Kit Revisions (Fighters)

[polytope]

- PnP berserker's major drawback, loss of control (aka 'berserk' opcode) should be implemented imo, but to a lesser extent, as we don't want it to become an almost unplayable class as its PnP version. It should be triggered either by a low hp %, or when struck by an opponent (I vote for the latter as per PnP) but it should allow a relatively easy will save (e.g. at +4 bonus) and/or last no more than a bunch of rounds imo, because we don't want it to be almost always out of control, only to be somewhat unpredictable/unreliable. Note that while out of control the frenzied berserker will get additional +2 to hit/dmg (as per opcode), thus this aspect will make it potentially more dangerous than a fighter even when not fully enraged!

 

Would you consider triggering the berserk opcode (247) from a melee hit effect (248) and giving it a short duration commensurate to apr (1 round for lvl < 7, 4 seconds for 7-12, 3 seconds for 13 and over)? That way, rather than turning around to attack his friends when the berserker is hit from a distance he will be forced to fight every enemy he strikes until they are down.

 

- We also discussed to add PnP subdual damage to Berserker's Frenzy, which should simulates berserker's reckless attitude while enraged, but I'm not sure I like it because of the damage animation (I'll test negative regeneration rate though), and also because I think AC and saves vs. breath penalties would already perform such role, making the character more likely to get hit or heavily damaged.

 

Stunning damage is actually blocked by stoneskin, and even if dual-classing berserker to mage is disallowed there are some items that grant it (more with IR).

 

If you don't want the end of rage hp loss to kill the berserking character I'd suggest a combination of zero duration minimum hp (208) + zero duration magic damage resistance (31) set to nil + damage. If you don't like the damage animation I guess current hp bonus would work but it's more fiddly to set up as I found here - although I think flinching in pain is realistic for a bersekrer when his rage ends and he starts feeling whatever wounds he took.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

Would you consider triggering the berserk opcode (247) from a melee hit effect (248) and giving it a short duration commensurate to apr (1 round for lvl < 7, 4 seconds for 7-12, 3 seconds for 13 and over)? That way, rather than turning around to attack his friends when the berserker is hit from a distance he will be forced to fight every enemy he strikes until they are down.

I've thought about it (the end result would actually be very similar to how a Frenzied Berserker would behave in PnP: once combat is engaged he only fights to the death) but I'm not sure for various reasons. With this solution we pratically end up having absolutely no control of the character during a fight, whereas we wanted the Berserker to be semi-controllable, and go out of control only for a fraction of the encounter. Even if it's fitting I don't know how many players would like to play a character which is essentially 100% out of control during a fight.

 

Furthermore, PnP's "going berserk when attacked" adds some unpredictability, whereas "going berserker when attacking" strangely allows you to decide when you want to stop having control of the character. Mmm...

 

- We also discussed to add PnP subdual damage to Berserker's Frenzy, which should simulates berserker's reckless attitude while enraged, but I'm not sure I like it because of the damage animation (I'll test negative regeneration rate though), and also because I think AC and saves vs. breath penalties would already perform such role, making the character more likely to get hit or heavily damaged.

Stunning damage is actually blocked by stoneskin, and even if dual-classing berserker to mage is disallowed there are some items that grant it (more with IR).

 

If you don't want the end of rage hp loss to kill the berserking character I'd suggest a combination of zero duration minimum hp (208) + zero duration magic damage resistance (31) set to nil + damage. If you don't like the damage animation I guess current hp bonus would work but it's more fiddly to set up as I found here - although I think flinching in pain is realistic for a bersekrer when his rage ends and he starts feeling whatever wounds he took.

I think there's a misunderstanding here. I wasn't speaking of the "end rage" phase here, but PnP ongoing damage during frenzy. Within PnP the frenzied berserker suffers 2 points of non-lethal dmg each round. It's a repeating damage animation during the rage which I wouldn't like, I have no problem with a single damage animation at the end of the rage, and I would probably be fine with the Berserker risking to die because of this damage as per PnP (knockout feature is a nice player-friendly alternative though).

