WS doesn't need high STR or Thaco bonus - especially when his own thaco suffers from the lack of proficiency points or outright penalty, - but I could never disagree more when playing SCS2+SR, especially with SR v4 in mind. And yeah, as you've said yourself, nobody has yet removed summons from the game

 

That said, how would we deal with mod-added items? When I've asked for a full-BWP list of armors, I've received merry 500kb of descriptions. Imagine how much ALL items would take to browse.

 

 

Dual-Classing

Can we skip being an elite community? If somebody deliberately wants to exploit the dual-class system, then by all means, do let them to. It's ultimately player's own choice how to play their character.

 

Shields & Heavy Armor

Just to remain unique, I'd restrict shields but not plate armor.

[Kalindor]

You know what would be an awesome Christmas present? Fighter Kit Revisions!

[Demivrgvs]

You know what would be an awesome Christmas present? Fighter Kit Revisions!

I'll send a letter to Santa Claus then!

[leania]

Although I was quite late, I want to suggest one thing about WS.

 

I think the most important characteristic of Fighters is that they can achive grandmastery in weapon proficiency. So, WS also should achieve it.

 

I think the other disadvantages, such as armor/weapon/items restrictions, would be better than limit to specialization in weapons. WS may limit to specialization in several weapons, however, WS should not limit that about all of weapons. I mean, WS has to be allowed achiving grandmastery at least in one weapon.

[aigleborgne]

Grandmastery at 3rd level

Afaik that's hardcoded issue. IE simply doesn't take the table into account.

 

It is not a real issue as players that know the rules won't put more than ++ at character's creation.

 

Now, I'm not convinced about true fighters:

- At 7th level, the fighter gains an additional half attack per round. This increases to a whole attack per round bonus at 13th level.

- At 10th level, the fighter becomes proficient in the use of all types of weapons.

- At 19th level, the fighter becomes specialized in the use of all types of weapons.

 

10th and 19h level abilities are rather useless. A fighter usually relies on a grandmastery weapon.

No point to use a proficient or specialized weapon...

At best, it can be used to level up a new weapon to grandmastery. But I'm not sure it will work. At level 10, you should have a grandmastery weapon and you will benefit from one free point.

At level 19, you are already in the process to achieve grandmastery in a 2nd weapon.

So what? Get grandmastery in a 3rd weapon? Hmm, it could have a use but not that often.

 

Extra attack per round for true fighter is good point

[Ardanis]

No point to use a proficient or specialized weapon...

Not necessarily. Highly resistant/immune enemies may be a pain to bring down without specific weapon, and ability to use that exact weapon, laying in the backpack, can pay off handsomely. Especially with IR installed, which lowers the enchantment level of all weapons by one (on average).

[aigleborgne]

No point to use a proficient or specialized weapon...

Not necessarily. Highly resistant/immune enemies may be a pain to bring down without specific weapon, and ability to use that exact weapon, laying in the backpack, can pay off handsomely. Especially with IR installed, which lowers the enchantment level of all weapons by one (on average).

 

Maybe for special rare occasions. Most of the times, it will be useless

 

I think barbarian rage of berserker rage should be like in most books : character should loose control of itself and could potentially attack any friend around (or not?)

Because it makes no sense to enter rage and fight freely and even run away if heavily hurt.

 

Normally, berserker are suicidal, they fight until they kill their enemies and don't care if they die or heavily hurt. This is why they are immune to mind control.

Rage shouldn't be controlled at all.

 

it should be like Brage's cursed sword in BG1 !

 

I also think rage shouldn't be an innate. It should trigger every time a berserker starts swinging.

Because you are a berserker and you see a mage casting spells on you, you are not even in close range, you activate rage to be mind protected...

And you could eventually sit down and wait for your party to kill him.

 

Is it really a rage?

[polytope]

 

I think barbarian rage of berserker rage should be like in most books : character should loose control of itself and could potentially attack any friend around (or not?)

Because it makes no sense to enter rage and fight freely and even run away if heavily hurt.

