Overlap with SCS & aTweaks item components

[toxin]

[posted a similar question in the SR forum: http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27681&st=0&p=239950]

 

I know IR is compatible with said mods, but I take that to mean nothing would be broken when mixing and matching overlapping features (e.g. both mods changing the same item). What I don't understand is what exactly will happen - will both changes complement each other and live in harmony? Will the SCS/aTweaks version replace the SR version? Will the SCS/aTweaks version be ignored?

 

For example, should I install the "Magical arrows and bolts deal bonus damage equal to their enchantment level" aTweaks component? How would that component interact with all the changes IR does to magical arrows and bolts? Basically I'm trying to understand whether or not installing item components from SCS/aTweks makes sense, and if so which ones have the desired impact (assuming I want IR's version in any case of conflict).

 

EDIT: I went over the list and these are the components that seem relevant in this context:

 

SCS

• Replace BG1-style elemental arrows with BG2 versions: v30
• Replace +1 arrows with nonmagical "fine" ones: v30
• Replace +1 magical weapons with Fine ones: v30
• Replace many +1 magical weapons with Fine ones
• Re-introduce potions of extra-healing: v30
• Reduce the number of Arrows of Dispelling in stores
• Remove the Shield of Balduran from the game: v30
• Remove the invisibility power of the Staff of the Magi: v30
• Move Vhailor's Helm into Throne of Bhaal: v30
• Move the Cloak of Mirroring: v30
• Move the Robe of Vecna into Throne of Bhaal: v30
• Make the healing and resurrection powers of the Rod of Resurrection into separate abilities: v30
• Change Carsomyr so that its Dispel on contact power grants a saving throw: v30
• Remove unrealistically helpful items from certain areas: v30
• Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from certain areas
• Delay the arrival of the "bonus merchants" in the Adventurers' Mart and the Copper Coronet: v30
• Remove the blur graphic effect from the Cloak of Displacement: v30
• Remove animation from the Cloak of Mirroring (leave it for other spells and effects that use the same graphic): v30
• Stackable ankheg shells, winterwolf pelts and wyvern heads: v30

 

aTweaks

• Change the appearance of Valygar's armor: v4.50b1
• Change the appearance of the Robe of Vecna: v4.50b1
• Slightly expanded storage capacity for containers
• Magical arrows and bolts deal bonus damage equal to their enchantment level: v4.50b1

BG2Tweaks

• Remove Helmet Animations: v16
• Weapon Animation Tweaks: v16
• Disable Portrait Icons Added by Equipped Items: v16
• Change Avatar When Wearing Robes or Armor (Galactygon): v16
• Gradual Drow Item Disintegration: v16
• Breakable Iron Nonmagical Shields, Helms, and Armor: v16
• Add Bags of Holding: v16
• Exotic Item Pack: v16
• Stores Sell Higher Stacks of Items: v16
• Gems and Potions Require Identification: v16
• Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash): v16
• Allow Cromwell to Upgrade Watcher's Keep Items: v16
• Allow Cespenar to Use Cromwell Recipes: v16
• Two-Handed Bastard Swords: v16
• Two-Handed Katanas: v16
• Two-Handed Axes: v16
• Universal Clubs: v16
• Weapon Styles for All: v16
• Allow Thieving and Stealth in Heavy Armor: v16
• Allow Arcane Spellcasting in Heavy Armor: v16
• Wear Multiple Protection Items
• Alter Weapon Proficiency System
• Multi-Class Grandmastery (Weimer): v16
• True Grandmastery (Baldurdash): v16
• Make +x/+y Weapons Consistent: v16
• Change Effect of Reputation on Store Prices
• Turn Off The Hideous Cloak-of-Mirroring, Spell-Trap, and Physical Mirror Animations: v16
• Sellable Items (Icelus): v16

[Demivrgvs]

SCS

Many of these are automatically skipped by SCS when IR is installed before SCS but I'll comment on them anyway because I'm not sure which ones are still offered to IR players. Red components are deprecated by IR, green ones are not.

 

Replace BG1-style elemental arrows with BG2 versions: v30

I think this is about BG2 arrows allowing a save to avoid dmg, but regardless IR already tweaks them in its own way I'd say skip it if SCS doesn't skip it already.

 

Replace +1 arrows with nonmagical "fine" ones: v30

Replace +1 magical weapons with Fine ones: v30

Replace many +1 magical weapons with Fine ones

IR had a similar component but for V4 we decided to "hide" it into a .ini option and let players pick SCS tweak if they still want it. We felt the new Store Revisions component was supposed to "remove" the problem by re-arraging the distribution of magical weapons. I admit though that such component still doesn't cover BG1 well, and +1 weapons may still be too common there...

 

Re-introduce potions of extra-healing: v30

Reduce the number of Arrows of Dispelling in stores

Remove unrealistically helpful items from certain areas: v30

Remove unrealistically convenient ammunition from certain areas

Store revisions either already handle these or will. I think Arda did a wonderful job but if anyone gives us proper feedback (e.g. item x should or should not be there) we may improve it if needed.

