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Demivrgvs

Kit Revisions (Fighters)

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Personally I am against the restriction to single class only for Kensai but not really because I don't like for my own use (I don't play with a Kensai) but just becasuse the other class kits have dual class option (fairly so).

 

Kensai shouldn't be an exception.

 

But the idea of making it stronger at more advanced level is the way to go.

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Berserker

As I did for Barbarian a few posts ago here's the new Berserker description. I've simply tried to make it a little more interesting by gathering informations here and there.

 

" Berserkers are warriors in tune with their animalistic side and, during combat, can achieve an ecstatic state of mind that will enable them to fight longer, harder and more savagely than any humanoid has a right to. Berserkers tend to be barbarian-like in nature, but not always. Sometimes it is a conscious choice that a warrior in training makes. Regardless, opponents on the battlefield will be unsettled when they see the savage elements of the berserker's personality.

 

This class is common amongst dwarves, known to them as 'Battleragers'. Members of this elite order are usually covered in scars, runes and tattoos, and scream out battle cries or religious oaths as they charge recklessly forward into battle. They live in the fringes of Dwarven society, kept away from children for their strange ways; heroic stories are told about them, but the Battlerager is short lived, having full belief that if they die, the Dwarven gods of battle will bring them back stronger than before.

 

Berserkers are never lawful. They may be honorable, but at heart they are wild. This wildness is their strength, and it could not live in a lawful soul. At best, chaotic berserkers are free and expressive. At worst, they are thoughtlessly destructive."

 

Kensai

Ok, I get it, I'll leave this class able to dual class even if I don't like it at all.

 

I was almost forgotting to remind you what I did within IR, allowing Kensai to wear bracers (not gauntlets). Do you agree on this? If that's the case the need for a small AC help is mainly (perhaps only) needed at low levels in BG1.

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What do you think about changing Kensai into Weapon Master? PnP Kensai is so distant from BG2 version that we don't have to worry about being non-canonical. Also, Kensai is oriental stuff - and I've never seen DWARVEN KENSAI. Again - Kensai which is translated into Sword Saint is stressed on being Swordsman. So - there are few explanatons why changing it to Weapon Master (only description) have a sense. Even Bioware in IWD2 kits decided to do it. :rolleyes:

Edited by yarpen

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A radical change of the kit's name feels a bit out of scope.

 

And Demi, I agree with your IR change of making Kensai be able to use bracers (but not gauntlets). I found it a real touch of class, actually... :-)

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Kensai --> Weapon Master

What do you think about changing Kensai into Weapon Master? PnP Kensai is so distant from BG2 version that we don't have to worry about being non-canonical. Also, Kensai is oriental stuff - and I've never seen DWARVEN KENSAI. Again - Kensai which is translated into Sword Saint is stressed on being Swordsman. So - there are few explanatons why changing it to Weapon Master (only description) have a sense. Even Bioware in IWD2 kits decided to do it. :mwaha:
A radical change of the kit's name feels a bit out of scope.
I'm sorry yarpen but I agree with Salk, it's not that I don't like the idea (I do agree Kensai seems a little out of place in Amn), it's just that the scope of the mod is to refine existing concepts, while replacing a kit with another one is a little too much imo (Weapon Masters would be able to wear any armor).

 

If it's only an aesthetic change what you're looking for (as the "hidden" description of Weapon Master for IWD suggests), I'm not sure it's worth the effort, as it would still mean handling a few things (e.g. to rename all usability flags from kensai to weapon master).

 

This is IWD's Weapon Master description for who's interested: a warrior that has been specially trained to be one with his or her weapon, weapons masters are often held in high regard: in Kara-Tur they are known as kensai - 'sword saints' - and are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. They are deadly and fast and are trained to fight without encumbrance, some considering armor the crutch of the martially unskilled.

 

And Demi, I agree with your IR change of making Kensai be able to use bracers (but not gauntlets). I found it a real touch of class, actually... :-)
Thanks, I do like it a lot mainly because it makes a little more interesting something that is almost always unused, bracers. :rolleyes:

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Dual-classing

I'd leave it be as it is. Restricting it feels, well, like a censorship. Even if I never play kensage.

 

Shields and rage

Rage forbids the usage of shields (Item: Can't Use Item [180]), shields protect against rage (Spell: Protection from Spell [206]). As a result, one can't simulanteously rage and wield a shield. Macro, of course, and it would have to be installed after any item adding mod.

