Metamagic

[subtledoctor]

...By which I mean Sequencers and Contingencies.

 

I remember reading that you plan to make them innate abilities. Is this still planned? (Has it already been done? I don't have a free game in which to test the beta atm.)

 

I ask because I've tried to do the same thing, and I got tripped up by the fact that you can end up with two innate abilities with the same icon but different effects (the 'cast Spell Sequencer' ability, and the resulting sequencer itself).

 

If you're still working on this, and interested in discussing it, I've thought of some workarounds, and already have it partially coded up.

 

Workaround #1 is to just give them different icons. Fairly easy if you can edit BAMs, but to me not 100% satisfactory.

 

Workaround #2 is to cast them from the item abilities button instead of the innate abilities button. Cast Spell Sequencer as an item ability, and it gives you an innate ability with the contents of the sequencer. I'd prefer it switched around, but at least this way you don't mix up the buttons. I have a working version of this I could share.

 

Workaround 3 is to use innate abilities, but only allow one to exist at a time by use of Remove Ability and Give Ability global effects. This is still theoretical atm, I haven't yet tested it.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I remember reading that you plan to make them innate abilities. Is this still planned? (Has it already been done?

There's a two folded answer for this; No, it hasn't been released, as far as I know. And it was part of the Kit Revision plans for the mage kits.

[subtledoctor]

Ah! I didn't realize it was moved to KR. Thx

[Demivrgvs]

I can confirm what Jarno says, it was planned for Spell Revisions, but then we decided it was more appropriate to move such tweak to Kit Revisions, same thing for mage HLAs becoming innates (e.g. Dragon's Breath).

 

The only doubt I have right now is how SCS handles it, because DavidW liked tit so much that SCS already uses HLAs as innates (can't remember if it does it by default or if it's optional), but there's no SR/KR check for it. Anyway, SCS would hugely benefit from contingencies/triggers becoming innates imo:

- players would complain less about SCS mages using tons of them

- AI mages would have way more "legal" spell slots to use (e.g. +1 6th lvl spell spent on PfWM, GoI or Banishment instead of Contingency)

[subtledoctor]

So, I might as well get some expert opinions while I'm here. If you move the sequencer spells to innates, you have the quesiton of what to do with SPWI420, SPWI710, and SPWI809. In the pre-EE games you can't add them to hidespl.2da, so even if you eliminate their scrolls, sorcerers and TOB starts will still make them available for spell lists.

 

I have an interesting implementation right now: an innate MSS ability that uses opcode 146 'Cast Spell' to cast SPWI420 (it was the simplest, quickest way to make a working innate version). It also has a global effect to remove itself from the player, so it's one use only. Then I patched spwi420d.spl and spwi420p.spl with an added global effect that uses opcode 171 'Give Innate Ability' to add the MSS innate back to the player when he fires the sequencer.

 

So it's working great in a basic sense: you have the ability to create a sequencer, then you have the sequencer, and after you fire off the sequencer do you regain the ability to create another one. But, here's the interesting bit that gives me pause: you can still learn the spell. The first time you cast the spell it creates a sequencer, and after you use the sequencer it gives you the innate ability. So learning the spell, and casting it once, permamnently gives you the innate ability. It even works for sorcerers: they gain an innate ability, which is great; but must use up one of their precious 'known spells' choices to get it. A trade-off! I think player choices with trade-offs are generally a very good thing in this game.

 

Frankly I kind of love this implementation. It ends up with innate sequencers just like you describe, in a way that keeps most of the game resources intact and bug-free. The only question is whether it would be too confusing for players. This SR forum certainly contains the best collection of people to give opinions on this, so I put the question to you: does this sound good? Great? A terrible compromise?

 

(As soone as I have it ready, I'll upload a draft version of it so you can play around with it.)

[kreso]

In the pre-EE games you can't add them to hidespl.2da

Why? Afaik you only need Tobex for that table; EE stole borrowed this thingie from it anyway.

 

Does your solution mean that you can "spam" sequencers indefinitely (I don't mind, but if you could create another as soon as you fire the one you have that would be a bit too much)?

Fwiw, I'd love to have "innate" sequncers since the in-game implementation is imo so bad that I usually cast 2 or 3 through the entire game, and only if I get to Ascension (hasn't happened in a long while anyway).

Chain Contingency, otoh, is good as it is. That's a powerful spell.

[subtledoctor]

Does your solution mean that you can "spam" sequencers indefinitely (I don't mind, but if you could create another as soon as you fire the one you have that would be a bit too much)?

 

Chain Contingency, otoh, is good as it is. That's a powerful spell.

 

Yes: as soon as you've fired one off you can create another. But you still have to use memorized spells, so you don't gain much from this. You have to create the sequencer in round 1 (with a very long casting time, during which you are quite vulnerable) and then fire it in round 2. So I guess in the case of Sequencer and Trigger it saves you 6 seconds versus just casting the three spells. But if you just cast the spells, one of them will get off in round 1. So, :/

 

EDIT: okay, just because I'm such a swell guy, I've taken your concern into account and added a 5-round delay before you get the ability back, that should remove any exploitative effect. Be warned, I have not tested what happens if you die before you get the ability back. BUT, even if you lose it permanently, you can gain it back by learning the spell again from a scroll!

 

So here's a link to my work in progress:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86011511/SoB%20mages.zip

 

What this does:

 

1) Gives all wizards access to a cantrip appropriate for their specialization, which can be cast at will. The True Mage can cast all 8 cantrips.

