Level up trough dialogue

[Cremo]

Hi all

 

I would like to have some feedback on a mod-idea that passed in my mind and whose practicability i was trying to guess.

 

Would it be possible to erase most of the traditional level up class effects (i think that the only one which couldn't be erased is the CON hp bonus per level which is hardcoded to my knowing) and, instead, add, with level up of each class, an innate ability than, when used, would start up a dialogue in which the charachter has to choose the new abilities he wants to obtain?

 

e.g. of a basic dialogue:

 

"You suddenly realise that your abilities have improved. First ..."

 

1. melee training 1 (-x Thac0 bonus)

2. ranged training 1 (-x Thac0 bonus)

3. move silently training 1 (+xx%)

4. divine spell focus 1 (extra lvl x divine slot)

5. arcane spell focus 1 (extra lvl x arcane slot)

 

 

if you choose, for example, 1:

 

".. the intensive training of melee weapons finally increased your abilities with such weapons (-x thac0 bonus), and, secondly..."

 

1. undo

2. ranged training 1 (-x Thac0 bonus)

3. move silently training 1 (+xx%)

4. divine spell focus 1 (extra lvl x divine slot)

5. arcane spell focus 1 (extra lvl x arcane slot)

 

if you choose, for example, 3:

".. your costant effort to walk like a cat improved your ability to move unnoticed (+xx% move silently), and, thirdly...

 

1. undo

2. ranged training 1 (-x Thac0 bonus)

3. divine spell focus 1(extra lvl x divine slot)

4. arcane spell focus 1(extra lvl x arcane slot)

 

 

 

I think that this should totally be possible since I've seen that dialgoues can give you abilities (seen in the "bard rogueswitch mod" where with dialogue the "summoned genie" raised the bard thieving skills when "switching" to rogue).

 

Yet I was asking myself if, at the following level, the new dialogue could recognize the options you selected in the dialogues before, in order not to show them and, instead, show new ones previously not available.

 

e.g.

 

"You suddenly realise that your abilities have improved. First ..."

 

1. melee training 2 (-x Thac0 bonus)

2. ranged training 1(-x Thac0 bonus)

3. move silently training 2(+xx%)

4. divine spell focus 1(extra lvl x divine slot)

5. arcane spell focus 1(extra lvl x arcane slot)

 

 

 

I think this "should" be possible.. since, for example, wish spells remembered the "one time wishes" you expressed and didn't repropose them to you.

 

 

 

So, am i right? can a system of leveling up with dialogue like the one I've described work?

 

Imho, if'its possible, it would be a nice way to reduce the rigidity of classes in baldur's gate.

 

 

p.s. Would there be limits to the number of options in the dialogues? or, virtually, i could even have like 50 different ones displayed at a single time for every different class?

[lynx]

Should be possible, but don't forget to disable the normal level progression (zero out all xp?).

[ericp07]

This looks like something that could be handled by coding up custom kits, and they could be called something like "[class name] Variant" (or something more interesting). I'd see if the desired results could be effected in this way, unless someone has a better idea (which wouldn't surprise me, heh).

[Jarno Mikkola]

Well, you fail at one point, see you either have to make a total convertion to that system or it's gets creamed at one point or another by it's comblexity.

See it's easy to code the first step to the conversation that has 50 replies, but coding those 50 replies is a different matter as you need to flag them and make them all do different stuff and still end up in the one spot you like them to.

 

And technically the Switch Bard was easier to do than any other of those classes as it has the same level base that Bards and Thieves share, Both being rogues, so the XP is exact same.

[Cremo]

Thanks for the replyes!

 

Actually, the "compexity" of this conversion doesn't worry me, since what I have in mind is exactly a complete overhaul of the whole rule system that BG uses, and, consequently, of creatures and items to cope with these new rules.

 

 

What matters to me is simply to check if it's possible:

1. to alter character statistics, skills, known spells and powers trough dialogue

2. to make this dialogue able to check what "options" the character involved has choosen in past level up dialogues in order to not repropose them and, instead, give new options previously unavailable (e.g. char 1 chooses "improve thac0" at level 1.. at level 2, launching the "level up dialogue", the game checks that he has taken the "improve thac0" feat and offers him, as an option, an "additional 1/2 attack" previously unavailable)

 

What I first had in mind was to make tabula rasa of all the benefits gained by the vanilla game with level up (done by removing all abilities given with clab****.2da tables, putting thac0 tables at 20 for all levels and so on) and

to put, as the only "benefit" for the level up a new "level up dialogue" innate ability for the char that would enable the char to improve his abilities with a variety of choices instead that simply receiving benefits predetermined by a class/kit.

 

Yet now i am thinking that - if i understand what Lynx had in mind - it would be possible to do something similar by just avoiding for level up to actually happen "formally" (putting "0" to the exp required for all the levels) and simply making something like a permanent innate "level up dialogue" wich simply checks:

- the xp you have, to check if you are elegible to learn some new abilities (considering the abilities already learnt vs the number you can know at a certain amount of xp.. i think it would also be possible to give the various abilities different "xp values", meaning that a char could know a different number of abilities based on the "xp cost" of each, with the sum of them, however, never exceeding the current xp amount )

- the abilities you learnt (removing them from the list of possibilities that can be taken and considering them in order to propose abilities for which the firsts were "prerequisites")

 

Char would formally remain lvl 1, but they will, in truth raise their power anyway.