 

Kensai

1+1/10lvl AC sounds fair, especially given IR's bracers. 1/5 to hit and 1/3 to damage look balanced to me as well.

Perhaps +1 to critical at level, say, 15? Or 18?

 

Berserker

Wouldn't +6 damage at nearly the beginning of SoA be too much? I'd say, that's probably too much even for ToB.

I'd reduce it to +1/+2 and +2/+4 respectively, with the latter probably being available at 12th level instead of 9th.

 

Barbarian

Same as berserker, 12th instead of 9th. And maybe (just maybe) to spread the damage resistance as +1/lvl, though it likely won't be much of a difference.

Edited by Ardanis

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Wow, nice post Ardanis. :mwaha:

Dual-classing

I'd leave it be as it is. Restricting it feels, well, like a censorship. Even if I never play kensage.
Dual freedom wins by landslide!! :rolleyes:

 

Shields and rage

Rage forbids the usage of shields (Item: Can't Use Item [180]), shields protect against rage (Spell: Protection from Spell [206]). As a result, one can't simulanteously rage and wield a shield. Macro, of course, and it would have to be installed after any item adding mod.
I thought about it, but while rage forbidding to subsequently wear a shield is fine, having a shield effectively prevent from enraging doesn't seem fine to me.

 

Kensai

1+1/10lvl AC sounds fair, especially given IR's bracers. 1/5 to hit and 1/3 to damage look balanced to me as well.

Perhaps +1 to critical at level, say, 15? Or 18?

Regarding the AC on second thought it seems to me the only stage a t which Kensai is in trouble even with IR's bracers is the very beginning of BG1 (where you can't find bracers for a while), and thus I was thinking to keep the original +2.

 

Regarding hit/damage I'd personally go for +1/5 levels for both. Why would you make damage raise faster?

 

On the suggestion about critical hit...what can I say, I was thinking about it 10 minutes ago! It may be a possible additions, but I was also thinking about adding it to Kai ability itself... ;)

 

Berserker

Wouldn't +6 damage at nearly the beginning of SoA be too much? I'd say, that's probably too much even for ToB.

I'd reduce it to +1/+2 and +2/+4 respectively, with the latter probably being available at 12th level instead of 9th.

Sorry, I've been changing these values a lot but we agreed on +1/+2 and +2/+4 yes. Especially considering berserkers can achieve grandmastery is already quite effective.

 

Regarding the level at which rage is updated I selected the only 9th for two reasons: 1) because KR's rages, even in their updgraded versions are slightly weaker than vanilla's ones, and thus I think players would at least be able to use the updated ones quite soon in SoA, am I wrong? 2) because it's mid way between 1 and 18th :D

 

Barbarian

Same as berserker, 12th instead of 9th. And maybe (just maybe) to spread the damage resistance as +1/lvl, though it likely won't be much of a difference.
Yeah, it wouldn't make a big difference, I'm not even sure 1% physical resistance would be noticeable because phisical damage outputs generally aren't too high.

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Kensai

Regarding hit/damage I'd personally go for +1/5 levels for both. Why would you make damage raise faster?

Hard to say. Perhaps because it would better simulate one-hit kills - which is the idea often depicted by westerners when they introduce oriental stuff into media. Perhaps because otherwise kensai seems (to me at least) weaker than his knightly fighter kin.

With 1/3 it would be roughly on par with berserker at 18th level - one hits harder, another has better defence (as no bracer can rival +3 full plate mail, which adds extra +4 vs slashing on the top). Then again, at the 30th level the question 'who's stronger' becomes kinda rethorical.

I'd vote for 1+1/4lvl. Maybe with the progression getting slower (1/5? 1/6?) past 20th level, as it is the case with monks/archers.

[edit]Seems I was too slow, the 1+1/4 is already there.[/edit]

 

Rage

1) because KR's rages, even in their updgraded versions are slightly weaker than vanilla's ones, and thus I think players would at least be able to use the updated ones quite soon in SoA, am I wrong?
Again, hard to say. Having it available a bit later leaves a place for some kind of achievment. Btw, I'd say berserker's rage isn't that weaker than in vanilla, +4 damage is nothing to ignore.
2) because it's mid way between 1 and 18th
Well, level wise it is, but XP wise that's far from the mid. Level 10? Edited by Ardanis

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Shields and rage
Rage forbids the usage of shields (Item: Can't Use Item [180]), shields protect against rage (Spell: Protection from Spell [206]). As a result, one can't simulanteously rage and wield a shield. Macro, of course, and it would have to be installed after any item adding mod.
I thought about it, but while rage forbidding to subsequently wear a shield is fine, having a shield effectively prevent from enraging doesn't seem fine to me.