 

2) Wizards get Minor Spell Deflection, nerfed and renamed "Parry Magic," as an innate cantrip at 3rd level. It can be cast once every 5 rounds. Wizards also get Spell Thrust as an innate cantrip at 5th level. It can be cast every round. Sorcerers cannot use these skills. (I think.)

 

3) Minor Spell Squencer (renamed Minor Spell Matrix for the sake of clarity and flavor - Demi, I took that from SR so let me know if you don't want me to do it) and Spell Sequencer and Spell Trigger are modified as I described above: you learn the spell, cast it to create the sequencer, it removes itself from your spellbook, and from that point on you can use it as an innate ability. True mages get the innate ability directly at levels 7, 12, and 15, as a minor advantage, it just avoids having to track down the scrolls. Sorcerers can choose it in the spell choice screen and it should convert into an innate ability in the same way.

 

4) True Mages get an innate version of Contingency at level 9, but I haven't changed in in any other way. I could easily give the innate to specialists and sorcerers as well, but I like True Mages to have some advantage. Anyway specialists can devote one of those many extra spell slots to it, and I'm not sure Contingency suffers from the same kind of memorize - sleep - rememorize anoyance as the sequencers, since you're not likely to fire off contingencies as often (putting aside CC abuse, which you can't do as easily with the 6th level spell). Also, I don't love the idea of converting CC into an innate - anything granted via CLAB at epic levels should really be an HLA instead... but modifying the HLA tables is a huge PITA.

 

Let me know what you think. Demi, if you like any of this, feel free to use or adapt any part of it for KR.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Y You have to create the sequencer in round 1 (with a very long casting time, during which you are quite vulnerable)

So you are setting the casters AC to 10, for the duration of the casting, then ?

[Demivrgvs]

My 2 cents.

 

One advantage of making triggers/contingencies innates within SR rather then with KR is that I could make use of those scroll resource for something else (KR will have to simply erase them from game stores/locations) but I think it makes more sense for such a radical change to be part of the class/kit revision.

 

Regarding your suggested addition of "at will" Spell Deflection and Spell Thrust, it's an even bigger change to the game system, probably too big for SR imo. The only thing I could see myself doing is giving KR's Abjurer some similar ability, but I would not extend it to every mage in the game.

 

P.S Contingencies/triggers within SR cannot be cast (edit: I mean prepared) during a fight, and that will not change even if they become innate. I think that's crucial to avoid their spam.

 

(renamed Minor Spell Matrix for the sake of clarity and flavor - Demi, I took that from SR so let me know if you don't want me to do it)

I didn't invented that, that rename ant the other ones I made are the correct PnP names for those spells when used within Forgotten Realms environment.

[subtledoctor]

Yeah - the innate Spell Deflection/Thrust are irrelevant to this particular discussion, that's just another pet project of mine, it's the method I settled on to somewhat liberalize the 'spell battle' system in a way that plays nice with SCS. I only mentioned them, and the cantrips, because they're included in the download and I didn't want people to be confused.

 

P.S Contingencies/triggers within SR cannot be cast (edit: I mean prepared) during a fight, and that will not change even if they become innate. I think that's crucial to avoid their spam.

Oooh... that's very useful. Is there a flag for that?

[Jarno Mikkola]

Oooh... that's very useful. Is there a flag for that?

Well, according to NI and iesdp, yep, the flag 16, aka bit 0 at byte 3, is "Non combat ability".

 

The KR&SR could have a cross mod component build into both to replace the suspended spells with other spells. Not that you couldn't have more than you need the amount x anyways... as not every spell needs to be script-able(so you can enable them to mages only by adding custom scrolls).

[kreso]

Be warned, I have not tested what happens if you die before you get the ability back.

Afaik, you should get it back unless you use permanent until death timing. At least when I modified KR Rage/other innates in such a manner everything worked fine.

Keep in mind that spells have different casting time. You can only ever cast on per round, but ct=10 and ct=3 is a huge difference for those spells you want to sqeeze into triggers. Personaly, I'd make those 5 rounds period into a 8 hour period (i.e. once/day), not shorter.

In addition, if your mage has something that reduces casting time like Vecna, innates are cast instantly with very little, if any, chance for interruption - making them much more practical to get of in combat.

SCS doesn't count sequncered spells as part of memorization slots.

[subtledoctor]

Well I coded it so that sequencers and triggers have an added global effect "Give Innate Ability," with "delay/permanent" timing mode. IIRC "delay/permanent" converts to "permanent until death" after the delay, so it could be an issue here. But still, I actually think it's fine - kind of cool, actually - to lose the ability if the magic is in a precarious state when you die. Because simply re-learning the spell from a scroll will give it back. (Sorcerers would be kind of screwed, though.)

 

On the other hand, a far better solution would be to do what Demi suggested, just preventing you from using the "create sequencer" abilities in combat. It would prevent in-combat exploits, and allow me to use instant/permanent timing. And if Jarno's flag works, super-easy to implement. I'll get on it.

[kreso]

Well I coded it so that sequencers and triggers have an added global effect "Give Innate Ability," with "delay/permanent" timing mode.

It will work fine then, unless sequencers have some special crappy code around them.

[Dakk]

1) Gives all wizards access to a cantrip appropriate for their specialization, which can be cast at will. The True Mage can cast all 8 cantrips.

Tell us more