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Overlap with SCS & aTweaks spell components


toxin

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[posted a similar question in the IR forum: http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27682]

 

I know SR is compatible with said mods, but I take that to mean nothing would be broken when mixing and matching overlapping features (e.g. both mods changing the same spell). What I don't understand is what exactly will happen - will both changes complement each other and live in harmony? Will the SCS/aTweaks version replace the SR version? Will the SCS/aTweaks version be ignored?

 

For example, should I install the "more consistent Breach" SCS component? How would that component interact with all the changes SR does to Breach? Basically I'm trying to understand whether or not installing spell components from SCS/aTweks makes sense, and if so which ones have the desired impact (assuming I want SR's version in any case of conflict).

 

EDIT: I went over the list and these are the components that seem relevant in this context:

 

SCS

  • Protection from Normal Missiles also blocks Arrows of Fire/Cold/Acid and similar projectiles without pluses: v30
  • Allow Spellstrike to take down a Protection from Magic scroll: v30
  • More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v30
  • Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility: v30
  • Iron Skins behaves like Stoneskin (can be brought down by Breach): v30
  • Modify the Harm spell so it does damage rather than reducing target to 1 hp
  • Allow individual versions of Spell Immunity to be placed into Contingencies and Spell Triggers: v30
  • Revert Greater Restoration back to only affecting one creature: v30
  • Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades only affect hostile creatures: v30
  • Cap damage done by Skull Trap at 12d6: v30
  • Make Power-Word: Blind single-target: v30
  • Make Minute Meteors into +2 weapons: v30
  • Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic
  • Slightly weaken insect plague spells, and let fire shields block them: v30
  • Cosmetic change: stop Stoneskins from changing the caster's colour: v30
  • Slightly increase the power of Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity: v30
  • Make spell sequencers, spell triggers, and contingencies learnable by all mages: v30
  • Add an extra copy of some hard-to-find spell scrolls: v30
  • True Sight/True Seeing spells protect from magical blindness: v30
  • Prevent Simulacra and Projected Images from using magical items: v30
  • Grant large, flying, non-solid or similar creatures protection from Web and Entangle: v30
  • Improved shapeshifting: v30
  • Make Freedom scrolls available earlier: v30
  • Treat mages' and priests' High-Level Abilities as innate abilities rather than memorisable spells (each may be taken only once): v30
  • Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to spellcasters

aTweaks

  • Prevent skeletal and incorporeal undead from being affected by Illithids' Devour Brain attack: v4.50b1
  • Change Spiritual Hammer into a ranged force weapon: v4.50b1
  • Allow Dispel/Remove Magic to take down Globes of Invulnerability: v4.50b1
  • PnP Color Spray: v4.50b1
  • PnP Dimension Door: v4.50b1
  • Rangers' Animal Empathy improves with experience: v4.50b1
  • PnP Fiends
  • Further Revised Fiend Summoning: v4.50b1
  • Fiendish gating: v4.50b1
  • PnP Undead: v4.50b1
  • PnP Mephits: v4.50b1
  • PnP Fey creatures: v4.50b1
  • Revised Call Woodland Beings spell: v4.50b1
  • PnP Elementals: v4.50b1
  • Use Icewind Dale's Dimension Door animation
  • Expanded temple services: v4.50b1
  • Use Icewind Dale's Dimension Door animation
  • Allow Breach to take down Stoneskin effects applied by items: v4.50b1
  • Instant casting for warrior innates: v4.50b1
  • Revised Bhaalpowers
  • Make druidic shapeshifting uninterruptable: v4.50b1
  • Prevent Mislead clones from singing Bard songs: v4.50b1
  • Prevent Project Image and Simulacrum clones from using quickslot items: v4.50b1
  • Restore the Dispel Magic vulnerability to Nishruu and Hakeashars: v4.50b1
  • Make Death Ward protect against Vorpal Hits: v4.50b1
  • Make alignment detection spells more accurate: v4.50b1
  • Bard songs break invisibility

BG2Tweaks

  • Icewind Dale Casting Graphics (Andyr): v16
  • Shapeshifter Rebalancing: v16
  • Cast Spells from Scrolls (and Other Items) at Character Level: v16
  • Change Magically Created Weapons to Zero Weight: v16
  • Remove Delay for Magical Traps (Ardanis/GeN1e): v16
  • Remove Summoning Cap for Regular Summons: v16
  • Remove Summoning Cap for Celestials (Ardanis/GeN1e): v16
  • Remove fatigue from restoration spells: v16
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When SCS detects IR and/or SR it automatically skips a lot of its own tweaks because Revisions already includes almost all SCS spell/item tweaks by default.