 

Regarding stunning damage being blocked by Stoneskin, does it happens even if the dmg is applied via spl? Regardless, it's highly unlikely imo that an enraged berserker will have Stoneskin active at the end of his rage considering he will probably go on a rampage in melee with a -4 AC penalty, and he cannot cast spells or use items while enraged.

 

Just that you seem to have spent a lot of time testing opcodes, do you know how negative regeneration rate behaves if the character reaches 0 hp? If it kills normally without issues we could use it. For example it could be used to implement bleeding damage instead of "current hp damage" and its planned substitute, "stunning damage".

[Ardanis]

Barbarian

After thinking about it a little more I actually think I don't like this solution. Not only +x to STR/DEX/CON gives highly variable results, but I fear such solution would make it really too much similar to cleric/paladin's Draw Upon Divine Might, sharing the very same effects and even the fatigue effect at the end.

 

Btw, just to remind everyone, PnP Whirling Frenzy would be only +x to STR, and then work pretty much as my old/original suggestion (the one I posted in the first post of this topic).

Damn, you really want to steal +1 ApR from frenzy, don't you?

 

I still haven't clear one thing, how would the AI react if only Berserker's rage grants a full mind shield effect? In theory Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy shouldn't even get the bonus to will saves!

It can't, because rage uses only the "combat stance" stat, but nothing to indicate it is immune to charm.

 

Berserker

You mean +1/+1 for the "BG1 rage" and then +2/+2 for the greater rage at 10th lvl? My problem with it is that it looks unimpressive by itself. It looks fine when taking into account the additional +2 from berserking (yellow circle), but afaik we want the latter effect to not be there too often, don't we?

I meant it is +2/+2 normally, and sometimes berserk makes it +4/+4, so on the average we have +3/+3 bonus.

 

Why removing the HP increase? They are there to keep the mid-low lvl berserker alive despite his reckless attitude. Not to mention such HP increase is what makes the rage dangerous when expiring, because losing 10-20 HP can easily knockout the character if already heavily injured.

HP damage at the end of rage is a separate effect, because you already lose those bonus HP when the duration expires. Frankly, I keep considering the subdual damage as the exhaustion effect, and that is why I'd perfer it to be continuous rather than at the end only.

 

Balancing low-level berserker is more difficult, I agree. But, note that PnP FB requires +6 base attack bonus, i.e. all of their abilities start with at least 7th character level. Or 5th-6th, if we don't want to wait until reaching Baldur's Gate in Ch.5. Until then a character can employ Power Attack and Cleave, still being better than a fighter at offence.

 

If you insist berserker needs extra HP, I'd instead give Toughness (as in NWN2). I don't think it is enough to increase their health into the realm of barbarian.

[polytope]

 

Furthermore, PnP's "going berserk when attacked" adds some unpredictability, whereas "going berserker when attacking" strangely allows you to decide when you want to stop having control of the character. Mmm...

 

I'll admit that the disadvantage of having to fight every creature he engages to the death doesn't combine well with the "minimum hp limit" proposed for your frenzied berserker, since the berserker won't be the first one to fall. I was thinking more of 2nd edition berserkers, but I suspect their benefits and hindrances are more realistic. Being berserk for instance really should not protect from certain forms of instant death (vorpal hits from balors etc., disintegrate spells...).

 

 

Regarding stunning damage being blocked by Stoneskin, does it happens even if the dmg is applied via spl?

 

Yes, it's the type of damage that determines whether stoneskin blocks it, not the source (i.e. extension header in weapon vs feature blocks in itm/spl), a weapon with a damage type set to "none" - say, one dealing pure elemental damage/save-or-else effects - will not remove stoneskins on hit.

 

Just that you seem to have spent a lot of time testing opcodes, do you know how negative regeneration rate behaves if the character reaches 0 hp? If it kills normally without issues we could use it. For example it could be used to implement bleeding damage instead of "current hp damage" and its planned substitute, "stunning damage".