 

I have this nasty thought: what about making the warrior drop the shield when the rage ability is selected? :rolleyes:

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I have this nasty thought: what about making the warrior drop the shield when the rage ability is selected?
It's only either an active weapon or just a random equipment piece. No way to specify a shield, which was my initial thought as well.

 

PS well, it probably can be done via scripting, but I think everyone here would agree that's too much of a bother and hassle (and complicated at that) for a single fearture to be implemented.

Edited by Ardanis

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Kensai

Regarding hit/damage I'd personally go for +1/5 levels for both. Why would you make damage raise faster?
Hard to say. Perhaps because it would better simulate one-hit kills - which is the idea often depicted by westerners when they introduce oriental stuff into media.
Well, that is where Kai should come into the picture imo.

 

Perhaps because otherwise kensai seems (to me at least) weaker than his knightly fighter kin.

With 1/3 it would be roughly on par with berserker at 18th level - one hits harder, another has better defence (as no bracer can rival +3 full plate mail, which adds extra +4 vs slashing on the top). Then again, at the 30th level the question 'who's stronger' becomes kinda rethorical.

I'd vote for 1+1/4lvl. Maybe with the progression getting slower (1/5? 1/6?) past 20th level, as it is the case with monks/archers.

Let's compare Kensai to a Fighter, or better to a Berseker because currently the latter is still slightly better than the former.

 

Fighter/Berserker has heavy armor, which at the top means base AC -3/-4. Kensai has bracers, best AC later on is 4 or 3. Taking into account Kensai innate +2 to AC the difference in terms of pure AC is more or less 4 or 5 points, but then we should consider that highly enchanted armors in BG (especially with IR) also come with some nasty enchantments, and offer additional AC vs. weapons (in future IR versions and with Refinements they also grant physical resistances). On top of this the Fighter would still have the bracers/gauntlets slot free, and within BG there are some nasty ones indeed.

 

The Kensai pratically trades this for +5/+6 to hit/damage (which combined with grandmastery means a lot imo). The question is, does Kensai overwhelming offensive capabilities make up for the defensive deficiency?

 

When we add to the comparison Rage and Kai though, we surely agree Kai isn't and should never be as powerful as Rage.

 

I have to think about this class quite some more. :mwaha:

 

P.S Just so you know, Barbarian and Berserker revisions are potentially ready and packaged, thus I'll focus a little more on Kensai before starting to talk about other classes/kits.

 

Rage

1) because KR's rages, even in their updgraded versions are slightly weaker than vanilla's ones, and thus I think players would at least be able to use the updated ones quite soon in SoA, am I wrong?
Again, hard to say. Having it available a bit later leaves a place for some kind of achievment. Btw, I'd say berserker's rage isn't that weaker than in vanilla, +4 damage is nothing to ignore.
I'm not saying it's that weaker, but it is, the difference though relies more in the missing immunities to level drain and imprisonment rather than raw power. In terms of "physical attributes" they are almost on par: vanilla granted +2 bonus to AC rather than -2 penalty, but KR's rage has +2 damage, +5hp, and +2 to save vs. spell (which now that I think about it may be actually turned into save vs. death considering "saves vs spell covers more or less the same spells to which an enraged character is immune :rolleyes: ).

 

I have this nasty thought: what about making the warrior drop the shield when the rage ability is selected?
It's only either an active weapon or just a random equipment piece. No way to specify a shield, which was my initial thought as well.

 

PS well, it probably can be done via scripting, but I think everyone here would agree that's too much of a bother and hassle (and complicated at that) for a single fearture to be implemented.

Ardanis anticipated my answer. Edited by Demivrgvs

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Berserker/Barbarian descriptions

The end result seems cool to me, but if you have any suggestion let me know. One thing is certain, it's extremely longer than vanilla's one!! If you don't like it to be so long let me know even such a thing.