 

I don't remember off hand which SCS spell/item tweaks are still offered to the player, if you can give me a list I'll comment on each one if needed.

 

"More consistent Breach" is not skipped because this is one of the few things we did differently. SCS gives this option to let Breach bypass liches and rakshasas immunities while SR gives you a high level version of Breach in the forms of Pierce Shield (not facing a lich before lvl 13-14 seems about right to me anyway). You can install SCS tweak on top of SR if you feel liches and rakshasas are too tough, SCS will simply patch that feature on top of SR's Breach.

 

I'm less familiar with aTweaks, but if you point me to your doubts I can try to help.

 

EDIT: I see you added the list, I'll work on it asap and reply. ;)

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SCS

  • Protection from Normal Missiles also blocks Arrows of Fire/Cold/Acid and similar projectiles without pluses: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Allow Spellstrike to take down a Protection from Magic scroll: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility: v30 // SKIP
  • Iron Skins behaves like Stoneskin (can be brought down by Breach): v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Modify the Harm spell so it does damage rather than reducing target to 1 hp // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Allow individual versions of Spell Immunity to be placed into Contingencies and Spell Triggers: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Revert Greater Restoration back to only affecting one creature: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades only affect hostile creatures: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Cap damage done by Skull Trap at 12d6: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Make Power-Word: Blind single-target: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Make Minute Meteors into +2 weapons: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic // Install if you like and *are not* using Kit Revisions
  • Slightly weaken insect plague spells, and let fire shields block them: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Cosmetic change: stop Stoneskins from changing the caster's colour: v30 // INSTALL IF YOU LIKE (I don't since I like to see if stoneskin is active)
  • Slightly increase the power of Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Make spell sequencers, spell triggers, and contingencies learnable by all mages: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Add an extra copy of some hard-to-find spell scrolls: v30 // IF YOU'RE USING "STORE REVISIONS" SKIP
  • True Sight/True Seeing spells protect from magical blindness: v30 // REDUNDANT WITH SR, BUT INSTALL! SCS WON'T COUNTER BLINDNESS WITH TS IF THIS ISN'T INSTALLED.
  • Prevent Simulacra and Projected Images from using magical items: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Grant large, flying, non-solid or similar creatures protection from Web and Entangle: v30 // DOESN'T MATTER, I install
  • Improved shapeshifting: v30 // IRRELEVANT, do as you like
  • Make Freedom scrolls available earlier: v30 // MESSES WITH BALANCE I THINK
  • Treat mages' and priests' High-Level Abilities as innate abilities rather than memorisable spells (each may be taken only once): v30 // IRRELEVANT; I'd use it only with SR however
  • Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to spellcasters // IRRELEVANT, do as you like

 

As per aTweaks, I don't really like to mix it with SR.

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Thank you so much kreso, that is super helpful!

I also compiled a list of BG2 tweaks related components (forgot they overlap too sometimes), any chance you could take a look?

 

Yea.

 

BG2Tweaks

  • Icewind Dale Casting Graphics (Andyr): v16 // irrelevant, I use it since I like it
  • Shapeshifter Rebalancing: v16 // I have not-so-fond memories of Greater Bearweres and similar nonsense. I'd skip, this is ancient Weimer work.
  • Cast Spells from Scrolls (and Other Items) at Character Level: v161 // I don't use it nor have a strong opinion on it.
  • Change Magically Created Weapons to Zero Weight: v16 // afaik this is implemented
  • Remove Delay for Magical Traps (Ardanis/GeN1e): v16 // implemented in SR
  • Remove Summoning Cap for Regular Summons: v16 // never tried...
  • Remove Summoning Cap for Celestials (Ardanis/GeN1e): v16 // having >1 of these is overkill I think
  • Remove fatigue from restoration spells: v16 // unnececary - fatigue is different in SR (you don't need to rest it off).
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aTweaks

PnP Undead: v4.50b1

PnP Mephits: v4.50b1

PnP Fey creatures: v4.50b1

PnP Elementals: v4.50b1

These should be fine, albeit I never actually tried them out.

