Some issues

[Guest Incantatar]

I have a fun solo noreload mage run active and i ran into some bugs/issues. Probably from SR, since i have not much installed.

 

// Log of Currently Installed WeiDU Mods
// The top of the file is the 'oldest' mod
// ~TP2_File~ #language_number #component_number // [subcomponent Name -> ] Component Name [ : Version]
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #0 // BG2 Fixpack - Core Fixes: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #1 // BG2 Fixpack - Game Text Update: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #3 // BETA Core Fixes (please check the readme!): v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #101 // Improved Spell Animations: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #103 // Mixed-Use Dagger Fixes: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #104 // Ghreyfain's Holy Symbol Fixes: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #109 // Corrected Summoned Demon Behavior: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #110 // Additional Script Fixes: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #111 // Bard Song Fixes: v8
~BG2FIXPACK/SETUP-BG2FIXPACK.TP2~ #0 #113 // Additional Alignment Fixes: v8
~SETUP-DUNGEONBEGONE.TP2~ #0 #0 // Dungeon Be Gone V1.6
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #0 // Spell Revisions: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #10 // Deva and Planetar Animations: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #20 // Mirror Image Fix: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #30 // Dispel Magic Fix: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #40 // Cure Sleep Fix: v3
~SPELL_REV/SETUP-SPELL_REV.TP2~ #0 #50 // Remove Disabled Spells from Spell Selection Screens: v3
~ATWEAKS/SETUP-ATWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #115 // Allow Mages to scribe memorized spells onto scrolls: v3.03
~ATWEAKS/SETUP-ATWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #205 // Prevent Project Image and Simulacrum clones from using quickslot items: v3.03
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #60 // Weapon Animation Tweaks: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #130 // Force All Dialogue to Pause Game: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #1080 // Add Bags of Holding: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #1170 // Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash): v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2080 // Delay High Level Abilities: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #2261 // Alter Mage Spell Progression Table -> PnP Table: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3040 // Make Bags of Holding Bottomless: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3060 // Remove "You Must Gather Your Party..." Sound (Weimer): v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3080 // Unlimited Ammo Stacking: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3090 // Unlimited Gem and Jewelry Stacking: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3100 // Unlimited Potion Stacking: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3110 // Unlimited Scroll Stacking: v8
~BG2_TWEAKS/SETUP-BG2_TWEAKS.TP2~ #0 #3141 // Faster Chapter 1&2 Cut-Scenes and Dreams -> Non-Silly Version: v8

 

 

-First i had a few ctds, but i don't know - could be anything. Suggestions to increase stability? E.g. getting rid of the beta fixes?

-Horror does not work properly. The innate version at least. Enemies that are stated "panic"ked and yellow circled don't run away, they attack normally. Also i think that they even disregard saving throws when affected by web.(not 100%sure)

-Kithix went hostile when i cast web on her. Do i need to install Gminion or general AI from SCS to fix stupid summons? I thought SR also took care of that.

 

Questions: Cone of Cold still destroys possesions right? What about Hakeashars? Are enemy gated fiends also dangerous for enemies? Do latter need to be Prot.f.e. and will be attacked if it's dispelled?

 

 

Opinion: Great mod. What bugs me are the changes to the single elemental protections. I don't see why they were leveled up. I only use them when i'm not reloading and low level but now they're not even useful for that. (1lvl 7 spell for 4 lvl 5 spells.) The mustard slime is pretty gimped now.

Cool summons, but the only 2 controlable summons that are now magic resistant are susceptible to dispel magic, so won't live 3 rounds in a serious mage duel (which is their only use).

 

More to come i guess.

[Shaitan]

Concerning destroyable loot. You have to fiddle with gore.

[Guest Incantatar]

The issue with Kithix seems to be specific to her.

 

The description of Sunfire states it circumvents magic resistance. It does not.

