Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility

[Demivrgvs]

I'm opening a new topic hoping to cath the attention of whoever could help on this matter.

 

Both SR and SCS allow several Spell Removals to "bypass invisibility" by giving them an AoE projectile, but some players reported that these spells occasionally (though rarely) don't work, missing the target without apparent reason.

 

Using SCS projectile (dw#antim) the issue almost disappears but I do reproduced it a couple of times in some circumstances. It apparently never happens if the spell is directly aimed on target, but it can still randomly happen if the spell is cast away from it, within its supposed AoE.

 

The only difference between SR and SCS projectiles is that SCS now uses a much bigger AoE (20 feet instead of the old 5!), thus I've tried to do the same and it indeed seems the make the spell always work as long as it's directly target on the opponent.

 

Long story short, granting a large AoE may solve the issue, at least partially, but I'm really unsure about it, and I hate to do things without really knowing what's happening.

 

Can anyone (e.g. Ardanis? ) test this a little more? Have anyone experienced it? With SCS and without SR? I don't want to come to conclusions all by myself as I may have done something wrong or missed something important in the process...I actually hope so.

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

P.S Side note for David, why do we need both Spell Thrust and Secret Word with AoE? Isn't the former enough considering the only reason for the AoE is to dispel SI while the target is under Improved Invisibility?

[Ardanis]

Can anyone (e.g. Ardanis? ) test this a little more?

The day before yesterday I've been doing precisely just that, fighting Raamilat the Drow in Suldanessellar and trying to dispel his protections with three Ruby Rays. Well, he still had some on, despite me reloading and increasing the AoE radius. I'll devote to it some more time tonight then.

 

why do we need both Spell Thrust and Secret Word with AoE?

SW needs AoE because it only removes a single layer of protections, like RRoR, so it's better be of some actual use to be worth memorizing. On the other hand, since within SR it's a word-type spell, with casting speed of 1, it may be fine as not piercing invisibility.

[DavidW]

P.S Side note for David, why do we need both Spell Thrust and Secret Word with AoE? Isn't the former enough considering the only reason for the AoE is to dispel SI while the target is under Improved Invisibility?

 

No, the point of the AoE is to dispel magical protections in general while the target is under Improved Invisibility, though I agree that SI is fairly key given that II blocks Breach.

 

Why have a broad principle of AoE for everything? Partly simplicity; partly, the more restrictive the set of spells are that are required to get through a wizard's defences, the more powerful those defences are. So it's a balance thing really. I'd prefer a system where in general, one just attacks a wizard's defences with sufficiently powerful antimagic, without having to do further scissors-paper-rock permutations.

[Demivrgvs]

Can anyone (e.g. Ardanis? ) test this a little more?

The day before yesterday I've been doing precisely just that, fighting Raamilat the Drow in Suldanessellar and trying to dispel his protections with three Ruby Rays. Well, he still had some on, despite me reloading and increasing the AoE radius. I'll devote to it some more time tonight then.

Thanks pal. And too bad it seems the issue is still there even with the large AoE.

 

why do we need both Spell Thrust and Secret Word with AoE?

SW needs AoE because it only removes a single layer of protections, like RRoR, so it's better be of some actual use to be worth memorizing. On the other hand, since within SR it's a word-type spell, with casting speed of 1, it may be fine as not piercing invisibility.

Yep, I'm asking that because right now Secret Word is actually more appealing than Pierce Magic imo (unless you need to lower mr). The latter is two lvls higher but dispels the very same spell protections, and doesn't bypass II. Not to mention that with SCS Secret Word is almost like a Mass Secret Word because of its large AoE.

 

P.S Side note for David, why do we need both Spell Thrust and Secret Word with AoE? Isn't the former enough considering the only reason for the AoE is to dispel SI while the target is under Improved Invisibility?

No, the point of the AoE is to dispel magical protections in general while the target is under Improved Invisibility, though I agree that SI is fairly key given that II blocks Breach.