 

I hadn't tested it before, but I just did and it suffers the same problem as opcode 17 with a negative value (creatures brought to zero hp without dying, inaccessible inventory, maybe ignored by certain AI scripts); I suspect that just as poison applies the damage opcode at regular intervals, regeneration likewise applies the current hp bonus opcode over time.

[Demivrgvs]

Barbarian

I still haven't clear one thing, how would the AI react if only Berserker's rage grants a full mind shield effect? In theory Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy shouldn't even get the bonus to will saves!

It can't, because rage uses only the "combat stance" stat, but nothing to indicate it is immune to charm.

Ok, the question is: would removing the mind shield effect fool the AI? Does SCS stops casting enchantment spells at the target if this "combat stance" stat is detected?

 

That being said, I can probably live with Barbarian's rage keeping the mind shield effect if we wish so. My issue is just that within PnP you don't get a similar feature until 14th lvl (Indomitable Will, which gives +4 to will saves stacking with the +2 or +4 from raging), while we have it on a 1st lvl Barbarian here. Is it a big deal?

 

Berserker

You mean +1/+1 for the "BG1 rage" and then +2/+2 for the greater rage at 10th lvl? My problem with it is that it looks unimpressive by itself. It looks fine when taking into account the additional +2 from berserking (yellow circle), but afaik we want the latter effect to not be there too often, don't we?

I meant it is +2/+2 normally, and sometimes berserk makes it +4/+4, so on the average we have +3/+3 bonus.

Ah ok, then the only real change to my current solution is +1 to hit rolls. Considering AD&D Berserker's rage granted +1 to hit rolls and +3 damage, and that even our 3E-inspired rage is supposed to simulate an increased STR (which within AD&D grants greater dmg progression compared to thac0 bonuses), I still prefer my +1 to hit +2 to dmg, which then becomes +2/+4 (I guess your suggested greater rage would have granted +4/+4). The end result is the same dmg you're asking for, but slightly less accuracy, which is fitting imo.

 

Why removing the HP increase? They are there to keep the mid-low lvl berserker alive despite his reckless attitude. Not to mention such HP increase is what makes the rage dangerous when expiring, because losing 10-20 HP can easily knockout the character if already heavily injured.

HP damage at the end of rage is a separate effect, because you already lose those bonus HP when the duration expires.

It isn't a separate effect. When the character enrages he not only gets +10/20 max hp but current hps too. If they are not "removed" at the end of the rage then those hit points are "lost first" (using PnP terminology), not behaving as per PnP.

 

If you insist berserker needs extra HP, I'd instead give Toughness (as in NWN2). I don't think it is enough to increase their health into the realm of barbarian.

It's two different things imo. One thing is getting more permanent hit points (a la Barbarian), another thing is getting temporary increased endurace while raging, which allows the frenzied Berserker to fight even longer than he should (appropriately imo).

 

Short story, our Barbarian follows PnP Class Variant rage, which is a STR/DEX based version, whereas our Berserker is a mix of the classic Barbarian rage, which is a STR/CON rage, and a Frenzied Berserker rage, which is a STR-only rage but stacks with Barbarian's one (within PnP the berserker is a Barbarian's PrC).

 

Balancing low-level berserker is more difficult, I agree. But, note that PnP FB requires +6 base attack bonus, i.e. all of their abilities start with at least 7th character level. Or 5th-6th, if we don't want to wait until reaching Baldur's Gate in Ch.5. Until then a character can employ Power Attack and Cleave, still being better than a fighter at offence.

The trick is indeed to consider our mid-low lvl Berserker just as if it was a 3E Fighter-Barbarian, getting weapon focus/specialization from the former, and the 1st lvl rage from the latter. Frenzied Berserker's Improved Power Attack or Deathless Frenzy should indeed not be available till mid levels.

 

The balancing problem at low levels is that unlike the Barbarian, which is limited to specialization and medium armors, the only disadvantage the Berserker had was 'no missile weapons', to which we are adding the chance to go berserker (which happens to also count as a semi-advantage) and the lack of a Defensive Stance. Are these hindrances enough to justify the sheer power of an enraged berserker?

