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Fence stealing & other exploits


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Has there ever been any thought given to blocking the player's ability to steal from fences (if not every store even though I recognize that the ability to steal from them is an intended part of vanilla's gameplay) in SCSII to prevent the well known infinite gold exploit? I think this would be a nice option to have, such an easily available method of infinite gold shouldn't be available to the player in a tactical mod imo. Having the option to steal from stores at all is such a terrible chore in the first place. Everytime I enter WP from the tutorial dungeon, my first thought is "okay time to spend 20-30 minutes stealing every scroll I can get my hands on from the two scroll sellers and repeat with bernard in the copper coronet" (which creates a nightmare in inventory management individually clicking on every scroll to move it to a scroll case) and I would rather this just not be an option at all (there is literally no reason not to do this, afaik the player can hardly afford to buy all the high level scrolls from these shops in addition to paying Gaelan, buying everything needed from bonus merchants / ribald / trademeet / etc. without exploits so stealing is practically required). It also gives the player an easily available source of near infinite xp, even more so if they are willing to abuse the learn spell - erase spell - learn spell again exploit. Personally I would be in favor of a change that makes erasing a spell from your book impossible so players had to consider which spells to add to their book more carefully (this also makes the INT stat slightly more meaningful) as there is rarely a good reason to learn 15+ spells per level besides cleverly taking advantage of the additional xp that comes with learning fluff spells you never intend to memorize. I realize people might say, okay you dont like those things so dont exploit them or use other mods that block these features. However, the same can be said for other such changes in SCSII like "clones cant use quick slot items" which is an exploit players can merely avoid taking advantage of and blocking it is also available as a component of other mods.

 

I would prefer if SCSII didnt need to come with instructions like "combine this mod with Rogue Rebalancing and Atweaks unless you want infinite gold and huge amounts of xp to be available to you within the first 5 minutes of the game." I realize that infinite gold / etc. is easily obtainable through various nefarious outlets but so is CTRL-Ying your way to victory, my concern is more with limiting or eliminating obvious exploits within the rules of the game itself, especially ones that create a much less challenging or rewarding overall experience. Nerfing or eliminating scroll xp entirely is an option to consider, but overall I think that might be too severe a penalty to dual classes as they often rely on (exploiting) scroll xp to quickly regain levels post dual. I'm aware all of this might be better off left to a tweakpack or something, but an option to disallow a few easy in game cheats seems at home to me in any tactical mod. And SCSII already goes well beyond AI upgrades and tactical challenges since with some of the rule changes and tweaks to items and spells it has more of a big picture feel to me.

 

Ok and I have a question. Who enables the options to make Gaelan Bayle ask for 100k+ gold and for a magic license to require 50k+ gold? How do you get this much gold in chapter 2 without exploiting and if you are exploiting for infinite gold, what is the difference how much gold he asks for? Just seeing this as an option makes me realize there must be alot about this game I never learned because I never have anywhere close to that amount (after spending all my gold in the previously mentioned areas) at any point in the game, let alone chapter 2. The vanilla game does practically throw money at your feet (whats that bernard, you have an infinite number of prismatic spray scrolls I can steal? thats nice) but taking advantage of those situations certainly does not lend towards a fun or challenging experience.

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Has there ever been any thought given to blocking the player's ability to steal from fences (if not every store even though I recognize that the ability to steal from them is an intended part of vanilla's gameplay) in SCSII to prevent the well known infinite gold exploit? I think this would be a nice option to have, such an easily available method of infinite gold shouldn't be available to the player in a tactical mod imo. Having the option to steal from stores at all is such a terrible chore in the first place.

To quote Wesley Weimer, I am not the police. If that's a terrible chore, don't do it. SCS has a deliberate don't-block-exploits policy.