 

This could probably enable me to make a roughly playable version of the mod more easily (since it wouldn't screw up all the tables over witch monsters and npcs are also built).. but i think that, in the end, a version which used the old level up system could still be possible with only something like Constitution bonus to HP being hardcoded.

[ericp07]

Kinda looks like you want more 3rd edition rules, if not to scrap 2nd edition altogether (which, as I understand it, is not possible due to hardcoded elements in BG2). If it could be done successfully--implementing the closest thing to 3.5e rules in BG2--I'd totally go for it!

[Cremo]

To tell the truth, albeith i think 3rd edition was (rule-wise) better than ad&d, i would like to twist the system a lot more.. actually I like very much mount & blade (even if it's an action rpg) due to the realism it tries to achieve whilst I still hate how d&d in general handles things like hit points (with lvl 1 chars having 10 and lvl 20 more 200+), thac0 which skyrockets and renders AC useless (which, BTW, is imho a broken up system that doesn't simulate well combat like the introduction of damage reduction would).

 

Anyway i guess that if the mechanics i described were realizable BG could pretty much be ported to something similar to 3e (and of course there are a lot of stuff from 3e that i like very much.. expecially the feat system and, to some extent, how multiclassing works).

[Aion]

If you dislike D&D's rules so much, why play it? It's a huge task to do a complete rule overhaul for BG2, nevermind the other D&D games (2nd and 3rd edition rules), especially if just for yourself.

Personally I wouldn't do it. But if it's worth it to you, go ahead.

[Cremo]

I didn't say I dislike d&d rules, i said that I don't like how those rules handle certain aspects (like Thac0/AC and hitpoints). Also i think that there's much more to infinity games (which I love) than the Ad&d rules they use.. there's a setting and a story which I adore, an isometric 2d graphic that defends itself very well against those new RPGS that were built to play with a joypad in mind more than a mouse/and keyboard.. and a lot of mechanics that in my own opinion makes them 200 times better than new games like Dragon Age, Skyrim and so on.

 

I just think that, imho, the infinity engine has some mechanics whose potential wasn't fully exploited: it wouldn't have required a new, different game.. just some different approach at how some things are handled.. that's why i love BG mods.

 

Btw I don't think that a mod like the one I have in mind would be something interesting just for me.. just look at mods like "full plate and packing steel", it's not like those using the mod don't like BG.. it's just that they think the AC system is broken in the way it is.

 

Peace & love

 

 

P.s. acutally I would like to start my mod focusing on BG1+ToTSC, since it's my favourite one (love the freedom to explore a lot of "unneeded" locations, as well as the less "epic" setting).

[ericp07]

The AC component to the game rules is funky, as it does what's forbidden in PnP rules, which is to allow values beyond -10 (or -12 for dragons only). Also, THAC0 is funky in that a character is never supposed to have a value less than 2 (as in "hits on a 2 or better on d20"). PnP didn't allow lower values than that.

 

The idea of this mod concept reminds me of a huge amount of work I did in the past, converting game modules and other material from AD&D 2nd Edition to other systems I preferred (TFT and GURPS). It's a worthwhile effort for the results, when they work the way we want them to

[Cremo]

Didn't know about this p&p limitation since, sadly, I never bought ad&d books (starting to play seriously in p&p only with d&d 3.0 which, "graphic" and lore wise is imho so much inferior!), yet I think it was a wise rule since - imho - BG2 thac0/ac values skyrocketing lead to such a difference between low and high levels - in terms of pure math - that it feels like you characters aren" tolkienesque heroes" (powerfull but still "human") but rather some superheroes.

 

I know that we are talking about wizards hurling fire from their fingers and using things like "time stop" and such.. yet I think there's quite a difference between a gandalf like figure that can do this and still fear the arrow of an orc he didn't notice (with his body always being that of a normal human) and chars which could fight naked against an army of "low level chars", over which, in truth, they are not superior due to abilities the first don't possess

(e.g. seeing in the dark to ambush them, having healing potions which can help them to stand against more blows , having spells that allow them to resist the gaze of a medusa and fear) but due to sheer "math" of their "statistics".

[ericp07]

Yeah, D&D rules lend themselves to characters becoming extremely powerful, and it is perhaps unfortunate that the game is geared so that the more powerful foes require more potent magical items on the heroes' part to defeat. The 3.x edition d20 rules were a revolution in the game, and appealed to my feeling that the previous rules weren't streamlined and consistent enough. The book Iron Heroes presents an optional set of rules for characters to pursue levels of expanded mastery in weapons and combat, so that they can still gain the advantages they need without always having to rely on magical gear. There are plenty of elements from 3.x rules that might work, in some fashion, in BG2. Only one way to find out, right?

 

Happy modding and best wishes,

Eric