 

Why have a broad principle of AoE for everything? Partly simplicity; partly, the more restrictive the set of spells are that are required to get through a wizard's defences, the more powerful those defences are. So it's a balance thing really. I'd prefer a system where in general, one just attacks a wizard's defences with sufficiently powerful antimagic, without having to do further scissors-paper-rock permutations.

I'm just saying that Spell Thrust is a relatively cheap spell slot (though there are many great 3rd lvl spells), and due to multiple Spell Immunity it's a must have for any SCS player. Having Secret Word "not bypass II" isn't going to affect players much, because against SI:Div you'd still be chosing ST over it (especially because it's the only spell removal that is surely going to get rid of any SI, even if higher lvl spell protections are up!), and if SI:Div is not used then you simply don't need spell removals to bypass II (you can use any anti-invisibility spell, and then cast any of them).

 

Am I wrong?

[Ardanis]

All right, here we are...

 

Projectiles sometimes do not reach the destinied spot but explode several feet before. For some reason the mouse cursor doesn't show up on screens, so I've painted the target spot black:

Same spot, just few pixels aside

In both cases the AoE used was 35 (4'), so as you can see it's possible to miss the target entirely. The only explanation I can offer, it's connected with pathfinding function and/or search map, because repeated casting at the same spot results in identical misses no matter how many times you try. The deviation can seem to reach 50-60, so it's no wonder SR's projectiles miss sometimes... In other words, try casting not at the target creature, but a bit farther instead.

 

And another issue that I've confirmed now - Secret Word sometimes doesn't explode at all, even if casted directly at the creature, not just ground nearby. It too seems to be connected with positioning. Enabling sparks (0xc) appears to fix the problem.

[Demivrgvs]

All right, here we are...

 

Projectiles sometimes do not reach the destinied spot but explode several feet before. ... The only explanation I can offer, it's connected with pathfinding function and/or search map, because repeated casting at the same spot results in identical misses no matter how many times you try. The deviation can seem to reach 50-60, so it's no wonder SR's projectiles miss sometimes... In other words, try casting not at the target creature, but a bit farther instead.

Mmm, that's why the larger SCS AoE seems to work much more often then...but am I wrong or you can also confirm that it's not a "flawless" solution?

 

And another issue that I've confirmed now - Secret Word sometimes doesn't explode at all, even if casted directly at the creature, not just ground nearby. It too seems to be connected with positioning. Enabling sparks (0xc) appears to fix the problem.

Enabling sparks without restoring a projectile travel animation? Will try.

 

Making SW once again a single target spell would avoid this SW-only problem too! Jokes aside, if using a large AoE can at least make the issue not appear 99% of times I'm in favor of it for Spell Thrust and Ruby Ray (a rather large ray! ), but I really don't lik Mass Secret Word.

[Galactygon]

In both cases the AoE used was 35 (4'), so as you can see it's possible to miss the target entirely. The only explanation I can offer, it's connected with pathfinding function and/or search map, because repeated casting at the same spot results in identical misses no matter how many times you try. The deviation can seem to reach 50-60, so it's no wonder SR's projectiles miss sometimes... In other words, try casting not at the target creature, but a bit farther instead.

 

And another issue that I've confirmed now - Secret Word sometimes doesn't explode at all, even if casted directly at the creature, not just ground nearby. It too seems to be connected with positioning. Enabling sparks (0xc) appears to fix the problem.

 

I've encountered this too. Something else that worked was slowing the speed of the projectile. The sparks thing is interesting, I'll try it.

 

This "fix" might also work: Spell summons an invisible creature right on top of the target but only after all creatures on the map are protected against Shell Spell A and are unjumpable (Opcode 184). With a delay of 0, the caster casts Shell Spell A on (him/her)self that has global effects of casting Shell Spell B embedded inside an .eff file. Shell Spell B will thus be cast directly on the invisible creature, which can have the actual effects with the said projectile.