 

Everytime I enter WP from the tutorial dungeon, my first thought is "okay time to spend 20-30 minutes stealing every scroll I can get my hands on from the two scroll sellers and repeat with bernard in the copper coronet" (which creates a nightmare in inventory management individually clicking on every scroll to move it to a scroll case) and I would rather this just not be an option at all (there is literally no reason not to do this, afaik the player can hardly afford to buy all the high level scrolls from these shops in addition to paying Gaelan, buying everything needed from bonus merchants / ribald / trademeet / etc. without exploits so stealing is practically required).

I don't think I've ever pickpocketed a store in the entire time I've been playing this game, so it's certainly not required. As for what reasons there are not to do this, how about (a) it's immersion-breakingly unrealistic; (b) it's boring? (Still, if you want to do it, go ahead.)

 

I realize people might say, okay you dont like those things so dont exploit them or use other mods that block these features. However, the same can be said for other such changes in SCSII like "clones cant use quick slot items" which is an exploit players can merely avoid taking advantage of and blocking it is also available as a component of other mods.

I block that not because it's an exploit, but precisely because it's not obviously an exploit - and because it's distracting to have options actually present in the HUD that you just have a don't-click-here policy towards. If you look through SCS's readme you'll see precious few things are blocked just because they're exploitable.

 

I would prefer if SCSII didnt need to come with instructions like "combine this mod with Rogue Rebalancing and Atweaks unless you want infinite gold and huge amounts of xp to be available to you within the first 5 minutes of the game." I also realize that infinite gold / etc. will always be available to players who are willing to cheat and exploit but I dont think most players of SCSII fall into that category and in this case the exploit is so obvious it warrants an optional fix imo. Nerfing or eliminating scroll xp entirely is an option to consider, but overall I think that might be too severe a penalty to dual classes as they often rely on (exploiting) scroll xp to quickly regain levels post dual.

I honestly don't see the moral difference between infinite-gold exploits and just cheating in lots of gold. And by that, I don't mean that infinite-gold exploits are immoral but that cheating in gold is perfectly okay. (And indeed, if you're planning to use an infinite-gold exploit, I recommend just cheating in the gold instead. It has the same effect and lets you spend more of your in-game time fighting Firkraag and flirting with Viconia.

 

Ok and I have a question. Who enables the options to make Gaelan Bayle ask for 100k+ gold and for a magic license to require 50k+ gold? How do you get this much gold in chapter 2 without exploiting and if you are exploiting for infinite gold, what is the difference how much gold he asks for? Just seeing this as an option makes me realize there must be alot about this game I never learned because I never have anywhere close to that amount (after spending all my gold in the previously mentioned areas) at any point in the game, let alone chapter 2. The vanilla game does practically throw money at your feet (whats that bernard, you have an infinite number of prismatic spray scrolls I can steal? thats nice) but taking advantage of those situations certainly does not lend itself towards a fun or challenging experience.

Chapter 2 of BG2 has one major quest for each character class (so eight in all) along with another major quest, the slavers. Each one produces, at a rough estimate, 15,000-20,000gp in gold and disposable magic items. That's before you count all the dozens of side quests, which tend to yield rewards in the single-digit thousands. In total that's close to 200,000gp. (And remember that Gaelan's final price is only 75% of his original.)

 

I actually wrote the Gaelan Bayle component for role-playing reasons more than anything. My gaming preference is to clear all the chapter-2 quests before going to Spellhold, but once you've done a couple of them you've comfortably got enough gold to give Gaelan. At that point it's hard to justify why you're killing time and not going straight out to save Imoen. (Players who actually prefer going to Spellhold early and then cleaning up other quests in chapter 6 - or who just don't want to be that completionist - shouldn't install it.) In my last playthrough I had Gaelan ask for 100,000gp and had no trouble at all meeting it even while having a reasonable amount of spare cash for item purchases. (I haven't done a full BG2 playthrough since coding the Cowled Wizard component - it was a request for someone else.)

 

Incidentally, there probably isn't enough gold to pay Gaelan 100,000gp and buy all the cool items in all the shops. But life is choice.