 

@polytope, seems like 'stunning damage' is the only non-bugged option then. The "stoneskin issue" really isn't a big deal imo for the reasons I mentioned before.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

seems like 'stunning damage' is the only non-bugged option then.

 

For clarity, "stunning" damage is actually unarmed (fist) damage which means it's just a variant of crushing damage that knocks the targets unconscious when it drops to 1 HP (instead of killing it).

[Demivrgvs]

seems like 'stunning damage' is the only non-bugged option then.

For clarity, "stunning" damage is actually unarmed (fist) damage which means it's just a variant of crushing damage that knocks the targets unconscious when it drops to 1 HP (instead of killing it).

I know, but I seem to recall crushing resistance does not protect from it, does it?

[aVENGER_(RR)]

I know, but I seem to recall crushing resistance does not protect from it, does it?

 

It does.

 

Try fist-punching a Mordenkeinen's Sword with and you'll see that it doesn't get damaged.

[Ardanis]

Berserker

The balancing problem at low levels is that unlike the Barbarian, which is limited to specialization and medium armors, the only disadvantage the Berserker had was 'no missile weapons', to which we are adding the chance to go berserker (which happens to also count as a semi-advantage) and the lack of a Defensive Stance. Are these hindrances enough to justify the sheer power of an enraged berserker?

1) I thought they should have a chance to berserk when hit starting from 1st level.

2) On low levels and in open areas, i.e. in BG1, you often want to be able to shoot to soften enemies up before engaging them in melee. Even shield-wielding tanks have to consider carrying a stack of throwing axes.

[Ardanis]

seems like 'stunning damage' is the only non-bugged option then.

For clarity, "stunning" damage is actually unarmed (fist) damage which means it's just a variant of crushing damage that knocks the targets unconscious when it drops to 1 HP (instead of killing it).

I know, but I seem to recall crushing resistance does not protect from it, does it?

I think it doesn't matter, because any damage can be made to ignore resistance by nullifying for zero duration.

[Alexander-UckateJIb]

Hello, i think your Wizard Slayer need something like aVENGER's Shatter Magic, that uses his Wizard Slayer. Otherwise how he would deal any damage to protected caster?

Is this "For each successful hit (melee or ranged) on an opponent, 10% cumulative spell failure penalty is applied" useless? If you can already hit caster he is dead.

[Demivrgvs]

Wizard Slayer

Hello, i think your Wizard Slayer need something like aVENGER's Shatter Magic, that uses his Wizard Slayer. Otherwise how he would deal any damage to protected caster?

We have recently disscussed this (see posts #238-244 between me and aVENGER on this very topic). The ability to "breach" combat protections is fine imo (my current build which I'm going to post includes it) but as long as such ability isn't able to deal with the most important combat abilities (aka PfMW-like spells) it's not a "must have". I can see it as a cool feature to give WS in exchange for something else (e.g. no grandmastery) to highlight the specialized anti-mage role, and make him able to destroy spellcasters faster and with more efficiency, but it's not a game-changing feat like Reflect Magic.

 

Even without Shatter Magic any fighter can counter non-PfMW protections thanks to their incredibly good weapon skill (their thac0 and apr can quickly overcome Armor spells, Blur, Mirror Image or similar things) and proficiencies (elemental weapons to bypass Stoneskin, ranged or reach weapons to bypass Fireshield, etc.). Shatter Magic only makes the job slightly easier.

 

Is this "For each successful hit (melee or ranged) on an opponent, 10% cumulative spell failure penalty is applied" useless? If you can already hit caster he is dead.

I only partially agree. WS's spell failure on hit is still effective to fight mages protected by things such as Mirror Image and Stoneskin but not by PfMW. Such effect needs to have a non-cumulative but much higher % spell failure (at least 20% with no save) to matter, because I do agree that the caster is already dead if you can hit it 3-5 times (1-2 hits may not be enough because of contingencies and contingency-like spells such as Stoneskin or SR's Dimension Door).