 

-Galactygon

[Ardanis]

I now also remember that placing Skull Traps sometimes results in identical behavior, they may stop 1'-2' before the pointed location.

 

Making SW once again a single target spell would avoid this SW-only problem too! Jokes aside, if using a large AoE can at least make the issue not appear 99% of times I'm in favor of it for Spell Thrust and Ruby Ray (a rather large ray! ), but I really don't lik Mass Secret Word.

Indeed. Spellstrike is a 'damn 9th spell' so it has to purge everything. Ruby Ray is 7th, so I guess it may also affect multiple targets. And Spell Thrust, welll, whatever.

Or... we can set 16th bit in area extention (target only one) true, no? Sure, it may pick up a wrong target, but hey, they're invisible thus it's difficult to aim! And Spellstrike may actually remain a mass spell, probably someone else too.

 

This "fix" might also work: Spell summons an invisible creature right on top of the target but only after all creatures on the map are protected against Shell Spell A and are unjumpable (Opcode 184). With a delay of 0, the caster casts Shell Spell A on (him/her)self that has global effects of casting Shell Spell B embedded inside an .eff file. Shell Spell B will thus be cast directly on the invisible creature, which can have the actual effects with the said projectile.

Might work indeed. Although scripting the summon to cast on self will likely do as well, the delay there is half a second, I think.

 

Of course, the best solution is to bugger someone to code in a 'bypass invisibility' flag, unlil they give in Might add a request queue to A64...

[Demivrgvs]

I now also remember that placing Skull Traps sometimes results in identical behavior, they may stop 1'-2' before the pointed location.

Can we ever discover something cool rather than something that doesn't work as expected?

 

Making SW once again a single target spell would avoid this SW-only problem too! Jokes aside, if using a large AoE can at least make the issue not appear 99% of times I'm in favor of it for Spell Thrust and Ruby Ray (a rather large ray! ), but I really don't lik Mass Secret Word.

Indeed. Spellstrike is a 'damn 9th spell' so it has to purge everything. Ruby Ray is 7th, so I guess it may also affect multiple targets. And Spell Thrust, welll, whatever.

I think this is the way to go. As we seem to agree SW doesn't need to have AoE to be appealing, and Spell Thrust is more than enough to counter SI:Div + II (note that within SR antimagic attacks have power lvl 0). Not to mention that having SW not bypass II would also make it much more consistent with its new Power Word state, and would also restore the appeal of Pierce Magic.

 

Or... we can set 16th bit in area extention (target only one) true, no? Sure, it may pick up a wrong target, but hey, they're invisible thus it's difficult to aim!

I fear that would make them really too unreliable.

 

Something else that worked was slowing the speed of the projectile.

Mmm, interesting...as SCS projectile is indeed slightly slower too (80 instead of 100). Well, with a large AoE we don't need an uber-fast projectile (I used such a high value because at first both I and David were using a very small 5 feet radius AoE), thus I can easily slow it down.

 

This "fix" might also work: Spell summons an invisible creature right on top of the target but only after all creatures on the map are protected against Shell Spell A and are unjumpable (Opcode 184). With a delay of 0, the caster casts Shell Spell A on (him/her)self that has global effects of casting Shell Spell B embedded inside an .eff file. Shell Spell B will thus be cast directly on the invisible creature, which can have the actual effects with the said projectile.

Might work indeed. Although scripting the summon to cast on self will likely do as well, the delay there is half a second, I think.

I think the delay could actually cause as much "misses" as the current situation, unless a large AoE is used...no?

 

Of course, the best solution is to bugger someone to code in a 'bypass invisibility' flag, unlil they give in Might add a request queue to A64...

Well, if the "large AoE" thing works it may not be necessary to put more work on A64, but yes, that would obviously be the best slution.

 

P.S On a side note, did you asked him about fixing the "repeating EFF" opcode? That would really change my life.

