Planning a romance

[ericp07]

Hello,

 

It is with great trepidation that I address the writing of a romance between my mod NPC and charname Hinaeariel, my female Sylvan Elf ranger, will have a romance component for a male Human, Half-Elf, or Elf, and I've received some assistance in structuring it. I welcome any and all feedback about this.

 

My vision is for four continuous conversations, each broken into three different chats. Each of the four topics will be something Hinaeariel appreciates and values most in people in general, and in charname in particular (provided, of course, that he possesses the qualities she admires). For consistency, I'll run each topic through all three chats before moving to the next one. I haven't determined how they'll be spaced throughout the game.

 

Topic 1 - Independence

 

Topic 2 - Acceptance of others, especially when they're different from you

 

Topic 3 - Compassion

 

Topic 4 - Self-sacrifice for a worthy cause

 

I've been advised to limit event-based talks to one or two, if any, but having four topics suggests to me that I could include one event-based talk for each topic.

 

Among Hinaeariel's highest-held virtues are self-sufficiency, compassion, understanding, and patience. If it's relevant, she highly values visual arts, loves music, appreciates drama, and is fond of beatifying mundane objects. She keeps a journal (which might be the subject of a separate thread, if I remember). She admires Humans' adaptability and flexibility. While inexperienced with romance and courtship, she's willing to commit to a long-term relationship with the right person. But, I digress...(?)

 

How does the structure look? All this is coming to me slowly; while I haven't written dialogue for the romance yet, I've found a few choice words/phrases/concepts that will serve thematically, I think. I'd greatly appreciate whatever input anyone has on this issue, especially what works well and what to avoid, and any links or references to materials I should study are most welcome

 

Thanks for your attention and kind consideration. I'm hoping for a carefully implemented and well received end result

 

Best wishes,

Eric

[Ipsy]

Well, first of all, you might find this discussion helpful.

 

More, as Bardess (author of Fiars and Moddie NPCs) put it on her development blog, at least some people will probably going to play with other romanceable NPCs or RE installed. Not trying to dissuade you - just something to keep in mind.

 

Personally, I would find it somewhat repetitive to have four conversations on a single topic. Perhaps one about, say, how she values independence, and how the PC must find his inner strength useful in adventuring. Then, some time later, the PC can tell her the whole story, from Candlekeep to Chateau Irenicus.

 

If she tends to beautify mundane objects, perhaps the PC might give her some meaningful gift. A crystal flower (so it wouldn't fade), an enchanted bow/armor to destroy evil/protect her, a carved bird symbolizing freedom, etc. And either the PC does this out of friendship and she takes it to mean more, the PC tries to demonstrate his interest in her and she doesn't realize it, or some combination thereof.

 

Perhaps she might be infected by lycanthropy in her battles against Malarites, at which point there would be a quest for the PC to cure her. Quests are good Plus, if she was in danger, the PC would have a chance to show that he cared about her well-being.

 

An elf PC might share reverie with her, or communicate via the elven spirit. Or she might discuss what being an elf means to her, since the PC was presumably raised as a human, among humans.

 

She might want to talk about her devotion to Mielikki, her hatred of Malarites, or her love of nature. The PC might understand perfectly (particularly if they too are devoted to a god or cause) or maybe she'd explain it to them.

 

Finally, after they have talked for some time, she might ask the PC if they're "just friends," or if there's something more between them.

 

Just tossing ideas out there Hope this helped.

 

Edit: Number one bad idea: NEVER dictate the PC's feelings. You can't possibly account for all PCs that way, and it's needlessly restrictive. Just a bad idea in general. Player choice is good, and the more, the better.

[ericp07]

Well, first of all, you might find this discussion helpful.

 

More, as Bardess (author of Fiars and Moddie NPCs) put it on her development blog, at least some people will probably going to play with other romanceable NPCs or RE installed. Not trying to dissuade you - just something to keep in mind.

 

Personally, I would find it somewhat repetitive to have four conversations on a single topic. Perhaps one about, say, how she values independence, and how the PC must find his inner strength useful in adventuring. Then, some time later, the PC can tell her the whole story, from Candlekeep to Chateau Irenicus.

 

If she tends to beautify mundane objects, perhaps the PC might give her some meaningful gift. A crystal flower (so it wouldn't fade), an enchanted bow/armor to destroy evil/protect her, a carved bird symbolizing freedom, etc. And either the PC does this out of friendship and she takes it to mean more, the PC tries to demonstrate his interest in her and she doesn't realize it, or some combination thereof.