[Demivrgvs]

1. First i had a few ctds, but i don't know - could be anything. Suggestions to increase stability? E.g. getting rid of the beta fixes?

2. Horror does not work properly. The innate version at least. Enemies that are stated "panic"ked and yellow circled don't run away, they attack normally. Also i think that they even disregard saving throws when affected by web.(not 100%sure)

3. Kithix went hostile when i cast web on her. Do i need to install Gminion or general AI from SCS to fix stupid summons? I thought SR also took care of that.

1. I never had any ctd report because of SR. Do you have them when casting a particular spell?

2. The files look fine, I'll test them again. I heard things about AI still partially working while panicked in the SCS forums, thus it may be related to how BG scripts run.

3. Well, SR takes care of summons/conjurations, it doesn't touch the AI of creatures which have nothing to do with spells. Kitthix's AI should work fine with Item Revisions installed though.

 

The description of Sunfire states it circumvents magic resistance. It does not.

You didn't install the hotfixes.

 

 

Questions: Cone of Cold still destroys possesions right? What about Hakeashars? Are enemy gated fiends also dangerous for enemies? Do latter need to be Prot.f.e. and will be attacked if it's dispelled?

To remove all "destroy loot" issues you simply need to turn off the "gore" option. Hakeashar doesn't destroy the loot anyway. Fiends are indeed dangerous for enemies, but yes you still need to be under PfE.

 

 

Opinion: Great mod. What bugs me are the changes to the single elemental protections. I don't see why they were leveled up. I only use them when i'm not reloading and low level but now they're not even useful for that. (1lvl 7 spell for 4 lvl 5 spells.)

Well, only two of them (fire/cold) were leveled up because they now grant 100% resistance instead of 50%. The other two (electrical/acid) were already 5th lvl spells. The 7th lvl Protection from Elements lasts half as much, and more often than not you don't need to be protected from more than all elements (e.g. Acid is almost never used, and the only very common damage type is fire).

 

The mustard slime is pretty gimped now.

The form usable via Polymorph Self? If yes I can hardly think it's a weak form, but indeed it's not exploitable as it was in vanilla (e.g. to make the AI waste spells on a silly uber immune slime).

 

Cool summons, but the only 2 controlable summons that are now magic resistant are susceptible to dispel magic, so won't live 3 rounds in a serious mage duel (which is their only use).

If you're speaking of Nishruu and Hakeashar they were affected by Dispel in vanilla too.

[Guest Incantatar]

1. I never had any ctd report because of SR. Do you have them when casting a particular spell?

 

No, only while area transitions and else just random.

2. The files look fine, I'll test them again. I heard things about AI still partially working while panicked in the SCS forums, thus it may be related to how BG scripts run.

Encounter thieves were the only enemies i found it did work at all.

Examples: http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4217/baldr002e.png

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1484/baldr001.png

 

3. Well, SR takes care of summons/conjurations, it doesn't touch the AI of creatures which have nothing to do with spells. Kitthix's AI should work fine with Item Revisions installed though.

ahh i see.

 

To remove all "destroy loot" issues you simply need to turn off the "gore" option. Hakeashar doesn't destroy the loot anyway.

Yeah after realizing summoned shadows also destroy loot by freezing, i think gore sadly needs to go. My understanding was that Nishruus and their brothers could potentially destroy magic items in vanilla.

 

Well, only two of them (fire/cold) were leveled up because they now grant 100% resistance instead of 50%.100/50

Yes i know, but it was more feasible to cast all Pro. spells. The change makes more sense but i'd personally still prefer the old way. Perhaps make them all 3rd level and (100/50).

The duration makes no big difference to me since at the time you have access to 7th lvl spells (and find the scroll) it's duration is probably longer than the most playtime before with 1/turn lvl.

 

The form usable via Polymorph Self? If yes I can hardly think it's a weak form, but indeed it's not exploitable as it was in vanilla (e.g. to make the AI waste spells on a silly uber immune slime).

