Sunfire to take MR into account... ?

[ThreeQuarters]

Hello everybody !

While playing around with NI, I found (quite by accident, actually) that Sunfire can be made to take MR into account, by simply changing the "Target Type" of the abilities to "Any point within range" instead of "Caster", and keeping the rest of the spell definition. The trick is that it forces you to chose a point where you want to cast the spell, but the caster will have to move to this point anyway, so the spell is the same.

So, is there a catch to this "solution" (maybe with the AI ?), or could this work ?

[Ardanis]

It should work, AI casts it on self anyway.

 

If you would rather to preserve the self-casting behavior, but without bypassing MR, either check Spell Revisions or use this code on SPWI523.

[Galactygon]

Ardanis: There's a neat approach on making the caster immune to his/her own sunfire:

 

Place an effect that protects against SPWI523 with a duration of 0, and using targettype 9 (Self, Post Projectile) as the first effect in the effects list.

 

I've tested this; it works flawlessly, even if cast during a Time Stop. Consider this a request; it would be nice to include this in fixpack's next version. (I don't have the time right now to code this, sorry)

 

-Galactygon

[ericp07]

What is the point of modifying the spell, if it doesn't affect the caster?

 

- E

[Ardanis]

Ardanis: There's a neat approach on making the caster immune to his/her own sunfire:

 

Place an effect that protects against SPWI523 with a duration of 0, and using targettype 9 (Self, Post Projectile) as the first effect in the effects list.

Demi had already done it, I believe.

 

What is the point of modifying the spell, if it doesn't affect the caster?

In vanilla it grants 100% fire res for 3 seconds. You sometimes can use it to become immune to incomingdragon breath or whatever.

[Galactygon]

Ardanis: There's a neat approach on making the caster immune to his/her own sunfire:

 

Place an effect that protects against SPWI523 with a duration of 0, and using targettype 9 (Self, Post Projectile) as the first effect in the effects list.

Demi had already done it, I believe.

 

I feel this should be covered by fixpack rather than another mod like SR or SpellPack. We're dealing with a purely technical fix.

 

-Galactygon

[ThreeQuarters]

While I am at it, is there any mod that makes the game less cheesy ?

I know mods like fixpack and SCS2 fix some of the exploits, but I also mean make overpowered items less powerful. For example:

-Robe of Vecna could improve casting time by 2 instead of 4, and would not be available before ToB

-Limit XP cap to 2,950,000 in SoA

-Improved Alacrity: limited to 10 spells chained at most

-Sunfire would not ignore Magic Resistance

-Stacked Web should imply a bonus to save throws for the second and subsequent webs (each round, the save against the first web is at -2, and the save against subsequent ones is made at +6, for example). Same for Stinking Cloud

-Free Action must not allow haste-like abilities (it seems Spell Revision goes the other way around here, but it makes Free Action + Haste quite overpowered really)

-Chain Contingencies tricks don't allow more than one Simulacrum / Project Image

-PI and Simu can't cast more than 5 summons and more than 1 Planetar

-PI cast the wizard's own spells, and use the wizard's own objects, instead of duplicates

-for Damage over Time spells that have an AoE, the damage should only prevent casting the first (few) round(s), and should weaken over time (also, if only the AI could just think of getting outside of the cloud...)

-Melf's Minute Meteors should cancel haste and improved haste

-Prevent pause during inventory (that would avoid exploits like the potion-swap, as make the fights more "realistic", eh)

-Avoid the mind flayer and similar "stat drain to kill" cheese (or make it much less powerful, at least)

-Nature's Beauty should only blind for 3 rounds instead of permanently

-Fix anything that this page describes

Etc...

[Demivrgvs]

Ardanis: There's a neat approach on making the caster immune to his/her own sunfire:

 

Place an effect that protects against SPWI523 with a duration of 0, and using targettype 9 (Self, Post Projectile) as the first effect in the effects list.

