Haste and Slow

[kreso]

no save Slow could be used on an ancient dragon with 100% success, effectively halving both melee and spellcasting prowness for a prolonged time (10 rounds is a lot of time).

Dragons are immune to it, but it would still be pretty powerful for a level 3 spell. I tweaked the Slow spell myself once (a year ago I think) so that it it's a no-save for 1 round, then if the save is failed the duration is increased. This would probably overlap with FtS too much now.

[subtledoctor]

I was summoned to give thoughts on kreso's Haste proposal. I like it. Single-target at 3rd level, affects all friends at 6th level. It's a nerf, but an obvious way to counter the nerf is to eliminate the fatigue afterward. I know, I know, it's in PnP, but in the context of this game it's nothing more than an annoyance. And the game doesn't even give us any countermeasures (though I think Aurora's Shoes & Boots adds some items for that.)

 

And I think Slow is OP, only to the extent that it lasts too long. It should be reduced to ~1 round per 2 levels.

[Salk]

I keep both Haste and Mass Haste should keep the fatigue instead (I expressed my opinion to kreso before).

 

In the game, the fatigue is certainly not just there to annoy. It presents a strategic challenge, making the player aware that there are consequences for the use of hasting spells. Plus, it makes so much sense that fatigue comes after it.

 

So I feel strongly about keeping fatigue for any incarnation of hasting effects.

 

Like kreso said, it's still a powerful spell even with fatigue. To strike the right balance though, the fatigue itself should last shortly but still proportionally to the duration of the Haste spell. Speaking of which, it'd be good to counterbalance the nerfing with a longer duration.

 

The way I see it, Haste and Slow should be direct opposites but Demi here says it's not possible to remove the casting time delay for Slow, which is a shame.

[CrevsDaak]

 

 

 

If Haste and Slow are made single target, Mass Haste and Mass Slow should use the same stats (not more bonuses/penalties) IMO.

Mmm...a single target Haste spell could still perform extremely well imo (right now it's kinda OP for its spell lvl depending on party composition), but Slow as a single target spell would be utterly useless imo. Just compare it to other disabling spells of similar levels and you'll notice they either have much harsher effects and/or large AoE.

 

What if you take away the save from Slow, and give it a fixed duration (1 turn for example, and do the same with Haste, as you've said)?

 

Then Slow would become almost OP imo. Fully removing a save from a disabling spell makes it HUGELY more powerful, that's why PW:Blind is such a high lvl spell. Just an extreme example: no save Slow could be used on an ancient dragon with 100% success, effectively halving both melee and spellcasting prowness for a prolonged time (10 rounds is a lot of time).

 

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking that in BG1 Slow is OP, and that nobody saves against it (I mean, low levels = crappy saves), but I didn't take into account BG2's battles, lol.

 

What about giving Slow a very small AoE, and making it improve with levels (-1 to AC every 8 levels past lvl5, -1 to THAC0, same rate)? I think that'll work in balance terms but it's definitely not like PnP.

[kreso]

 

Interesting...though Kreso is already testing a "Haste without haste opcode" and it seems to work fine. I'm waiting for him to check dragons.

 

They seem fine. Tested on Thaxy and Firkraag - no problem.

[kreso]

To elaborate a bit on Dragon Haste - some don't use it at all

- some will cast it in a sequencer

- few will cast is as a memorized spell

- no dragon has more than one memorized

- they rarely check for scriptingstate, and if they do, it's for their sequencer.

 

Thus, Haste without haste isn't breaking anything.

[Demivrgvs]

Just a quick note.

 

For tonight's build I've tweaked Haste and Improved Haste to not use Haste opcode anymore as discussed. This finally fixes the issue with doubled repeating EFFs, poison effects and regen rate.

 

Haste

It has been made single target but its thac0/AC/reflex saves bonuses have been increased to +2 (matching Slow ones), and do not forget that it now always give a full +1 apr, unlike vanilla Haste which assigned only +1/2 apr to creatures with 3/2, 5/2 or 7/2 apr.

 

Overall this is obviously a "nerf", but a deserved one because the spell was kinda OP, especially when used to buff tons of creatures. Otoh, it is actually even better than before to hugely buff a single selected creature.

 

I know some of you asked for increased duration, but I'd like to test it like this for now. If play-testing shows that it needs higher duration or reduced/removed fatigue effect, I will act accordingly.

 

Improved Haste

Pretty much a Mass Haste now, but I've kept a few differences. Ironically, the description now looks again much closer to vanilla one: "When this spell is cast, each affected creature functions at double normal movement rate, gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls, armor class, and saving throws vs. breath, and can make one extra attack each round. Spellcasting and spell effects are not affected. There are three major differences between the third level wizard spell Haste and this spell. The first major difference is that this spell will affect all allied creatures within its area of effect. The second major difference is that there is no period of fatigue following the expiration of the spell. Third and finally, this haste spell cannot be counter by Slow."