 

Perhaps she might be infected by lycanthropy in her battles against Malarites, at which point there would be a quest for the PC to cure her. Quests are good Plus, if she was in danger, the PC would have a chance to show that he cared about her well-being.

 

An elf PC might share reverie with her, or communicate via the elven spirit. Or she might discuss what being an elf means to her, since the PC was presumably raised as a human, among humans.

 

She might want to talk about her devotion to Mielikki, her hatred of Malarites, or her love of nature. The PC might understand perfectly (particularly if they too are devoted to a god or cause) or maybe she'd explain it to them.

 

Finally, after they have talked for some time, she might ask the PC if they're "just friends," or if there's something more between them.

 

Just tossing ideas out there Hope this helped.

 

Edit: Number one bad idea: NEVER dictate the PC's feelings. You can't possibly account for all PCs that way, and it's needlessly restrictive. Just a bad idea in general. Player choice is good, and the more, the better.

 

Thank you for this input! My sheet of jotted-down notes for the romance is quickly filling up; at this rate, it may become a folder of its own before I start coding *LOL*

 

As for conversations on a single topic, my idea was to take one topic, and have three short conversations based on it, before moving to the next topic. The topic could be expressed or implied, just a matter of discussing something that involves or illustrates that quality (as each topic is a quality the NPC admires in a person). I won't force it, though; if a topic feels sufficiently addressed and covered with just one or two meaningful discussions, I'll call it good and move on. At least, that's my vision as of now.

 

The NPC will have plenty to say about various aspects of life, especially Elven life, so there will be chats that exist separate from (not influencing) the development of a romance. Even after the last romance chat (LT) takes place, though, conversation will need to continue, illustrating that the romance is a continuing thing

 

Thanks again,

Eric

[berelinde]

I've found that whenever I've tried to write a conversation for an NPC "about" something, it usually winds up feeling forced. OK, there are times when you really need that one conversation about an issue, but in general, people don't talk like that. They talk about normal, everyday things. For an adventurer, this can include an awful lot.

 

For example, independence is important to her. Instead of talking about independence, exactly, she might have a converstaion that begins "I remember my neighbor, when I was a child. He lost his wife years ago, but he did the best he could... though he never did manage to dress himself properly. I swear he was colorblind. It's funny how people get like that, relying on others to select the clothing they'll wear that day. I can't see you being that dependent on another." And the conversation can move on to how the PC is, in fact, capable of dressing himself without assistance. From there, the conversation could move on to other ways the PC is able to take care of himself, but the point is that the conversation didn't begin that way. It began with a simple comment and progressed from there.

 

So yeah, it's possible that she could have four conversations about each of her key points, but they wouldn't all start out as "So, can you make it without me?"

 

And don't forget conversations that exist just to lighten the mood. The party has a job to do and I don't expect your NPC to forget that, but there is a time and a place for levity. Players need it after the "heavy" dialogues, especially.

[ericp07]

I've found that whenever I've tried to write a conversation for an NPC "about" something, it usually winds up feeling forced. OK, there are times when you really need that one conversation about an issue, but in general, people don't talk like that. They talk about normal, everyday things. For an adventurer, this can include an awful lot.

 

For example, independence is important to her. Instead of talking about independence, exactly, she might have a converstaion that begins "I remember my neighbor, when I was a child. He lost his wife years ago, but he did the best he could... though he never did manage to dress himself properly. I swear he was colorblind. It's funny how people get like that, relying on others to select the clothing they'll wear that day. I can't see you being that dependent on another." And the conversation can move on to how the PC is, in fact, capable of dressing himself without assistance. From there, the conversation could move on to other ways the PC is able to take care of himself, but the point is that the conversation didn't begin that way. It began with a simple comment and progressed from there.

 

So yeah, it's possible that she could have four conversations about each of her key points, but they wouldn't all start out as "So, can you make it without me?"

 

And don't forget conversations that exist just to lighten the mood. The party has a job to do and I don't expect your NPC to forget that, but there is a time and a place for levity. Players need it after the "heavy" dialogues, especially.

 

This has occurred to me, as well. Conversations should be more "organic," rather than "OK, let's talk about such-and-such for a while." Maybe PC or NPC will notice something, be reminded of an event that would illustrate an implied point, remark about something the party just experienced or observed. That sort of thing. I was thinking about this as I sat down to prepare several sheets of paper (is that old-school, or what? Using a real pen on real paper!) so I can sketch things out and write the spoken lines.