[Galactygon]

Might work indeed. Although scripting the summon to cast on self will likely do as well, the delay there is half a second, I think.

Scripting in spells is unreliable at best. The delay factor is crucial. Which is why almost none of my spells use .bcs blocks - no matter how elaborate they are.

 

Of course, the best solution is to bugger someone to code in a 'bypass invisibility' flag, unlil they give in Might add a request queue to A64...

I agree.

 

Mmm, interesting...as SCS projectile is indeed slightly slower too (80 instead of 100). Well, with a large AoE we don't need an uber-fast projectile (I used such a high value because at first both I and David were using a very small 5 feet radius AoE), thus I can easily slow it down.

Even 50 is fast enough to cause misses. 40-ish will guarantee a hit unless you are willing to do the invisible .cre thing (now that I think about it, it's the best way).

 

-Galactygon

[Jarno Mikkola]

Can we ever discover something cool rather than something that doesn't work as expected?

Well, on the above example, the aim is actually on the top portion of the 3D image, so the effected creatures... if we assume it to be a normal sized humanoid creature... head, would be in the point the pointer points and the radius is then measured from it's feet. It's actually a cool feature on the "god mode". Uuh, and the game actually needs to put the characters in "squares" of some dimensions...

 

I always hated the magic immunity etc invulnerability things, so I hate the invisibility preventing stuff too, above most things.

[Ardanis]

Thanks for the to the CRE usage discussion, it reminded me of something far better - 148. Because, do we ever need a travelling PRO in the first place? Needs to test the thing out first, though, but if it'll work then it's done with.

 

P.S On a side note, did you asked him about fixing the "repeating EFF" opcode? That would really change my life.

Apparently not. But since Taimon appears to have left the scene, you're probably right about it.

 

Well, on the above example, the aim is actually on the top portion of the 3D image, so the effected creatures... if we assume it to be a normal sized humanoid creature... head, would be in the point the pointer points and the radius is then measured from it's feet. It's actually a cool feature on the "god mode".

If you mean that Skull's visuals don't match the placement (they're floating a couple feet above the ground), then that's not the case. I was talking exactly about it not reaching the destination point.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks for the to the CRE usage discussion, it reminded me of something far better - 148. Because, do we ever need a travelling PRO in the first place? Needs to test the thing out first, though, but if it'll work then it's done with.

I'm not sure what you have in mind, but I'll let you try it.

 

I've a ready hotfix update which makes Secret Word single target and "fixes" Spell Thrust, Ruby Ray of Reversal and Spellstrike by granting them a larger AoE (15', 15', and 20' radius respectively - should I opt for 20' and 30'?) and slowing their pro speed from 100 to 40. I'll keep it in stand by waiting to see if you have a better "fix" in store.

 

P.S I forgot we nerfed Spell Thrust making it remove a single spell protection instead of all at once.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I've a ready hotfix update which makes Secret Word single target and "fixes" Spell Thrust, Ruby Ray of Reversal and Spellstrike by granting them a larger AoE (15', 15', and 20' radius respectively - should I opt for 20' and 30'?) and slowing their pro speed from 100 to 40. I'll keep it in stand by waiting to see if you have a better "fix" in store.

Erhm, I would like the SpellStrike to be 30', while the other can be 15', or you could make the RRR's projectile to be cone like(alike the Cone of Cold). It's a 'ray', not fireball. That would of course require it's own projectile animation made from transparent cone of cold.

[Kalindor]

Erhm, I would like the SpellStrike to be 30', while the other can be 15', or you could make the RRR's projectile to be cone like(alike the Cone of Cold). It's a 'ray', not fireball. That would of course require it's own projectile animation made from transparent cone of cold.

A large radius on Spellstrike would at least make it more tempting for a level 9 spell slot. The spell's concept rather makes you think of an assault on one person's magical defenses, however, and not a generalized antimagic area effect...