 

Allow Dispel/Remove Magic to take down Globes of Invulnerability: v4.50b1

Up to you but I don't know how this goes with SCS AI. If anything, the globes should have been able to block DM so we could get rid of that dman SI:Abj, but that's another story...

 

Revised Bhaalpowers

SR slightly revised these too, but I think aTweaks did more on it.

Rangers' Animal Empathy improves with experience: v4.50b1

Instant casting for warrior innates: v4.50b1

Skip if you are using Kit Revisions, otherwise pick them.

Make druidic shapeshifting uninterruptable: v4.50b1

Bard songs break invisibility

KR will handle this, but until then...

 

PnP Fiends

Further Revised Fiend Summoning: v4.50b1

Fiendish gating: v4.50b1

 

These should have been fine, but combining them with SR/SCS caused issues quite a few times, and half of them I haven't been able to track down. Kreso and others are more expert than me on this matter.

 

PnP Dimension Door: v4.50b1

V3 was making this redundant, now I don't know. No line of sight DD had game breaking potential and for V4 I opted to keep LOS limitation while moving the spell down to lvl 1 closer to a 5E variant of this spell.

 

Expanded temple services: v4.50b1

Skip if you use Store Revisions.

 

Revised Call Woodland Beings spell: v4.50b1

SR V4 will expand Revised Call Woodland Beings too (I think I'll take the liberty to give Dryads a bow).

 

Prevent skeletal and incorporeal undead from being affected by Illithids' Devour Brain attack: v4.50b1

Change Spiritual Hammer into a ranged force weapon: v4.50b1

PnP Color Spray: v4.50b1

Prevent Mislead clones from singing Bard songs: v4.50b1

Prevent Project Image and Simulacrum clones from using quickslot items: v4.50b1

Restore the Dispel Magic vulnerability to Nishruu and Hakeashars: v4.50b1

Make Death Ward protect against Vorpal Hits: v4.50b1

Make alignment detection spells more accurate: v4.50b1

 

SR makes these redundant.

 

Use Icewind Dale's Dimension Door animation

I think I used it for Shadow Door instead.

 

Allow Breach to take down Stoneskin effects applied by items: v4.50b1

IR handles this.

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aTweaks

PnP Undead: v4.50b1

PnP Mephits: v4.50b1

PnP Fey creatures: v4.50b1

PnP Elementals: v4.50b1

These should be fine, albeit I never actually tried them out.

 

They're fine, but Elementals are game-breaking strong. Fey summons are also very, very powerful by the time you get them.

Undead are great, Mephits are ok.

 

 

 

 

PnP Fiends

Further Revised Fiend Summoning: v4.50b1

Fiendish gating: v4.50b1

 

These should have been fine, but combining them with SR/SCS caused issues quite a few times, and half of them I haven't been able to track down. Kreso and others are more expert than me on this matter.

They work mostly fine. The problem which arises is clerical level 7 Gate spell (with SR, it's Death Knight summon, aTweaks changes it back to Gate); making it fairly imbalanced since this spell is a carbon copy of a level 9 mage spell - yet available way too soon for clerics. There's a workaround by copying summoning eff and spl back from aTweaks backup to overrride. I wrote about it on aTweaks forum, I don't know if Wisp will/has handle(d) this issue.

SCS also adds a few demons of it's own, depending on caster alignment, thus Lawful mages will gate Bone Fiends which will remain unavailable to the party - it's a purely SCS added creature. aTweaks makes them summonable by lawful/neutral PCs as well.

Overall, I'd skip aTweaks demons with SR, if only since SR is based around balance, while aTweaks is based around emulating PnP. There's nothing wrong about either approach, but mix&match fo the two isn't something I'd endorse when it comes to Demons or Elementals.

One will also have some Detectable spells & items issues; but nothing too big - or even noticable for an average user.