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I guess I just dont have the willpower to ignore those high level scrolls and I can never really afford to buy them either (without making tough decisions as you indicated). Saying that stealing them is required was an exaggeration, I admit =). I still kinda think the designers intended you to do this, why else is it made so obvious you arent supposed to steal from Ribald (his watchful guard and true sight ability) when everyone else is basically made fair game (apart from RP concerns). And yes yes, just because they might have intended players to do it doesnt mean I have to. Anyway, fair enough, SCS doesnt fix exploits is good enough for me, just thought I'd ask.

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The sums may sound overwhelming in the beginning, but there's plenty of coin around. I'm just about to finish a playthrough (gathering courage for the final fights) where we had Gaelan at 80k and licence at 20k. I'm playing for the first time, blindly, not very well and very far from playing optimally, making good amount of mistakes (money wise and other wise) with minimal reload policy and without stealing from shops. No grinding, skipping some of the content (not on purpouse, but I'm sure I missed some), watcher's keep left for ToB, not doing all of the companion quests and with just the default stronghold & no additional content mods. We had just about enough spare coin to pay Gaelan at the end of Act 2, without having to sell anything we were using. Couldn't buy every single nice thing but almost, and that's what we were aiming for (bought the rest in Act 6). In the very end only few odd scrolls were left because of lack of money, and I liked that. If wild mage PC didn't make couple of moneypiles go *puff* (after that savings were kept as gems/items) and with little bit of metaknowledge about items and such could've raised quite a bit more coin (especially knowing the couple of vendors that pay much better than anyone else in time would've saved a lot). Though this was with a relatively good reputation (~10-14 ..no set backs but that's what we got with 1/3 rep gain option).

 

Not to say that it's the way to play, just confirming that there's enough coin to buy everything (without making mistakes like me) with "medium" options of the components. I guess I want to defend them a bit too, as I found especially the licence cost raise to be very amusing and fun addition.

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I didnt mean to insinuate that its a bad thing to have those options to increase gold prices, more options are usually good, and in fact, I wouldnt mind a few more XD. Nor is it "wrong" to create infinite gold, I just dont want to do that to preserve the sense of advancement gotten by gradually acquiring it and it annoys me that infi gold is so easily available in game without even considering the console. I guess part of my issue is that the bonus merchants require a king's ransom to get a few of their items (DoE 30k+ gold, Vecna 20k+ gold, etc.) and I wouldnt seriously consider skipping those. In my last complete run I only enabled options to remove the ones I consider to be truly cheesy (shield of balduran, cloak of mirroring) + nerfs to Staff of the Magi, Carsomyr, and a few spells. I generally restrict myself from using HLAs or lvl9 spells in SoA (by merely leaving the 3 mil xp cap alone) so I dont think Robe of Vecna is THAT bad (without improved alacrity) though I agree it shouldnt be so easily available. Perhaps I will move those items to ToB next time and that will alleviate some of my gold problems. I wonder if in general the encounters towards the end of SoA are balanced with the 3 mil xp cap in mind or if it is assumed the player will have some HLAs. I've seen some claim certain encounters were easy (like how Irenicus gets one shotted by Planetars) yet I found the final battle to be quite tough for my party and required enough reloads to leave me unsatisfied with how my preparation / party composition ended up being...and I'm inclined to try again from the start.

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Perhaps I will move those items to ToB next time and that will alleviate some of my gold problems.