 

I keep thinking it will be difficult to write from the PC's point of view, but then I remind myself that that's not necessarily so, as we already know his story well enough to have a sense of his schema when discussing one thing or another. Still, I want things to be creative and appear spontaneous.

 

Just chippin' away at this wall of writer's block...

 

Thanks so much!

Eric

[ericp07]

Now, as for the .d files used for the romance, I've been reading conflicting opinions that have me a bit unsure. Some say that all the dialogue should go in the J file, while at least one post suggested putting it in the B file. At least there's agreement, it appears, about putting the code blocks that script the firing of dialogues in the NPC's .baf/override script. Is there a current convention to follow here?

 

Thanks,

Eric

[berelinde]

I like to put everything scripted, including NPC/NPC banters in the J-file. That way, the only thing in the B is unscripted banter. All this means is that state weighting for crossmod is easier.

[ericp07]

I like to put everything scripted, including NPC/NPC banters in the J-file. That way, the only thing in the B is unscripted banter. All this means is that state weighting for crossmod is easier.

 

I've been advised to put event-based romance talks in J.d, and non even-based ("random"?) romance talks in B.d, on-rest conditions/triggers for dialogue in D.baf, and after-rest conditions/triggers in the NPC's .baf (which I use as her override script). I've spent a few days agonzing over this, struggling to understand what should go where, and why, and encountering frustration when I see that some things can go in more than one file, but that it may be better to place them in one file rather than another. I think I've straightened all that out, but I'm still a bit dizzy from it.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[berelinde]

I like to put everything scripted, including NPC/NPC banters in the J-file. That way, the only thing in the B is unscripted banter. All this means is that state weighting for crossmod is easier.

 

I've been advised to put event-based romance talks in J.d, and non even-based ("random"?) romance talks in B.d, on-rest conditions/triggers for dialogue in D.baf, and after-rest conditions/triggers in the NPC's .baf (which I use as her override script).

Why do you ask for opinions when you have already decided what you're going to do?

 

It doesn't really matter whether you put scripted talks in the J-file or the B-file. The game doesn't much care if you use StartDialogueNoSet() to begin a dialogue or Interact().

 

I use the J-file for all scripted dialogue because putting any scripted dialogue in the B-file means that crossmod becomes more of a nuissance to code. That, and if you've got the state weighting wrong, you could wind up with a string of dialogues all firing off at once.

 

Before-rest dialogues must be triggered by the dream script. All other scripted dialogues are triggered from the override script. At least that part is easy to explain.

 

If you put regular, sequentially scripted dialogues in the B-file, you will have to make very sure that they are ahead of *all* unscripted banter. If you don't, you'll have every unscripted banter fire off before you get to the talk you wanted. That's why I put it in the J. It's just easier than fooling around with state weights.

[cmorgan]

Old Guard who understand state weighting did exactly what BioWare did, and put scripted lovetalks in AERIEB.DLG, etc. They included both script-triggered and unscripted stuff there.

 

Then when more folks started modding, things got complicated. As in "hey my mod dialog is firing when Aerie has a Lovetalk, and vice versa".

 

Even more folks started modding stuff in, and the B-file began to get pretty big; and PPG's banterPakc added scripted banter in the banter file that starts like this from .bcs

added to eldorn's script via EXTEND_BOTTOM

IF
InParty(Myself)
GlobalGT("BKeldorn16","LOCALS",0)
Global("FWBanterKelValGods","GLOBAL",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("FWBanterKelValGods","GLOBAL",1)
END

IF
InParty(Myself)
InParty("Minsc")
Global("Chapter","GLOBAL",6)
AreaCheck("AR0808")
Global("FWBanterMinscVamp","LOCALS",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
RealSetGlobalTimer("FWKeldornMinscVamp","LOCALS",50)
SetGlobal("FWBanterMinscVamp","LOCALS",1)
END

IF
InParty(Myself)
InParty("Minsc")
See("Minsc")
!Dead("Minsc")
Global("Chapter","GLOBAL",6)
RealGlobalTimerExpired("FWKeldornMinscVamp","LOCALS")
CombatCounter(0)
Global("FWBanterMinscVamp","LOCALS",1)
OR(3)
AreaCheck("AR0800")
AreaCheck("AR0808")
AreaCheck("AR0809")
!Dead("C6BODHI")
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("FWBanterMinscVamp","LOCALS",2)
Interact("Minsc")
END

 

So yep - older materials and tutorials explain things using these ideas. But as things go along, most modders have found that it is easier, safer, and much quicker troubleshooting to put anything and everything that is not random banter called by the engine (it can be conditioned, just not specifically called) on the joined-file, so that you have the tightest control (and are less likely to block BioWare(tm standard talks).