Yes. It was cheesy to use against casters before thats true, but at least it should be immune to all mind affecting spells and also acid since it itself is acidic.

 

If you're speaking of Nishruu and Hakeashar they were affected by Dispel in vanilla too.

Oh ok. I wonder why there is this atweaks pnp component then... Still, with sufficient AI no high level mage will have any trouble with them, except he fired all his dispels and death spells away and at that time is probably not very dangerous anymore. So the only use i see with them is playing with bad AI.

[aVENGER_(RR)]

If you're speaking of Nishruu and Hakeashar they were affected by Dispel in vanilla too.

Oh ok. I wonder why there is this atweaks pnp component then...

 

In the unmodded game, the Dispel Magic vulnerability only works when opponents are targeting friendly Nishruu/Hakeashar (i.e. those summoned by the party). Due to a scripting oversight, it doesn't work when players are targeting hostile Nishruu/Hakeashar.

 

aTweaks remedies that by ensuring that the same rules apply to both the player and the AI.

[Demivrgvs]

CTDs

1. I never had any ctd report because of SR. Do you have them when casting a particular spell?

No, only while area transitions and else just random.

Then I highly doubt they can be related to SR.

 

Horror

2. The files look fine, I'll test them again. I heard things about AI still partially working while panicked in the SCS forums, thus it may be related to how BG scripts run.

Encounter thieves were the only enemies i found it did work at all.

Well, Horror and its innate version still use "panic" opcode, thus if there's any issue it's not caused by SR. I just tested them in the starting dungeon and they worked, though opponents occasionally still attack even while panicked as if under "confusion", but it seems to be quite rare.

 

Nishruu

My understanding was that Nishruus and their brothers could potentially destroy magic items in vanilla.

Yep they could, but they don't within SR.

 

If you're speaking of Nishruu and Hakeashar they were affected by Dispel in vanilla too.

Oh ok. I wonder why there is this atweaks pnp component then... Still, with sufficient AI no high level mage will have any trouble with them, except he fired all his dispels and death spells away and at that time is probably not very dangerous anymore. So the only use i see with them is playing with bad AI.

As aVENGER says Dispel worked fine for the AI but not for players. You probably never noticed this feature because vanilla's AI is lame and because vanilla's descriptions of the spells were not as accurate as SR ones (ergo there was no mention of this).

 

 

Protection from Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire

Well, only two of them (fire/cold) were leveled up because they now grant 100% resistance instead of 50%.100/50

Yes i know, but it was more feasible to cast all Pro. spells. The change makes more sense but i'd personally still prefer the old way. Perhaps make them all 3rd level and (100/50).

By "100/50" you mean 50? Anyway, making them 3rd lvl spells with 50% resistance would remove one of the most important new feature which grants the affected creature immune to spells of the respective element, and from the spell-disrupting "damage animation" when attacked by those spells.

 

 

Mustard Jelly

The form usable via Polymorph Self? If yes I can hardly think it's a weak form, but indeed it's not exploitable as it was in vanilla (e.g. to make the AI waste spells on a silly uber immune slime).

Yes. It was cheesy to use against casters before thats true, but at least it should be immune to all mind affecting spells and also acid since it itself is acidic.

It already is immune to almost all mind affecting spells, but I'll see if I have to do something about it. Regarding the "acid" resistance I don't know, I thought it too, but I left it out simply to keep the jelly more similar to PnP. This form is already outstandingly powerful and full of resistances, but I'll let players decide.

[Guest Incantatar]

Then I highly doubt they can be related to SR.

Like i said, i'm not sure. Vanilla is stable so i think i'll try and go from there and figure out what is causing it.

 

 

Horror

Well, Horror and its innate version still use "panic" opcode, thus if there's any issue it's not caused by SR. I just tested them in the starting dungeon and they worked, though opponents occasionally still attack even while panicked as if under "confusion", but it seems to be quite rare.