 

Agreed, but I don't think this is implementable. The standard "berserk" opcode #3 has far too high a chance of a character randomly attacking friend and foe alike - berserking is supposed to require an intelligence check (that's not implementable either) if a friend of the berserker tries something he could interpret as an attack on him (like accidental AoE damage).

 

Also, as aVENGER reported, the berserk opcode only affects party members (not berserk resulting from morale failure though, that can affect anyone) - SCSII makes quite a few enemy fighters into berserkers, they would not share this hindrance at all.

[Demivrgvs]

Grandmastery at 3rd level

Afaik that's hardcoded issue. IE simply doesn't take the table into account.

Wasn't this fixed by either or both Taimon and A64? I can't remember anymore but I think they did.

 

It is not a real issue as players that know the rules won't put more than ++ at character's creation.

It's a HUGE balance issue within BG1, not only at character creation, but during the whole BG1 game too as the fighter ends up having GM (thus increased apr, hit chances, damage and speed factor) at 3rd lvl instead of 9th, the former being at almost the beginning of BG1, the latter at the very end of BG1.

 

True Fighter

10th and 19h level abilities are rather useless. A fighter usually relies on a grandmastery weapon.

No point to use a proficient or specialized weapon...

At best, it can be used to level up a new weapon to grandmastery. But I'm not sure it will work. At level 10, you should have a grandmastery weapon and you will benefit from one free point.

At level 19, you are already in the process to achieve grandmastery in a 2nd weapon.

First of all, let it be clear that this feature is not supposed to be as valuable as something like Berserker's rage, it's only "a plus" to further enhance the concept that true fighters are the most versatile warriors.

 

That being said, the point behind this whole thing is exactly what Ardanis says, allowing fighters to use the most effective weapon in any situation without having to suffer many penalties from not having invested prof points on it. This is HUGELY more important within IR, not only because there are much more valuable weapons and no uber weapons anymore, but also because there are plenty of "dedicated" bane-like weapons which can be incredibly more effective for a particular encounter. (e.g. a proficient MoD is still probably going to be better than your mastered long sword vs undead creatures because of its Disrupting power).

 

Even counting it as 1-2 free prof points on the 2nd or 3rd weapon you want to master is quite good imo, considering that mastering the 1st weapon and a wepon style already takes 7-8 prof points, which means ALL your prof points before 10th lvl (and thus the 1 free point in every weapon may trigger before you even start to invest on your 2nd weapon).

 

Bereserker's rage

I think barbarian rage of berserker rage should be like in most books : character should loose control of itself and could potentially attack any friend around (or not?)

Because it makes no sense to enter rage and fight freely and even run away if heavily hurt.

Agreed, but I don't think this is implementable. The standard "berserk" opcode #3 has far too high a chance of a character randomly attacking friend and foe alike - berserking is supposed to require an intelligence check (that's not implementable either) if a friend of the berserker tries something he could interpret as an attack on him (like accidental AoE damage).

I'm pretty sure I suggested to add this feature (probably in this topic) as a semi-disadvantage for Berserkers (and not Barbarians). Implementing it is not that difficult at all (cast spell on self when struck) and even the will check can be simulated allowing the kit a save to avoid it.

 

The concern I had was that such a heavy drawback is difficult to balance (it shouldn't trigger too often imo), and may actually ends up discouraging too many players from using this kit (most players don't like nerfs in general, and even less care about roleplaying aspects such as this).

 

Long story short, on paper I'd love to implement this feature for many reasons:

- it's a cool roleplaying aspect imo

- it would make berserker and barbarian slightly more different (KR already tries to make they rages different)

- Berserker kit currently has only a single small disadvantage, no missile weapon, and I do need something else to both balance its bonuses (who the hell wouldn't trade ranged weapons on a "tank character" with such an outstanding ability like Enrage?!?) and make the class more distinct

 

Also, as aVENGER reported, the berserk opcode only affects party members (not berserk resulting from morale failure though, that can affect anyone) - SCSII makes quite a few enemy fighters into berserkers, they would not share this hindrance at all.

