Suggestion for changing weapon damages

[Gay Lord]

Let me start by saying that I love the mod. It's also cool that the author is still active, updating it. Thank you for making the mod, and maintaining it! Because the author is still around, I have some suggestions to offer, which people may or may not agree with.

 

I'm a believer in each armor or weapon having a niche or place in combat. I'm not a fan of redundant items, although items that overlap are fine. Here's what I'm thinking in terms of weapons:

 

Small weapons damage range

1-3 and 1-4

 

Medium weapons damage range

1-6 and 1-8

 

Large weapons damage range

2-12 and 4-14

 

I'm thinking that the large weapons consist of spear, staff, greatsword, halberd. The two "crude" weapons, staff and spear, can do 2-12 while the "civilized" weapons, greatsword and halberd, can do 4-14 (or maybe 2-16). The lesser damaging weapons in a category would have a faster speed, while the higher damage weapons would be slower, making the choice between damage or speed. Smaller weapon categories would be faster than larger ones.

 

One of the reasons I suggest pumping up large weapon damage is to make them more enticing vs two weapon fighting. If a person wants to offer a lot of weapon damage, why bother with a large weapon when they can dual wield? Two longswords offer 2-16 damage, and if we have 1d10 single handers, they can even do 2-20. That blows away 1-10 or even 2-12 2H. Plus, you can later have the benefit of two magic weapons vs only one. In PnP there are additional penalties when your off-hand weapon isn't light, but that rule isn't present in BG.

 

The katana and bastard swords seem overpowered IMO and unnecessary. A person with two stars in 2H weapon style and a greatsword still isn't as fast as a regular person with a katana. Even making katanas two handed doesn't gimp them enough. I don't think any one handed weapon should be doing 1-10. With katanas and bastards, who's going to take longswords which are supposed to be the most common weapon? I'd like to suggest eliminating both swords, converting all bastards to longs, and all katanas to shorts. They're overpowered IMO, superfluous, and need to go.

 

For ranged attacks, would it be possible to add strength to slings? Darts and bows offer high rate of fire, xbows offer high damage. I'm not sure, but I think daggers have been modded to offer 2 ROF as well? This leaves axes and slings at 1 ROF, and axes get strength. If I'm mistaken and daggers only have 1 ROF, then I suggest either increasing to 2 ROF or adding strength.

 

What do you guys think?

[Demivrgvs]

Let me start by saying that I love the mod. It's also cool that the author is still active, updating it. Thank you for making the mod, and maintaining it!

 

If a person wants to offer a lot of weapon damage, why bother with a large weapon when they can dual wield?

Because two handed weapons within IR are generally better than one handed ones available at the same stage of the game.

 

For example let's take two "similar" weapons you can get within Chapter 3 by finishing two of the "main" quests:

a) Frostreaver (battleaxe +2, right before finishing Nalia's quest)

b) Duskblade (halberd +2, after defeating the Shade Lord in Humar Hil)

 

a) 1d8 points of damage, +1d4 points of cold damage on each hit = 7 points of damage on average

b) 1d10 points of damage, +2 points of cold damage each round for 4 rounds = 13.5 points of damage on average (14.5 if you are proficient in two handed weapons style)

 

The halberd not only deals twice as much damage, but it does so in a more effective way, because ongoing damage can for example disrupt opponent's spellcasting.

 

In general 2handed weapons are more heavily enchanted, and the same enhancement is often more powerful if placed on a 2handed weapon (e.g. a flaming greatsword deals 1d6 fire damage, while a flaming bastard sword deals 1d4), and effects with a % chance on hit can have higher % value or a more difficult save if placed on a 2handed weapon.

 

This "system" is obviously not perfect nor fully implemented, but with recent versions of IR I've tried to refine it and I'll still work toward it, especially with player's feedback (e.g. the way I'm handling elemental damage wasn't an idea of mine, IR's players suggested it).

 

 

Two longswords offer 2-16 damage, and if we have 1d10 single handers, they can even do 2-20. That blows away 1-10 or even 2-12 2H. Plus, you can later have the benefit of two magic weapons vs only one.

You do have a point, though it's not so easy comparing the two styles:

- there are off-hand THAC0 penalties for heavy weapons

- 2handed weapons get +1 damage and double chance to score criticals

- when 2handers have 1 attack per round and dual-wielders have 2 the latters have 2x attack rate, but quite soon in BG2 2handers will have 3 apr and dual-wielders 4, making dual-wielders attack rate only 1.3x

 

The benefit of dual wielding later on mainly consist in having the special/equipped/combat abilities of two weapons instead of one.