 

I did use all the "move items" components, but even so, I managed to buy all kinds of junk that I really didn't need (and doubt I will). Especially in the Drow City because I didn't realize how many nice spell scrolls would come available in Act 6 and I got scared the Underdark might close later (which in the case of the city it did). All kinds of vanity items (Ras, Rod of Smiting (Aerie being only cleric), Earth elemental staff, Harbringer.. just generally toys). Also I realized how much better Ribald special stock pays only in the very end (just didn't figure to check it), although I did utilize some other good ones like the deep gnomes (not as good as specials stock but still more than most vendors). Even with these mistakes and more I raised enough coin (with no exploits) to get all the nice items (and I'd be very surprised if I missed a vendor) including bonus merchants. Having Vecna in the shops would've meant having just a few less of these useless toys really :)

 

I wonder if in general the encounters towards the end of SoA are balanced with the 3 mil xp cap in mind or if it is assumed the player will have some HLAs. I've seen some claim certain encounters were easy (like how Irenicus gets one shotted by Planetars) yet I found the final battle to be quite tough for my party and required enough reloads to leave me unsatisfied with how my preparation / party composition ended up being...and I'm inclined to try again from the start.

 

There really is ridiculous amount of XP in the game, I agree. Without grind or exploits, denying completely out of character quests, dodging quite a few fights via stealth / dialogue, not doing all but party related companion quests and without watcher's keep, I'm sitting at somewhere around 3,65mil xp in Hell. That's for the bhaalspawn who has a little bit more than rest but not much, and whole game was played with a full party. I have some completionist blood for sure, but it was hardly optimally played and things were missed too. I also decided to froze everyone to the original cap, as it just played better that way. Some of the HLA's seemed too crazy for the content. Not sure how right I am about that, but I've been reasonably satisfied with the challenge level so far.

 

I've given the finale a few go's now (Tactics & SCS Remix with 2 rounds) and I just might have to level up the team for this one. I've found hard counters for the enemies in the first round and I can clear it reasonably fast, but I'm really worried I just don't have the resources for the second encounter. I definitely could play the first one more optimally and not waste some of the heavy hitting stuff there, but this fight does seem to be notch above anything I've faced in the game. I don't have all options maxed in terms of difficulty but I do grant the tougher SoA encounters HLA's etc.. Kangaxx took a few attempts mainly because I had some trouble understanding what he was doing at the time, but other's have been manageable with first go If I didn't do something extremely stupid (I think I got a little bit lucky with The Rune though). This with a non powergaming party (characters with strenghts and weaknesses, no fighter/mages).

 

So up to this point, I'd say there has been no need for ToB levels, and I'm completely sure that the final fight is manageable with SoA xp cap too. I just wonder if I can pull it off. On the other hand, if I do chicken and level up for the finale, it would leave something to look for in another playthrough ("One day I'll be back!" :D).

 

That reminds me, I wouldn't mind seeing an XP limiter component in SCS. I know there are some rather old ones around, and if someone knows a good reliable mod they've used for that, I wouldn't mind the tip.

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I agree, Irenicus in Hell is on another level than practically anything else in SCSII, with the exception of maybe trying to conquer the vastly upgraded defenses of Ust Natha (which I couldnt do and I only barely managed to fight my way to the exit after a few tries). Indeed my problem was that in phase 2 (after a few reloads getting through phase 1) I was completely spent. My buffs were all dispelled by "shatter magic" (which seems to ignore SI:A) in phase 1 and I definitely made some unwise spell usage choices in retrospect (like buffing my party prior to the fight with pro magic energy out of habit when I was probably actually in no threat of any magical damage leaving my sorcerer no ability to cast pfmw or improved haste). I was able to quickly eliminate the glabrezus with a scroll of time stop + melee, but the Balors were giving me alot of trouble....very high magic / elemental resistance and undispellable (i think?) fire shield which I guess makes them immune to melee. My guess is you're supposed to use ranged weapons on these guys but I had never really needed to use any prior to this so I had more or less sold off or not bothered to make the good ones (like gesen). So trying to deal with these things while having Irenicus spam time stop at me was quite an ordeal.

 

I dont know where you could get an xp limiter as, having lost my original CDs, I'm playing BG2 complete from gog.com and (fortunately?) the original SoA xp cap of 2.95m is in effect in this version.