 

Making it a Mass version of Haste has quite a few benefits imo:

- avoid its vanilla ridiculous potential when applied to warriors with 4-5 apr (it was a Gr. Whirlwind Attack with 20 times longer duration!)

- make it clearly stand out over its lesser cousin

- make it not compete with (and outshine) Tenser Transformation when it comes to F/M self-buff

 

Time will tell if I dared too much, but I admit it's really cool to have the mod flagged as "beta" so that I can try all the crazy stuff and eventually revert it before too many players want me dead for ruining spell x.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Improved Haste

Pretty much a Mass Haste now...

Erhm, to me it sounds like MASS HASTE... but I have no arguments about it, except the name but... I have a request, could you make an actual; Improved Haste, ironically the -roved version(notice the fun fact about the missing word, joke) would use the Haste Effect and double the attack speed, AND be single target, ouh and be 7th or 8th level spell, not 6th.

And a crazy balance fact, the spell would make the user immune to cure poison and slow poison effects. Cause that's it's weakness.

[Demivrgvs]

@Jarno, the Improved part still makes sense imo because unlike Haste it cannot be countered by Slow and doesn't cause fatigue.

[Jarno Mikkola]

OK, then, give me an Advanced Haste... ... yes, this becomes ridiculous soon. You can count on me ! (that is, if you won't give me what I want ... )
And I didn't prove it yet.... the next step on the crazy train is of course the Expedient Haste, spell level 9, casting time 1, and with the Advanced Haste effects and ouh, immunity to Time Stop.

[kreso]

Fwiw, when I asked people around if this was a too daring suggestion to implement, my proposed tweak (and the one I playtested with) was this:

 

level 3 Haste
+1 apr, +1 AC, +1 breath saves, lasts 60 seconds + 6 seconds/level (3 turns at level 18 I think), single target, causes fatigue afterwards

level 6 Mass Haste
+1 apr, +1 AC, +1 breath saves, lasts 60 seconds + 6 seconds/level (up to 108 seconds), affects everyone in aoe, no fatigue (debatable).

 

Toughts:

- level 3 Haste still rocks just as ever in BG1. Sure, you usually won't buff mages with it; as opossed to AoE version, but that's irrelevant since they miss usually anyway. However, fighters (which are usually stuck at 3/2 apr for a long time) benefit more from it than before, since it no longer casues that crappy apr rounding. This means fighter will usually attack with more apr, which is more important than giving your mage an extra sling shot at THAC0 15. In additon, the spell finally does what it's description says - adds one extra attack, not "half in some cases".

- the scaling duration gives this spell a long-term prospect into late game, where it can be used almost as a spell you don't cast as last in prebuff routine (like Chant or Def.Harmony), and it negated the boredom of constantly spamming the spell, especially in ToB (fwiw, my testing run ended in ToB - played without reloading with a swashbuckler who progressed at a rate of a paladin - thus I really think this isn't a huge nerf to the spell. )

- probably my favourite part - it has a huge effect on weapon speed factor. With haste no longer doubling (actually cutting it in half), it plays an even more important role than before

- throughout the game, it was the sole most used spell on both my mages (Edwin and Xan, respectfully). Given the harsh competition at level 3 (Skull Trap, Flame Arrow, Remove Magic, LB, Slow) I'd label it as crucial, just as it was before.

- the only thing that this nerfed is summons in BG1. Imo, this is good - summons' power is usually drastically improved by "old" Haste (ogre berserkers; even little skeletons, become lethal with Bless+Haste).

 

level 6 version (I renamed it "Mass Haste") is ofc nice, as it should be given it's slot. Giving things such as Planetars, Wraiths etc. an extra attack/AC/saves/movement speed is indeed worth a 6th (not 3rd) level slot. Now it has a real competition with PFMW (mandatory), True Seeing,, PFME, Chain Ligtning, Disintegrate, Pierce Magic, GoI and similar stuff.

 

Another notable aspect is ofc regeneration rate - with this tweak, it usually means that regen rates are cut in half (people usually fight hasted at higher levels). I'm not sure how to balance regen items (or spells for that matter now).

 

Some notable ideas (hope the autors don't mind; I think these are all really good ideas with a lot of merit and I'd hate to see them lost)

... If (Haste) it was nerfed I think it would be a good idea to include some kind of AoE move-speed only spell like Expeditious Retreat as an alternative for that use (traveling through areas)....

 

....Mass version is just better version of the single one. In my opinion, the level 3 Haste needs to provide some unique benefit, such as much more long duration, etc.....

 

....Mass Haste should still cause fatigue because it doesn't make much sense that it doesn't. It's practically the same level 3 spell with an AoE so it should cause fatigue....

[subtledoctor]

Personally I love the way these two spells are shaping up. I don't think you'll have to revert it. The player can always just remove it from their override folder and get the original back...