 

In PnP there are additional penalties when your off-hand weapon isn't light, but that rule isn't present in BG.

Actually within IR I already implemented something similar, and if you wield two katanas your off-hand thac0 will suffer a -4 penalty even with three proficiency points in two weapons style.

 

With katanas and bastards, who's going to take longswords which are supposed to be the most common weapon?

Long Swords are faster and lighter (less off-hand penalties) than bastard swords.

 

Katanas are supposed to be of superior craftmanship, and they are, but powerful enchanted specimens of this weapon are extremely rare, while you can find tons of powerful long swords in Amn.

 

Also note that as soon as weapons start to get lot of magical abilities the starting difference of 1 point of damage (1d8 instead of 1d10) becomes almost irrelevant imo.

 

 

For ranged attacks, would it be possible to add strength to slings? Darts and bows offer high rate of fire, xbows offer high damage. I'm not sure, but I think daggers have been modded to offer 2 ROF as well? This leaves axes and slings at 1 ROF, and axes get strength. If I'm mistaken and daggers only have 1 ROF, then I suggest either increasing to 2 ROF or adding strength.

We already discussed the possibility of adding strength damage to slings, and from time to time I do think about it, but for now I've not implemented it.

 

Throwing daggers already had 2 attacks per round, and I've left it unchanged.

[Gay Lord]

a) 1d8 points of damage, +1d4 points of cold damage on each hit = 7 points of damage on average

b) 1d10 points of damage, +2 points of cold damage each round for 4 rounds = 13.5 points of damage on average (14.5 if you are proficient in two handed weapons style)

 

The halberd not only deals twice as much damage, but it does so in a more effective way, because ongoing damage can for example disrupt opponent's spellcasting.

I'll admit that I have yet to see the effects of your mod in BG2, as I'm still stuck in BG1, dying and restarting over and over. If you have gone through and compared each item individually so that 2H cause more elemental damage than 1H, then good on you! That's part of the attention to detail I was praising earlier.

 

I'm looking though at low level combat at the moment, and it seems that bastards and kats are overpowered. I'm also using Hard Times, so I don't expect to get a lot of magic weapons. Currently one guy is dualling bastards, while another has a greatsword, and the damage difference is huge (2-20 vs 2-12).

 

The benefit of dual wielding later on mainly consist in having the special/equipped/combat abilities of two weapons instead of one.

Yes, there is the crit and attack penalty factors, but dual still wins out IMO. A person has to survive long enough for 2H to start evenning out with dualling, and that's a big ' if ' right there.

 

Actually within IR I already implemented something similar, and if you wield two katanas your off-hand thac0 will suffer a -4 penalty even with three proficiency points in two weapons style.

Is it in an unreleased version? I have v2 right now and I haven't noticed it. Or is this only for katanas? I've noticed a -4 for dualling bastards, but he only has two stars anyway, so that's normal. If you've implemented an additional -4 when your off-hand weapon isn't light, then my guy should have a -8, but he doesn't.

 

 

Katanas are supposed to be of superior craftmanship, and they are, but powerful enchanted specimens of this weapon are extremely rare, while you can find tons of powerful long swords in Amn.

Again, I have yet to get far in BG1 (in this playthrough) let alone BG2, but when a weapon is head and shoulders above another, it makes me question who will choose the lesser weapon... and, is the better weapon broken.

 

Also note that as soon as weapons start to get lot of magical abilities the starting difference of 1 point of damage (1d8 instead of 1d10) becomes almost irrelevant imo.

True, but in the early levels (where I'm spending a heck of a lot of time), the difference is more noticeable.

 

We already discussed the possibility of adding strength damage to slings, and from time to time I do think about it, but for now I've not implemented it.

 

Throwing daggers already had 2 attacks per round, and I've left it unchanged.

Fair enough.

[Demivrgvs]

Actually within IR I already implemented something similar, and if you wield two katanas your off-hand thac0 will suffer a -4 penalty even with three proficiency points in two weapons style.

Is it in an unreleased version? I have v2 right now and I haven't noticed it. Or is this only for katanas? I've noticed a -4 for dualling bastards, but he only has two stars anyway, so that's normal. If you've implemented an additional -4 when your off-hand weapon isn't light, then my guy should have a -8, but he doesn't.

No it's already included within v2, but you proably haven't installed it. It's the optional Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons component.