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Thanks again guys, great job documenting this stuff :worship:

Hopefully it finds itself stickied in some form or the other...

 

I hope so too because toxin's question about compatibility with other mainstream mods components was very important.

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aTweaks

PnP Undead: v4.50b1

PnP Mephits: v4.50b1

PnP Fey creatures: v4.50b1

PnP Elementals: v4.50b1

These should be fine, albeit I never actually tried them out.

 

They're fine, but Elementals are game-breaking strong. Fey summons are also very, very powerful by the time you get them.

Undead are great, Mephits are ok.

I'm actually having issues with aTweaks Undead and SR. The skeleton created by the "Animate Skeleton Warrior" spell cannot be controlled (no circle beneath it, I can't even try and "talk" to it). Once I remove the Undead component I can control the skeleton normally.

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aTweaks

PnP Undead: v4.50b1

PnP Mephits: v4.50b1

PnP Fey creatures: v4.50b1

PnP Elementals: v4.50b1

These should be fine, albeit I never actually tried them out.

 

They're fine, but Elementals are game-breaking strong. Fey summons are also very, very powerful by the time you get them.

Undead are great, Mephits are ok.

I'm actually having issues with aTweaks Undead and SR. The skeleton created by the "Animate Skeleton Warrior" spell cannot be controlled (no circle beneath it, I can't even try and "talk" to it). Once I remove the Undead component I can control the skeleton normally.

 

 

Can anybody else confirm this problem? I am about to install aTweaks and I was thinking of having PnP Undead but after this report I am having second thoughts.

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SCS

  • Protection from Normal Missiles also blocks Arrows of Fire/Cold/Acid and similar projectiles without pluses: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Allow Spellstrike to take down a Protection from Magic scroll: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility: v30 // SKIP
  • Iron Skins behaves like Stoneskin (can be brought down by Breach): v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Modify the Harm spell so it does damage rather than reducing target to 1 hp // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Allow individual versions of Spell Immunity to be placed into Contingencies and Spell Triggers: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Revert Greater Restoration back to only affecting one creature: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades only affect hostile creatures: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Cap damage done by Skull Trap at 12d6: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Make Power-Word: Blind single-target: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Make Minute Meteors into +2 weapons: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic // Install if you like and *are not* using Kit Revisions
  • Slightly weaken insect plague spells, and let fire shields block them: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Cosmetic change: stop Stoneskins from changing the caster's colour: v30 // INSTALL IF YOU LIKE (I don't since I like to see if stoneskin is active)
  • Slightly increase the power of Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Make spell sequencers, spell triggers, and contingencies learnable by all mages: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Add an extra copy of some hard-to-find spell scrolls: v30 // IF YOU'RE USING "STORE REVISIONS" SKIP
  • True Sight/True Seeing spells protect from magical blindness: v30 // REDUNDANT WITH SR, BUT INSTALL! SCS WON'T COUNTER BLINDNESS WITH TS IF THIS ISN'T INSTALLED.
  • Prevent Simulacra and Projected Images from using magical items: v30 // WILL BE SKIPPED
  • Grant large, flying, non-solid or similar creatures protection from Web and Entangle: v30 // DOESN'T MATTER, I install
  • Improved shapeshifting: v30 // IRRELEVANT, do as you like
  • Make Freedom scrolls available earlier: v30 // MESSES WITH BALANCE I THINK
  • Treat mages' and priests' High-Level Abilities as innate abilities rather than memorisable spells (each may be taken only once): v30 // IRRELEVANT; I'd use it only with SR however
  • Add high-level abilities (HLAs) to spellcasters // IRRELEVANT, do as you like

 

As per aTweaks, I don't really like to mix it with SR.

The "more consstent breach spell" doesnt get skipped after installing SR first and then doing SCS install. the "antimagic targets imp invis" also isnt skipped.

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That's why "Antimagic Penetrates Imp Invis" says "SKIP" instead of "WILL BE SKIPPED"

 

But geg_ma3gau is correct that "More Consisyent Breach is not skipped, to my knowledge. Nor should it be, since IIRC there is s functional difference between SCS and SR here, and the user should be able to decide which to use...

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