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I ran like a coward from Ust Natha. Buffed heavily for the Demon as I thought there was no way the game wouldn't force me to fight him, so I had protections, speeds and invisibilities etc. ready to go for quick exit. I was afraid the exit of the city would be blocked by all the spawns but somehow the glorious pathfinding found it's way around. I didn't really think about fighting them at the time. I did check the component description later, and it does seem like a true endurance test.

 

I'm thinking the key (for me) in the final fights is to leave the melee Wrath around on purpouse (dance around him with one character) - as he can't seem to do anything that way - while clearing the rest quickly. That would allow rebuffing (and setting up triggers/contingencies when needed) the party safely for the second encounter. I was definitely not prepared for the second round last time. The thing with rebuffing is that available resources are very limited with SoA cap and no access to the greater Wish (I have never used Wish but I've read it allows proper rests). Jon's shatter is problematic but he seemed to go down quickly once you peel him once (I just let the pathfinding find him when he teleports away to prevent him from rebuffing too much).

 

I don't really know the facts, but if I remember correctly the demons are quite highly magic resistant and immune to at least fire (but definitely not to magic energy). The Balors there seemed less resistant than the Glabrezus, I spammed some sunray (from items) in the beginning and blinded all the Balors. I think even with their resistances they could be just spammed down if I manage to save the couple of chain contingencies for that. Jons timestop + nomnom yourface was probably the thing that scared me the most, but I didn't get to see all his moves :D (I did enjoy his plantar and timestops). It's little bit puzzling on how to protect the chars who don't have access to pfmw & immunity abju. I have a feeling even in best case I need a little bit of luck.

 

I've seen few different XP limit mods around. In some you can set % to reduce xp rewards, and there was even one that let you set separate limits for each act (but given I enjoyed clearing act2 before moving on that might cause issues). I think I'll have to find one that cuts the rewards. It's not that it's difficult not to push the level up button (although the sound is superannoying) but it'd feel more concistent overal to keep progress flowing nicely for duration of the game. I think I hit the cap in the end of act5.

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I dont know where you could get an xp limiter as, having lost my original CDs, I'm playing BG2 complete from gog.com and (fortunately?) the original SoA xp cap of 2.95m is in effect in this version.

I have GoG version as well, but that doesn't impose any xp cap on SoA. The moment ToB is installed, XP gets capped at 8 million.

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I dont know where you could get an xp limiter as, having lost my original CDs, I'm playing BG2 complete from gog.com and (fortunately?) the original SoA xp cap of 2.95m is in effect in this version.

I have GoG version as well, but that doesn't impose any xp cap on SoA. The moment ToB is installed, XP gets capped at 8 million.

 

You're right, I just tested on a clean install of the game I have at the moment and the cap is indeed 8 mil. But I distinctly remember bumping up against the 3m cap in a run awhile back as a solo sorcerer...so either I was mistaken about being capped or it was a component of some random mod, I dont know which. Rather than try and restore this, I think I'll be satisfied just giving some or all SoA casters HLAs to compensate for my uncapped-ness...or using the tweakpack's delay HLAs component.

 

In terms of limiting xp, ToBEx has a component that "Disables the hard-coded feature where the party gains 110% of the experience actually coded in creatures" and with Atweaks you can nerf or completely disable xp from scrolls and locks/traps. Those would be a good start if not a fix entirely for progressing too quickly.

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Cheers, SimDing0's mod seems to do exactly what I want. I wonder if there's something like that for BG1 content too (for tutu/bgt) as I remember having same issue there. I'll look into it closer later, but I assume each xp reward (at least quest rewards) has to be tweaked individually, which means that added content might not get these changes? Unless it can be done in a systematical way.

 

Jarno: The link doesn't seem to work, unfortunately. I bet that's the one I thought as the "act based" one.

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Has there ever been any thought given to blocking the player's ability to steal from fences (if not every store even though I recognize that the ability to steal from them is an intended part of vanilla's gameplay) in SCSII to prevent the well known infinite gold exploit?

In fact, I made a mod for that some (long) time ago. But I cannot find it now.

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