Demi had already done it, I believe.

 

I feel this should be covered by fixpack rather than another mod like SR or SpellPack. We're dealing with a purely technical fix.

Yep I did it, though it's part of a much more radical tweak (e.g. I even added a custom projectile to remove the silly "I'm firing a fireball on my head" animation). Fixing the '3 seconds immunity' can probably fit Fixpack, whereas the original topic's bug (vanilla's Sunfire was ignore magic resistance even if its parameters were set to not ignore it) might be better left out of it. It's indeed a bug, but one that many "standard" players (not to mention power players) liked, thus I fear it may be unwelcome in a mod which is pretty much mandatory in any BG install.

[ericp07]

Ardanis: There's a neat approach on making the caster immune to his/her own sunfire:

 

Place an effect that protects against SPWI523 with a duration of 0, and using targettype 9 (Self, Post Projectile) as the first effect in the effects list.

Demi had already done it, I believe.

 

What is the point of modifying the spell, if it doesn't affect the caster?

In vanilla it grants 100% fire res for 3 seconds. You sometimes can use it to become immune to incomingdragon breath or whatever.

 

I see the potential for abuse there, then When in doubt, I'd always go with PnP rules, though.

 

- E

[phordicus]

-for Damage over Time spells that have an AoE, the damage should only prevent casting the first (few) round(s), and should weaken over time (also, if only the AI could just think of getting outside of the cloud...)

doesn't scs have as-good-as-it-can-get SeeCloud/GetOutOfCloud scripting?

[Demivrgvs]

While I am at it, is there any mod that makes the game less cheesy ? I know mods like fixpack and SCS2 fix some of the exploits, but I also mean make overpowered items less powerful.

Revisions mods?

 

-Robe of Vecna could improve casting time by 2 instead of 4, and would not be available before ToB

IR does this.

 

-Limit XP cap to 2,950,000 in SoA

There are a bunch of mods enforcing xp caps, like Zyraen's one at Pocket Plane.

 

-Improved Alacrity: limited to 10 spells chained at most

I'd love this, but it's not doable without some hack (aka A64 genius work).

 

-Sunfire would not ignore Magic Resistance

SR does this, and also prevents the abuse of the 3 sec immunity to fire.

 

-Stacked Web should imply a bonus to save throws for the second and subsequent webs (each round, the save against the first web is at -2, and the save against subsequent ones is made at +6, for example). Same for Stinking Cloud

I suggested to make multiple web/clouds not stack, but the idea was discarded. Your suggestion is probably near impossible.

 

-Free Action must not allow haste-like abilities (it seems Spell Revision goes the other way around here, but it makes Free Action + Haste quite overpowered really)

How can it be "free action" if it hinders the character by limiting the use of haste? Anyway, Improved Haste is indeed unbalanced, and will be tweaked for V4, making it less OP on fighters and more useful on other characters (aka, +2 apr instead of 2x apr), but I don't think Free Action+Haste is anything but a a legal and balanced combo.

 

-Chain Contingencies tricks don't allow more than one Simulacrum / Project Image

-PI and Simu can't cast more than 5 summons and more than 1 Planetar

-PI cast the wizard's own spells, and use the wizard's own objects, instead of duplicates

SR blocks or seriously limits almost all exploits involving illusionary clones (no multiple clones, no misleaded clone singing bard's songs, no PI using wizard's scrolls/items, no Simmy restored to 100% xp via restoration, and so on), but some of them are hardcoded (e.g. PI using wizard's own spell is beyond my possibilities).

 

Regarding PI's infinite summons exploit I was thinking to do so something about it for SR V4 (PI clone will probably undergo a HUGE revision), but at the same time V4 may go with a "no summoning cap" component (both are long stories).

 

-for Damage over Time spells that have an AoE, the damage should only prevent casting the first (few) round(s), and should weaken over time (also, if only the AI could just think of getting outside of the cloud...)

doesn't scs have as-good-as-it-can-get SeeCloud/GetOutOfCloud scripting?