I like it much and I've no problems with longer descriptions. I find the vanilla descriptions to simple, so I suggest, if you start with these both and you have more for other kit descriptions, go ahead and do it. :rolleyes:

 

Greetings Leomar

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Revised descriptions

The end result seems cool to me, but if you have any suggestion let me know. One thing is certain, it's extremely longer than vanilla's one!! If you don't like it to be so long let me know even such a thing.
I like it much and I've no problems with longer descriptions. I find the vanilla descriptions to simple, so I suggest, if you start with these both and you have more for other kit descriptions, go ahead and do it. :rolleyes:
Yeah, I'm not sure if it's possible to have all kits share the same level of description but I'll try.

 

I've recently updated the first post with the revised Fighter's description too. :mwaha:

 

"The questing knight, the conquering overlord, the king’s champion, the elite foot soldier, the hardened mercenary, and the bandit king, all are fighters. Fighters can be stalwart defenders of those in need, cruel marauders, or gutsy adventurers. Some are among the land’s best souls, willing to face death for the greater good. Others are among the worst, those who have no qualms about killing for private gain, or even for sport. Fighters who are not actively adventuring may be soldiers, guards, bodyguards, champions, or criminal enforcers. An adventuring fighter might call himself a warrior, a mercenary, a thug, or simply an adventurer.

 

Fighters are skilled in the use of most commonly used weapons and armor, as well as weapon styles and field tactics, making them highly proficient in the ways of battle, and extremely versatile.

 

Fighters are common in nearly every part of Faerun and though they are sometimes overlooked due to their widespread nature, truly skilled fighters are well-respected for their abilities. While many fighters operate on their own or as parts of informally organized groups, others hold themselves to a higher ideal and are part of knightly orders. These include such renowned groups as the Purple Dragons of Cormyr, the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin, or, in the past, the Champions Vigilant of Helm."

 

Furthermore KR will assign a general description of the class features for true classes too. Advantages/disadvantages of respective kits should be more easy to understand when you have at hand the base table of features imo.

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Revised descriptions

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's possible to have all kits share the same level of description but I'll try.

...

Furthermore KR will assign a general description of the class features for true classes too. Advantages/disadvantages of respective kits should be more easy to understand when you have at hand the base table of features imo.

Great. :rolleyes:

 

Greetings Leomar

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Kensai

Ok, here's my first attempt to re-write Kensai's description. I'm sure Mike will help me refine it (I generally do a lot of errors :rolleyes: ), but I'm quite satisfied with what I've come up to. I have tried to take into account several aspects, like the fact that in BG this class can use multiple weapons instead of having a single weapon of choice, and I've also tried to please yarpen by mixing Weapon Master and Kensai names. ;)

 

"Kensai is the original Kara-Turian name of what most people in Faerun would call, a Weapon Master. These fighters are trained in an ancient school of martial fighting which uses an esoteric force known as ki to increase the lethality in combat. A Weapon Master’s goal is to unite his weapon with his body, and be able to use it without conscious effort as naturally as he would use any other limb. For such a fighter, the perfection of ki is found in the complete mastery of body, mind, weapon, and will.

 

When wielding their favored weapons Weapon Masters exhibit an uncanny amount of control and finesse, striking with more accuracy blows that are more lethal than those of any other warrior. They are deadly and fast, and are trained to fight without encumbrance, as they consider armor the crutch of the martially unskilled.

 

Weapons Masters are often held in high regard, especially in Kara-Tur, where they are known as Kensai - 'sword saints' - but are similarly revered among the moon elves of Evereska. These warriors are devoted to refine their skills and their mind following strict and severe trainings, and are often incredibly disciplined as a result. Thus the path of the Weapon Master is not suited to characters of chaotic nature."

 

Speaking of in-game refinements instead, I've been pondering two things for this class:

- should the innate +2 bonus to AC be treaded as a base AC 8 to limit its uselfulness while at the same time allowing us to help the class until decent bracers are available? I'm not particularly into this, feel free to insult this idea. :D

- I get it that you prefer to keep things like Kensai/Thief and Kensai/Mage possible, but I do want to limit their overpowerness in some way. The former combination can be severely nerfed by replacing UAI with Use Scrolls (as per Refinements), but I think there's something which I should do about the latter too. Am I the only one who finds quite wrong, if not completely against the rules, having kensai/mage being able to wear mage robes?! Kensai is supposed to fight unencumbered and these long vests which often have mantles and hoods don't seem to fit that purpose. I'm sure that without the Robe of Vecna (Larloch's Robe with IR) the appeal of this uber-munchkin class over the two respective single classes should be a lot more reasonable. Am I wrong? :mwaha:

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