 

Each heavy weapon you equip gives -1 penalty to off-hand, thus dual-wielding two heavy weapons means -2 penalty, thus your guy should have -6 (which should be pretty harsh in BG1).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Each heavy weapon you equip gives -1 penalty to off-hand, thus dual-wielding two heavy weapons means -2 penalty, thus your guy should have -6 (which should be pretty harsh in BG1).

Especially with all the other negative modifiers the game has if the wielder doesn't have the two handed style... as said, the -6 is the cumulative modifier made from the two weapon style(-4, -10), the two weapon proficiency(+4, +8).

And the heavy weapons (0, -2)*2.

[Gay Lord]

No it's already included within v2, but you proably haven't installed it. It's the optional Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons component

 

I just checked and I have it installed. I'll start looking at the numbers more closely to confirm its presence.

 

Also, you say you are comfortable with bastards and katanas as they are. What do you think of my suggestion for increasing staff damage? I've never understood why a 1H piece of wood (club) and a 2H piece of wood (staff) would both do the same damage.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I've never understood why a 1H piece of wood (club) and a 2H piece of wood (staff) would both do the same damage.

Blunt weapons damage usually comes from leverage, and in this case, the length between the handle and the weapons tip is almost the same, if you use the staff correctly.

[Demivrgvs]

Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons

I just checked and I have it installed. I'll start looking at the numbers more closely to confirm its presence.

I've looked into it, and for some reason it didn't worked for me too, though I'm pretty sure it worked before. I've reported it to Mike and if there's something to fix we'll do it for the upcoming v3).

 

Also, you say you are comfortable with bastards and katanas as they are. What do you think of my suggestion for increasing staff damage? I've never understood why a 1H piece of wood (club) and a 2H piece of wood (staff) would both do the same damage.

This is an extract of a table I'm writing to code the "Weapon Changes" and "Speed Factor doesn't change with enchantment level" components.

 

There are few new changes over v2 such as dagger's improved speed or battleaxe's increased damage, and clubs will now deal slighlty less damage than staffs.

 

Melee Weapons - Damage - Speed - Special
Dagger: 1d4 - 1 - light
Short Sword: 1d6 - 3 - light
Long Sword: 1d8 - 5 - none
Scimitar: 1d8 - 5 - none
Battleaxe: 2d4 - 7 - heavy??
Bastard Sword: 1d10 - 8 - heavy

Ninja-to: 1d6 - 2 - light			   (dmg changed from slashing to piercing)
Wakizashi: 1d8 - 4 - light			  (dmg changed from piercing to slashing)
Katana: 1d10 - 5 - heavy

Club: 1d4 - 3 - light				   (alternatively we may use 1d3+1 and keep its 4 speed factor)
Hammer: 1d4+1 - 5 - heavy??
Mace: 2d3 - 6 - heavy
Morningstar: 1d6+1 - 7 - heavy
Flail: 2d4 - 8 - heavy

Staff: 1d6 - 4 - none
Spear: 1d8 - 6 - none
Halberd: 1d10 - 8 - can slash too, with +1 bonus to dmg and -2 penalty to speed
Two-handed Sword: 2d6 - 10 - none

[yarpen]

Oh, Demi, there's also another problem. How much damage you can deal with bare fists (not as Monk)? As far as I remember it was something like 1d6 which compared to some of the weapons looks funny (better than club, same as staff). Fists are also items, so you should fix this one I think that 1d3 value would be just fine.

 

Katana: 1d10 - 5 - heavy

I hate katanas, but I'm not sure about this one. That's great that now Bastard Sword deals same amount of damage, but should Katana be a heavy weapon? I know, it's not 'light' but none special attributes would be just fine. Also, what about adding +1 to thaco?

 

Scimitar: 1d8 - 5 - none

I'd vote for attack speed factor 6. But then it should deal additional point of damage. So nope.

 

Battleaxe: 2d4 - 7 - heavy??

Hammer: 1d4+1 - 5 - heavy??

Both of them looks rather heavy, for sure both of them aren't weapons of masters of finesse.

 

Halberd: 1d10 - 8 - can slash too, with +1 bonus to dmg and -2 penalty to speed

1 point of damage doesn't look any special, also it grants +1 to minimum damage, so I'd vote for changing damage into 1d12 for slashing form.

 

What about granting additional modes for swords? Short sword and long sword fits nicely for concept of piercing/slashing weapons (and good difference between Scimitar/Long sword).

[Demivrgvs]

Oh, Demi, there's also another problem. How much damage you can deal with bare fists (not as Monk)? As far as I remember it was something like 1d6 which compared to some of the weapons looks funny (better than club, same as staff). Fists are also items, so you should fix this one I think that 1d3 value would be just fine.