Yes it does. Furthermore SCS loves using ProEnergy serie of spells, and if SR is installed AoE damaging spells won't disrupt their spellcasting at all.

 

-Melf's Minute Meteors should cancel haste and improved haste

 

-Avoid the mind flayer and similar "stat drain to kill" cheese (or make it much less powerful, at least)

I'd love to do it. I wanted to tweak Shapechange's Mind Flayer form to make INT drain allow a save and not work on certain creatures (e.g. golems), but I didn't worked on it in the end because it would have made them too different from in-game illithids. I'll probably do something about it sooner or later.

 

-Nature's Beauty should only blind for 3 rounds instead of permanently

Well, SR completely changed the spell (turning it into a sort of Mass Charm), which may not appeal everyone, but yes, vanilla's perma-blindness was broken. Actually, it was broken only because the AI doesn't seem to handle blindeness well, and vanilla game doesn't give the AI (not even to an enhanced AI like SCS) much tools to cope with it (long story)

 

-Fix anything that this page describes

Etc...

I don't have the time to read such a huge wall of text, but if there's anything you think that should/could be handled by any of my mods go ahead and suggest me to work on it.

[ThreeQuarters]

While I am at it, is there any mod that makes the game less cheesy ? I know mods like fixpack and SCS2 fix some of the exploits, but I also mean make overpowered items less powerful.

Revisions mods?

Oops, sorry...

However, the readme files for IR and SR don't seem to mention most of the suggestions I posted here, though.

 

-Improved Alacrity: limited to 10 spells chained at most

I'd love this, but it's not doable without some hack (aka A64 genius work).

A shame, IA being probably one of the most overpowered spells in the game. At least the Robe of Vecna will be nerfed.

 

-Stacked Web should imply a bonus to save throws for the second and subsequent webs (each round, the save against the first web is at -2, and the save against subsequent ones is made at +6, for example). Same for Stinking Cloud

I suggested to make multiple web/clouds not stack, but the idea was discarded. Your suggestion is probably near impossible.

Is it possible to create a special status "Web ST bonus +8", and apply it for one round to anyone in the AoE of web, so that subsequent webs in the same round get a bonus ?

 

-Free Action must not allow haste-like abilities (it seems Spell Revision goes the other way around here, but it makes Free Action + Haste quite overpowered really)

How can it be "free action" if it hinders the character by limiting the use of haste? Anyway, Improved Haste is indeed unbalanced, and will be tweaked for V4, making it less OP on fighters and more useful on other characters (aka, +2 apr instead of 2x apr), but I don't think Free Action+Haste is anything but a a legal and balanced combo.

Well, Free Action and (Improved) Haste are two very powerful spells, and I liked the idea of having to choose between the two, but if IH is rebalanced, it's ok.

 

-Melf's Minute Meteors should cancel haste and improved haste

I meant that MMM + Improved Haste = 10 attacks per round (in vanilla, at least, dunno if mods correct this).

 

-Fix anything that this page describes

Etc...

I don't have the time to read such a huge wall of text, but if there's anything you think that should/could be handled by any of my mods go ahead and suggest me to work on it.

Well, this is mostly a summary of the most awful cheesy tactics in the game. Fixpack and other mods probably nerf most of those, though.

 

Thanks for the info, anyway. I think I've got a bunch of mods to try out.

[polytope]

Mods improve many of these issues, but I would like to add my thoughts.

 

While I am at it, is there any mod that makes the game less cheesy ?

 

-Stacked Web should imply a bonus to save throws for the second and subsequent webs (each round, the save against the first web is at -2, and the save against subsequent ones is made at +6, for example). Same for Stinking Cloud

 

I feel that web should act as an improved entangle, rather than a "mass hold person with a save required every round" which is what it actually does, but I suspect that the web effect is hardcoded, at least I've seen creatures who are immune to "hold creature: 109" getting stuck in webs.