 

That being said, I'm writing a huge update for this topic, stay tuned.

[leania]

Well, I finally read all of the changes of recent post. Here are my opinions.

 

1. Berserker

The disadvantage, Chance to go berserk, seems to be significant issue if it is perfactly same as IR's Berserking sword's effect. Duration/% to go berserk per attack should be adjusted carefully.

 

2. WS

The concept is cool imo but I think WS still need some more abilities that give WS natural resistances (i.e., as passive ability) of CC such as slow, fear, etc. Barbarian and Berserker have higher APR and resistances of specific mind-affecting spells by their enrage abilities, so they seem more powerful on combat against mages yet. Furthermore, even though the disadvantages of WS are almost equal to Barbarian's disadavantages, WS's advantages are obviously fewer than the Barbarian's advantages.

[Demivrgvs]

Berserker

The disadvantage, Chance to go berserk, seems to be significant issue if it is perfactly same as IR's Berserking sword's effect. Duration/% to go berserk per attack should be adjusted carefully.

The implementation of the chance to go berserk is the hardest (but necessary) part of designing this class. I don't know if I prefer a "chance per attack" or a "chance when struck" (a "chance when HP<%" makes sense too, but it's the least appealing imo) and deciding % chance and eventual save to avoid is a real pain. I'd dare to say I can only go for a "sensible" pick and then tweak it with actual in-game feedback from players, because doing it "on paper" seems almost impossible.

 

That being said, no, it's not a 100% chance to go berserk a la Cursing Greatsword. That would make the class annoying to play imo.

 

Wizard Slayer

The concept is cool imo but I think WS still need some more abilities that give WS natural resistances (i.e., as passive ability) of CC such as slow, fear, etc.

Well, the idea of restricting WS to light armor and give it mastery back was born because I was daring to suggest replacing magic resistance with less "magical looking" feats such as Lighting Reflexes/Evasion (I cannot give these to a heavy armored class) and Iron Will/Slippery Mind. Now, fearing it would have been a too drastic change, as everybody associates WS to magic resistance, I decided to keep magic resistance (perhaps assuming that when mr protects from a fireball the WS has actually dodged it?), and looked for alternative ways to improve WS.

 

Barbarian and Berserker have higher APR and resistances of specific mind-affecting spells by their enrage abilities, so they seem more powerful on combat against mages yet.

A small anticipation to the huge update I'm writing: Barbarian's rage will work exactly as per 3E PnP Whirling Frenzy, and thus it won't grant any immunity to mind-affecting abilities. This is also more true to AD&D, as in such setting Barbarian class had no such feat, while the Berserker had it.

 

A Berserker can still look more appealing when fighting mages because of his immunities, but that should be balanced by the lack of control (berserking), versatility (no ranged attacks) and rage's limited duration (if a mage can use Grease, II, Teleport Field, PfMW, or similar spells to avoid the berserker until the rage expire, then an exhausted Berserker is an easy prey for him).

 

Furthermore, even though the disadvantages of WS are almost equal to Barbarian's disadavantages, WS's advantages are obviously fewer than the Barbarian's advantages.

I can partially agree, in fact I'm still looking for something good to give WS, but the difference isn't huge imo.

[leania]

Thank you for the reply.

 

About "Chance to berserk", I have a small suggestion.

 

I think that "Non-controllable" disadvantage is enough rather than "attacking party". And the condition would happen when Berserker's HP is below under 25%+be struck by enemies. The non-controllable demerit may be troublesome effect but it's not serious thing imo because Berserker will still keep attacking and charging to enemies anyway.

 

And the other suggestions are as following:

 

1. Offensive Stance

I think -AC penalty is more suitable for the contcept instead of penalty to attack rolls.

 

2. Barbarian & WS

Since they are the one of Fighters, allowing +++ any weapon proficiency makes them more unique imo. Is it too powerful?

 

 

BTW, do you plan to test through Beta version before official release? If yes, I'll be glad to be beta tester!