Fists (fist.itm) deal 1d2 points of damage in my install, while a 1st lvl Monk would cause 1d6 (mfist1.itm).

[yarpen]

Okay, I'm confused. I'm not sure about Scimitar. It's for sure that it shouldn't have same attack speed factor as Long Sword. For first thought: yup, it's bigger. But then comparing how fast are both of these in movies (xD) Scimitars are just faster. So what's your opinion in this matter?

 

Oh, and don't you think that slashing version of Halberd should deal 2D6 of damage, and Two-Handed sword 1D12?

[Demivrgvs]

Katana: 1d10 - 5 - heavy

I hate katanas, but I'm not sure about this one. That's great that now Bastard Sword deals same amount of damage, but should Katana be a heavy weapon? I know, it's not 'light' but none special attributes would be just fine. Also, what about adding +1 to thaco?

The 'heavy' flag is more for balancing purposes, but I also think it's quite appropriate. Musashi Miyamoto is quite famous for being the first samurai to dual wield two katanas with good results, as it required exceptional strength and outstanding skill.

 

Battleaxe: 2d4 - 7 - heavy??

Hammer: 1d4+1 - 5 - heavy??

Both of them looks rather heavy, for sure both of them aren't weapons of masters of finesse.

I agree, but I wasn't 100% sure.

 

Halberd: 1d10 - 8 - can slash too, with +1 bonus to dmg and -2 penalty to speed

1 point of damage doesn't look any special, also it grants +1 to minimum damage, so I'd vote for changing damage into 1d12 for slashing form.

 

Oh, and don't you think that slashing version of Halberd should deal 2D6 of damage, and Two-Handed sword 1D12?

For me 1d12 may actually be even better, but I don't want halberd to deal more damage than greatsword because that would make the former superior to the latter in every aspect (beter vs. armor - more damaging).

 

 

What about granting additional modes for swords? Short sword and long sword fits nicely for concept of piercing/slashing weapons (and good difference between Scimitar/Long sword).

Surely not for v3, and I'd probably be against it because it would be a pain to handle imo. For example if long swords can be used as piercing weapons you'd end up with them being very effective against heavy armors.

[yarpen]

Surely not for v3, and I'd probably be against it because it would be a pain to handle imo. For example if long swords can be used as piercing weapons you'd end up with them being very effective against heavy armors.

Yeah, but not with 1d8 damage but 1d4 instead of. And short sword would have 1d6 piercing/1d4 slashing. I know that you don't have too much time for finishing v3, so it was just random idea.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Melee Weapons - Damage - Speed - Special

Dagger: 1d4 - 1 - light

Short Sword: 1d6 - 3 - light

Long Sword: 1d8 - 5 - none

Scimitar: 1d8 - 5 - none

Battleaxe: 2d4 - 7 - heavy??

Bastard Sword: 1d10 - 8 - heavy

 

Ninja-to: 1d6 - 2 - light (dmg changed from slashing to piercing)

Wakizashi: 1d8 - 4 - light (dmg changed from piercing to slashing)

Katana: 1d10 - 5 - heavy

 

Club: 1d4 - 3 - light (alternatively we may use 1d3+1 and keep its 4 speed factor)

Hammer: 1d4+1 - 5 - heavy??

Mace: 2d3 - 6 - heavy

Morningstar: 1d6+1 - 7 - heavy

Flail: 2d4 - 8 - heavy

That's a good table to limit the weapon enchantments, Light as +3 max, none to +4 max, and heavy +5 max.

Decides this, the Katana should have an Extra Heavy tag, that makes it also reduce the main hands weapon Thac0 with -1 if dual wielded in either hand...

 

By the way, as the stile the Katana is usually wielded and used, it's impossible to use it in as dual weapon, cause the cutting is done from the hilt_outwards and preferably with two hands. Unless you use them like backwards scissors.

[Mike1072]

Dual Wielding Changes for Light and Heavy Weapons

I just checked and I have it installed. I'll start looking at the numbers more closely to confirm its presence.

I've looked into it, and for some reason it didn't worked for me too, though I'm pretty sure it worked before. I've reported it to Mike and if there's something to fix we'll do it for the upcoming v3).

It works fine for me. This is one of the components that doesn't adjust descriptions in way, so it's a bit harder to detect. If you open up Near Infinity and compare sw1h01 (Bastard Sword), sw1h04 (Long Sword), and sw1h07 (Short Sword), the first should have a -1 "bonus" to offhand THAC0 effect, the second should have no offhand THAC0 effects, and the third should have a +1 bonus to offhand THAC0.