 

I second berelinde's recommendation - I try to make B = uncsripted, unsequential, and J = scripted/sequential/interjection/I_C_T, etc. because (among other reasons) I have found it much easier to troubleshoot via PID.

[ericp07]

I like to put everything scripted, including NPC/NPC banters in the J-file. That way, the only thing in the B is unscripted banter. All this means is that state weighting for crossmod is easier.

 

I've been advised to put event-based romance talks in J.d, and non even-based ("random"?) romance talks in B.d, on-rest conditions/triggers for dialogue in D.baf, and after-rest conditions/triggers in the NPC's .baf (which I use as her override script).

Why do you ask for opinions when you have already decided what you're going to do?

 

It doesn't really matter whether you put scripted talks in the J-file or the B-file. The game doesn't much care if you use StartDialogueNoSet() to begin a dialogue or Interact().

 

I use the J-file for all scripted dialogue because putting any scripted dialogue in the B-file means that crossmod becomes more of a nuissance to code. That, and if you've got the state weighting wrong, you could wind up with a string of dialogues all firing off at once.

 

Before-rest dialogues must be triggered by the dream script. All other scripted dialogues are triggered from the override script. At least that part is easy to explain.

 

If you put regular, sequentially scripted dialogues in the B-file, you will have to make very sure that they are ahead of *all* unscripted banter. If you don't, you'll have every unscripted banter fire off before you get to the talk you wanted. That's why I put it in the J. It's just easier than fooling around with state weights.

 

Does the strategy I described not agree with what you, berelinde, and cmorgan say about this? Scripted/event-based stuff in J, non event-based (random) stuff in B? Oh, and D.baf containing nothing besides on/rest script, and after-rest script in mynpcD.baf? Where am I going wrong? And by wrong, I mean where does this conflict with your strategy?

 

I'm not trying to cause trouble. I'm just trying to write a mod.

 

Thanks,

Eric

[berelinde]

Probably should have pointed out that PID *always* has to go at the very end of the J-file. You probably already knew that.

[berelinde]

Does the strategy I described not agree with what you, berelinde, and cmorgan say about this? Scripted/event-based stuff in J, non event-based (random) stuff in B? Oh, and D.baf containing nothing besides on/rest script, and after-rest script in mynpcD.baf? Where am I going wrong? And by wrong, I mean where does this conflict with your strategy?

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you intended to put only night talks in the J, but that you were going to put all other scipted, sequential dialogue in the B. If you're planning on putting only random stuff in the B, you should be fine.

 

If you are naming your dream script mynpcd.baf and your override script mynpcs.baf, you would put the before-rest banter scripts in mynpcd.baf. Everything else goes in mynpcs.baf.

[Ardanis]

Well, I haven't chiseled anything in stone yet. When you explain these things, it all looks clear and sensible (and I defer to you with things of which I no zip, such as state weights). When others explain the same things, it also all looks clear and sensible. So, this remains an obstacle to progress, as I don't feel I can continue working till I have the matter sorted. I don't want anything I do in the mod to make things more difficult when it comes to compatibility with other mods.

Rule of thumb - if you don't understand things then do as others tell you to. Once you know better you'll figure out the best way to handle your specific stuff.

 

Which boils down to putting everything that has an event-based condition attached to it in J, and anything 100% random - in B. It's been proven as workable solution and is rather simple to follow.

[ericp07]

Well, I haven't chiseled anything in stone yet. When you explain these things, it all looks clear and sensible (and I defer to you with things of which I no zip, such as state weights). When others explain the same things, it also all looks clear and sensible. So, this remains an obstacle to progress, as I don't feel I can continue working till I have the matter sorted. I don't want anything I do in the mod to make things more difficult when it comes to compatibility with other mods.

Rule of thumb - if you don't understand things then do as others tell you to. Once you know better you'll figure out the best way to handle your specific stuff.

 

Which boils down to putting everything that has an event-based condition attached to it in J, and anything 100% random - in B. It's been proven as workable solution and is rather simple to follow.

 

Thanks a million That's what I've written in "notes to self," so I'll look again at my files and clout 'em into shape.

 

- E