 

Anyway, -2 penalty to save is really too strong for a second level spell; make it a save vs breath at +2 (less overpowering against fighters). "Slow" has a similar issue, the save at -4 combined with the AC and THAC0 penalties are a bit much.

 

-PI and Simu can't cast more than 5 summons and more than 1 Planetar

 

This is doable by altering the scripts of planetars (and elemental princes) to unsummon if there is more than one present, similar to what aVENGER did for the bard's "Spirit Warrior" in Rogue Rebalancing.

 

-Avoid the mind flayer and similar "stat drain to kill" cheese (or make it much less powerful, at least)

 

I tried making "tweaked" mind flayers that act more like PnP. Rather than losing intelligence when a mind flayer nibbles someone's brain (which grows back in a few rounds, yeah right) the mind flayers have a chance to hold their target with every hit; both mind flayer and victim are immobilized for one round at the end of which the mind flayer eats their brain, resulting in instant death, but killing the mind flayer before this time frees the victim. The mind flayer shapeshift is less powerful with this option. My main worry is compatability with any mod that changes mind flayer scripts.

[Demivrgvs]

I feel that web should act as an improved entangle, rather than a "mass hold person with a save required every round" which is what it actually does, but I suspect that the web effect is hardcoded, at least I've seen creatures who are immune to "hold creature: 109" getting stuck in webs.

Actually it's doable. I suggested it some time ago, and I was thinking to try it for SR V4, but the main problem is that such change may cause compatibility issues with mod added creatures and items. Let's say it's not an easy tweak.

 

Anyway, -2 penalty to save is really too strong for a second level spell; make it a save vs breath at +2 (less overpowering against fighters). "Slow" has a similar issue, the save at -4 combined with the AC and THAC0 penalties are a bit much.

If Web retains a "mass hold" effect then -2 penalty is slightly OP yes (though the main balance problem is the stacking issue imo), but if it works as an Improved Entangle it surely cannot give targets a +2 bonus to save because that would turn the spell from incredibly powerful to almost useless.

 

I do agree on Slow, though I may have nerfed it too much within SR (I'm not sure).

 

-PI and Simu can't cast more than 5 summons and more than 1 Planetar

This is doable by altering the scripts of planetars (and elemental princes) to unsummon if there is more than one present, similar to what aVENGER did for the bard's "Spirit Warrior" in Rogue Rebalancing.

That's more or less what I had in mind for SR V4.

[polytope]

I feel that web should act as an improved entangle, rather than a "mass hold person with a save required every round" which is what it actually does, but I suspect that the web effect is hardcoded, at least I've seen creatures who are immune to "hold creature: 109" getting stuck in webs.

Actually it's doable. I suggested it some time ago, and I was thinking to try it for SR V4, but the main problem is that such change may cause compatibility issues with mod added creatures and items. Let's say it's not an easy tweak.

Web effect (157), seems to automatically hold the character - I guess if you wanted to make it an entangle type spell a new animation must be added.

 

Anyway, -2 penalty to save is really too strong for a second level spell; make it a save vs breath at +2 (less overpowering against fighters). "Slow" has a similar issue, the save at -4 combined with the AC and THAC0 penalties are a bit much.

If Web retains a "mass hold" effect then -2 penalty is slightly OP yes (though the main balance problem is the stacking issue imo), but if it works as an Improved Entangle it surely cannot give targets a +2 bonus to save because that would turn the spell from incredibly powerful to almost useless.

Sure, I was proposing either a less harsh save or a completely different effect.

 

Save vs breath seems balanced if web actually paralyzes the target: Vanilla Web has a 65% chance per round to incapacitate a 9th level fighter and 40% chance to work on an epic level fighter, certainly more powerful than horror or stinking cloud. With this change it'd be more like 35%, 10%.