It's very strange, in all the years i'm playing the spell Spook always didn't work. The creatures running away and immediately attacking again. And this was with dozens of different setups/installations. Horror usually worked as intended though.

 

 

Protection from Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire

By "100/50" you mean 50? Anyway, making them 3rd lvl spells with 50% resistance would remove one of the most important new feature which grants the affected creature immune to spells of the respective element, and from the spell-disrupting "damage animation" when attacked by those spells.

The description said 100% prot from normal fire/cold and 50% from magic fire/cold. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is in game terms but iirc you could e.g. walk unharmed over lava floors.

Against your point i would hold that formerly 5th level mages could protect themselves a good bit from enemy's cones of cold and fireballs etc. Now they need to be lvl 9. Thats also a favour to the low to mid-lvl AI which i understand you had your eyes on.

 

 

Mustard Jelly

This form is already outstandingly powerful and full of resistances, but I'll let players decide.

It has it's defensive uses when you know exactly what youre facing. But for example it's stupid to use against an enchanter to be immune against his charm and confusion spells when he can fire a successful Power Word:Sleep or dominate you. The backstab immunity is redundant with Stoneskins and Mirror Images. The normal weapons immunity is great for early weak encounters. But they normally don't even need lvl 4 spells. Immunity to electricity is very cool since you can still use wands, which "shouldn't" be possible and you use metaknowledge of traps, which i personally try to avoid. It's a question of playstyle i guess, for me it now has only very limited uses.

[Guest Incantatar]

Oh and your argument that you could cheesily use it against enemy caster was foremost a AI problem. If an enemy would polymorph into a vanilla slime i would simply summon some monsters. A thing that a good AI script could do too.

[Demivrgvs]

Horror

It's very strange, in all the years i'm playing the spell Spook always didn't work. The creatures running away and immediately attacking again. And this was with dozens of different setups/installations. Horror usually worked as intended though.

Well, Horror and Spook use the very same opcode, thus I really don't know why they should work differently. In my games I never had problems with them, I do know some players had, but as I said the only thing I can imagine is a a script-related issue. Try playing with SCS, I think David recently worked on "scripts running under panic" for some reason.

 

 

Protection from Acid/Cold/Electricity/Fire

By "100/50" you mean 50? Anyway, making them 3rd lvl spells with 50% resistance would remove one of the most important new feature which grants the affected creature immune to spells of the respective element, and from the spell-disrupting "damage animation" when attacked by those spells.

The description said 100% prot from normal fire/cold and 50% from magic fire/cold. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is in game terms but iirc you could e.g. walk unharmed over lava floors.

Ahh, I forgot the misleading difference between "magical fire/cold" and "normal fire/cold". Well, not only the original game didn't implemented such difference well, but "magical fire" damage also lead to crashes, and thus within SR there no "magical fire/cold damage" but simply "fire/cold" damage.

 

Against your point i would hold that formerly 5th level mages could protect themselves a good bit from enemy's cones of cold and fireballs etc. Now they need to be lvl 9. Thats also a favour to the low to mid-lvl AI which i understand you had your eyes on.

Ok, you have a point.

 

Anyway 7th lvl mages have Fire Shield (Red/Blue) which grant both 50% resistance and damage against attackers. I'm fairly sure SCS uses them, not to mention the AI will "cheat" and still use the 3rd lvl slots for Protection from Fire/Cold (but you're supposed to assume it's using the 5th lvl ones).

 

If most players think a low level Abjuration spell of this kind is a must-have I may "restore" it. What about priest's Resist Fire and Cold? I'd probably prefer the AI to still "cheat" and use the 5th lvl version via spwi319 and spwi320 though.

 

P.S Just to be sure, a 100% fire resistance (e.g. immunity to Dragon's Breath HLA) as a 3rd level spell is utterly insane and ridiculously overpowered. I hope we all agree on this matter, do we?