Strange, I'm almost sure I remember the Berserking Greatsword user having the yellow circle last time I fought him. If aVENGER is right (and he usually is) I also have to take that into account for SR. That being said, I wouldn't mind having such drawback only for players, I can easily consider as if the AI always make the will check, much like the AI is always succesfull when trying to control summoned fiends

[Ardanis]

Normally, berserker are suicidal, they fight until they kill their enemies and don't care if they die or heavily hurt. This is why they are immune to mind control.

Rage shouldn't be controlled at all.

I don't remember if I have already voiced my opinion on this subject, but the simple solution is to not apply the fixed damage amount, as in vanilla, but a random value, additionally dependent on character's level. Say, lvl<10 ? 1d6*lvl : 10d6+lvl - roughly a quarter of maximum health.

 

As for barbarians, I'd reduce their rage duration back to 5 rounds - even with all their endurance, I'd still call 1 turn long heavy exercise a bit too exhaustive. Plus it compensates for berserker's restored damage backlash.

 

Wasn't this fixed by either or both Taimon and A64? I can't remember anymore but I think they did.

Look at the date, there have been neither ToB_Hacks nor ToBEx at that time.

[Dakk]

Grandmastery at 3rd level

Afaik that's hardcoded issue. IE simply doesn't take the table into account.

Wasn't this fixed by either or both Taimon and A64? I can't remember anymore but I think they did.

 

It is not a real issue as players that know the rules won't put more than ++ at character's creation.

It's a HUGE balanca issue within BG1, not only at character creation, but during the whole BG1 game too as the fighter ends up having GM (thus increased apr, hit chances, damage and speed factor) at 3rd lvl instead of 9th, the former being at almost the beginning of BG1, the latter at the very end of BG1.

 

 

It's indeed fixed, from the TobEx readme:

Proficiencies

 

Option: TobEx gives the option of enabling the application of level one proficiency restrictions as dictated by PROFSMAX.2DA.

 

And as Demi points out, it makes a huge difference in a BGT game

 

EDIT: I think that option needs to be enabled by an actual mod, and I don't think any do. IR material, presumable?

 

EDIT2: I dispute that Berserkers are "suicidal". They work themselves into a state of mind/rage where wounds and mind manipulation cease to affect them, but they are not suicidal per se. Read the vanilla BG description for Berserkers; it states there are "real" Berserkers (Barbarianesque, that are more akin to what you are describing) and trained warriors who can unleash it at will ("conscious choice").

[aigleborgne]

Grandmastery at 3rd level

Afaik that's hardcoded issue. IE simply doesn't take the table into account.

Wasn't this fixed by either or both Taimon and A64? I can't remember anymore but I think they did.

 

It is not a real issue as players that know the rules won't put more than ++ at character's creation.

It's a HUGE balance issue within BG1, not only at character creation, but during the whole BG1 game too as the fighter ends up having GM (thus increased apr, hit chances, damage and speed factor) at 3rd lvl instead of 9th, the former being at almost the beginning of BG1, the latter at the very end of BG1.

 

If a fighter doens't put more than 2 points are character's creation, he can't get grand mastery at level 3. It will be at level 9.

Now, I didn't check for enemies, but my mod will address this issue as I am giving proper proficiencies to every enemies.

 

EDIT2: I dispute that Berserkers are "suicidal". They work themselves into a state of mind/rage where wounds and mind manipulation cease to affect them, but they are not suicidal per se. Read the vanilla BG description for Berserkers; it states there are "real" Berserkers (Barbarianesque, that are more akin to what you are describing) and trained warriors who can unleash it at will ("conscious choice").

Currently, berserker or barbarian's rage is highly effective. Barbarian are balanced with low armor and limited to specialization. But berserker are just restricted with melee weapons.

Maybe it is just me, but I don't see it as a disadvantage. If I want to use bows or crossbows, I'll get an archer in my group.

 

Rage's ability is great as mages can't usually disable a fighter. Almost nothing will work and in BG1, it is overpowered (I think so).

So, to be honest, a berserker loosing control under rage is just a good balance to me.

I have never used cursed berserking sword in BG1 even if it was a +3 weapon because despite its name, it didn't give mind immunity at all.

 

Loosing control is something player won't like, but keeping control is overpowered.

I don't care about vanilla description. In every books with berserkers, they do loose control, but still, they are fearsome fighters.