Question to THAC0 bonus effects

[jastey]

I did understand what THAC0 is and that it is better the lower the number is.

 

But for applying a bonus via effect I am confused. In BGII, e.g. "Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization" (brac21.itm) state to give a "THACO: +1 bonus". Looking at the effects, there is a "Base THAC0 bonus" that increments by the value of "1".

 

Doesn't that mean it does "+1", i.e. increase the THAC0 value? Isn't that making it bad?

 

Same question for the Fist THAC0 Modifier [288]: Should I take the value "1" or "-1" if I want the Fist THAC0 to get better?

[Ardanis]

Positive is a bonus, negative is penalty - same as equipment descriptions. ADnD has never been known for making sense.

[Jarno Mikkola]

You now, you could, test it.
But I believe the positive is that of a bonus, so it actually reduces the Thac0, well except in the Flat Value Modifier, where the Thac0 is exactly what the value is set to be. If you open the Bracers of Binding, they give penalty, and that's -5 in the value.

Doesn't that mean it does "+1", i.e. increase the THAC0 value? Isn't that making it bad?

So, nope.

Also if you intent to add this in a kit, be very careful, as the bonus usually tends to multiply on each level up. And that's bad.

Positive is a bonus, negative is penalty - same as equipment descriptions. ADnD has never been known for making sense.

Erhm, no. Don't get any of this twisted, the opcode and the actual value contradict each others. So bonus Thac0(opcode positive value) is negative thac0, while penalty Thac0(opcodes negative value) is positive value, which makes it worse as it increases the Thac0.

[jastey]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

Jarno: What exactly do you mean by "multiplay on level up"?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Jarno: What exactly do you mean by "multiply on level up"?

If you give the bonus with AP_spellname , where the spellname.spl is a simple +1 to Thac0 spell, and you set it to go off at level 1, the effect actually sets your Thac0 to go berserk multiply lower as you level up ... so with the normal thac0 progression of a warrior, the kitted characters Thac0 goes to 19, 17, 15, 13, 11... at levels 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... just from that one effect alone, as in, it gets applied 5 times at level 5.

 

Of course I won't say that it might be because my spell could be off a bits. The effect target being "Pre-target" instead of "Self" etc. or something I don't have any idea about.

[jastey]

Hm, this could be the case in my case - but since it's a joinable NPC, I could take any custom spells from the kit for level 1. Is it a level 1 probem only? Or does the same happen if it is applied on level 2? And how do I prevent this from happening?...

[Jarno Mikkola]

Is it a level 1 problem only?

Clearly not... I have no idea actually how to avoid it. Except the above... blarg.

[Ardanis]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you need a working example, you should take a look at the kensai kit (CLABFI04.2DA).

[Jarno Mikkola]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but if you need a working example, you should take a look at the kensai kit (CLABFI04.2DA).

Actually you are talking about the spcl141.spl . And that works as intended(+1 Thac0 bonus among with the speed bonus). Yes, I figured that already out some time ago... note the target-ting talk.

[Avenger]

So, just to make it more clear:

Using timing mode '1 - hit and run permanent' instead of '9 - permanent after death' in AP_ files is a BAAD practice.

Most of the effects handle '1' specially, as in, modify the base stat and vanish (hit and run). Also a ctrl-r will remove those that decide to not mod a base stat but stick around.

 

'9' works as really really permanent as in sticking around on the 'cre' unless specifically removed.

 

Now... the kit relevant part is...

When the engine applies the changes at level up, it tries to remove AP_ spells and reapplies them. (level drains can also force this).

Obviously, it won't be able to remove hit and run timed effects, so they will do all sorts of unwanted cumulative crap in case of level up/dual classing/paladin/ranger fallen, etc.

 

So, don't ever use timing mode 1 in your AP_ spells.

[Jarno Mikkola]

...

So, don't ever use timing mode 1 in your AP_ spells.

Except if the opcode itself is meant to be used with the Hit and Run tactic. This oddity could actually explains a few facts of the level drain/restoration features...

 

The full story is, I made a kit that is applied to a dual classed mage, dualed from a cleric, now the clerics class is razed with the opcode when the mage levels up. If I use the timing 9; Every time the mage levels up, the cleric gain a level during and after the level the opcode is applied with the AP_, and if I use multiple effects, the cleric gets too many levels ahead of the mage if the character is leveled up multiple times(this disables the cleric side of the character).

If I use the timing 1; I can apply multiple effects and they work non-cumulatively.

-This is at least in the regular BGII - ToB.

 

Sorry for the thread-regen, but I just found this out as ... I went back to the mod I was making...