 

 

Mustard Jelly

Oh and your argument that you could cheesily use it against enemy caster was foremost a AI problem. If an enemy would polymorph into a vanilla slime i would simply summon some monsters. A thing that a good AI script could do too.

Well, probably not even SCS scripts are so good to handle that.

[Michayel]

It never occurred to me that a 3rd level spell, granting complete immunity from fire was 'overpowered'. On the one hand, I do take your point; on the other hand, I think it is a good example of a low-level spell being useful right through to the end of the game. This idea of lower level spells (apart from the obvious magic missile etc) retaining their usefulness and useability even at higher levels, seems to be one of the central ideals of the SR mod, and is one of the reasons I am so excited to try the mod.

 

The mod-author leaves instructions about how to pick and choose which Revised Spells to install, and has even helped me with specific questions, so I guess all players are free to find their own balance.

[Demivrgvs]

Protection from Fire

It never occurred to me that a 3rd level spell, granting complete immunity from fire was 'overpowered'. On the one hand, I do take your point; on the other hand, I think it is a good example of a low-level spell being useful right through to the end of the game.

Well, within SR there are quite a lot of spells which can be good examples of "low-level spell being useful right through to the end of the game", but a 3rd lvl spell granting complete immunity to fire-based spells would only be a good example of "low-level spell being overpowered right through to the end of the game".

 

AD&D version of this spell granted 50% resistance.

 

This idea of lower level spells (apart from the obvious magic missile etc) retaining their usefulness and useability even at higher levels, seems to be one of the central ideals of the SR mod, and is one of the reasons I am so excited to try the mod.

Yep, that is indeed one of my main goals within SR, but "balance" is also crucial. A 3rd lvl slot is too cheap for something which allows the caster to remain completely unharmed by fire-based spells, which are by far the most common damaging spells (Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Swarm, Dragon's Breath, ...).

 

Furthermore the spell can be cast on party members, which combined with a cheap 3rd lvl slot would make it even more "exploitable".

[Duckfeet]

AD&D version of this spell granted 50% resistance.

 

A 3rd lvl slot is too cheap for something which allows the caster to remain completely unharmed by fire-based spells, which are by far the most common damaging spells (Fireball, Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Swarm, Dragon's Breath, ...).

 

Furthermore the spell can be cast on party members, which combined with a cheap 3rd lvl slot would make it even more "exploitable".

 

Vanilla ProFire is supposed to give 80% protection vs magical fires of the type you list above. So a few high level fireballs and you're still toast, protections or no. Unfortunately vanilla just didn't do it properly and ended up giving 100% protection against everything but you still got the damage animation.

 

I think a 100% immunity with no damage animation is hugely better and more useful than 80%, and such an upgrade justifies bumping up the spell a few levels.

 

I think the priest's resist fire/cold is appropriate as a 3rd level mage spell. Just got to make sure the various +x% resistances don't stack to >100% resistance and end up with fire-based regeneration.

[Guest Incantar]

I really never heard that the elemental spells were overpowered in vanilla. (except the cheese with positive resistance) And i doubt anyone except tactical players use them frequently. I know i only used them for dragons till i started playing extremely more tactical (in a defensive way).

Elemental immunity is also much more useful in p&p than in a crpg.

[Setharnas]

From a roleplaying point of view I'd say protection from various elements is something that would seem rather mandatory for mages at the very start of their 'career', i.e. when they work on alchemical formulae and improve their magical powers without having the deeper understanding of the higher levels yet. So I'd like to see something like a level 1 spell for each resistance with, say, 20% + 5%/level or even 50% + 5% each new spell circle level. Of course everything capped at 100%.

 

Anyway, thanks for the xR mods. Even though I sometimes feel some of the changes need not necessarily be quite as drastic, I welcome and very much like them as a whole. Another way to breathe new life into this evergreen game besides completely new content.