 

Remove the Shield of Balduran from the game: v30

Remove the invisibility power of the Staff of the Magi: v30

Move Vhailor's Helm into Throne of Bhaal: v30

Move the Cloak of Mirroring: v30

Move the Robe of Vecna into Throne of Bhaal: v30

Change Carsomyr so that its Dispel on contact power grants a saving throw: v30

 

Make the healing and resurrection powers of the Rod of Resurrection into separate abilities: v30

IR removes the Heal ability and simply keeps the rod as an out-of-combat convenient tool. The ability to "spam" x charges of a ranged insta-cast Heal was really OP imo.

 

Delay the arrival of the "bonus merchants" in the Adventurers' Mart and the Copper Coronet: v30

Store Revisions keeps only a few of their items and we move them around. Just skip it.

 

Remove the blur graphic effect from the Cloak of Displacement: v30

I was thinking of makingit trigger only in combat, but for now I left it untouched.

 

Remove animation from the Cloak of Mirroring (leave it for other spells and effects that use the same graphic): v30

IR's Cloak of Cheese doesn't have that ugly animation.

 

Stackable ankheg shells, winterwolf pelts and wyvern heads: v30

I never even considered this, should I?

 

aTweaks

Change the appearance of Valygar's armor: v4.50b1

Change the appearance of the Robe of Vecna: v4.50b1

IR already handle this.

 

Slightly expanded storage capacity for containers

Again, I never even thought about this...

 

Magical arrows and bolts deal bonus damage equal to their enchantment level: v4.50b1

IR already does this.

[toxin]

Thank you so much for the detailed response!

 

Out of curiosity, what happens when I install a deprecated component (for example the Carsomyr change)? Will it mess up the IR version or simply have no effect?

 

As for me, I didn't install Store Revisions since I'm mid-game (and don't want to miss out on some itmes / get the twice), so I guess I'll keep the SCS/aTweaks components that have been specifically deprecated by it.

[kreso]

Thank you so much for the detailed response!

 

Out of curiosity, what happens when I install a deprecated component (for example the Carsomyr change)? Will it mess up the IR version or simply have no effect?

If you install Cloak of Displacement no blur, Blur will be gone. Carsomyr you can't change if you have IR unless you tinker with SCS files governing that. Cloak of cheese change will have no effect, since animation isn't present anyway.

 

 

Replace +1 arrows with nonmagical "fine" ones: v30

Replace +1 magical weapons with Fine ones: v30

Replace many +1 magical weapons with Fine ones

IR had a similar component but for V4 we decided to "hide" it into a .ini option and let players pick SCS tweak if they still want it. We felt the new Store Revisions component was supposed to "remove" the problem by re-arraging the distribution of magical weapons. I admit though that such component still doesn't cover BG1 well, and +1 weapons may still be too common there...

Newest SCS actually "hides" this component if IR is present. So, if you have IR, you can't even select this SCS component....(in addition, it doesn't really go well with "weapon changes" component of IR - example - non-enchanted Bastard sword would do 1D10, while SCS "Fine" Bastard would do 2d4 damage.....).

[toxin]

@kreso - I install using batch files (--force-install-list) so it's good to know I need to drop those, thanks!

 

@Demi - Stackable ankheg shells, winterwolf pelts and wyvern heads is convenient but possibly inconsistent - I mean you can't stack plate mails... Regarding expanded storage capacity for containers, I like it since I'm somewhat of a pack rat and always run out of space

 

I also went over my Weidu log and realized BG2 Tweaks has some possibly overlapping components as well, so I added them to the list. Would be great if one of you could take a look

 

This is really great information on both threads. Perhaps you could add it to the documentation, or make it sticky? I'm guessing other people could be wondering the same..

[Demivrgvs]

BG2Tweaks

Remove Helmet Animations: v16
Disable Portrait Icons Added by Equipped Items: v16
Change Avatar When Wearing Robes or Armor (Galactygon): v16
Gradual Drow Item Disintegration: v16
Breakable Iron Nonmagical Shields, Helms, and Armor: v16
Add Bags of Holding: v16
Gems and Potions Require Identification: v16

Up to you.

Two-Handed Bastard Swords: v16
Two-Handed Katanas: v16
Two-Handed Axes: v16
Universal Clubs: v16

I don't know if these take into account IR's Weapon Changes, I'd skip them anyway.

Wear Multiple Protection Items

IR has a similar component (more balanced and closer to PnP imo), pick the one you prefer.

Change Effect of Reputation on Store Prices

Don't install if you use Store Revisions because it ruins our efforts when it comes to "balancing player's economy".

Weapon Styles for All: v16
Alter Weapon Proficiency System
Multi-Class Grandmastery (Weimer): v16
True Grandmastery (Baldurdash): v16

Don't use these with Kit Revisions, otherwise up to you.

Allow Thieving and Stealth in Heavy Armor: v16
Allow Arcane Spellcasting in Heavy Armor: v16

IR's Revised Armors component already handle this.

Make +x/+y Weapons Consistent: v16
Weapon Animation Tweaks: v16
Turn Off The Hideous Cloak-of-Mirroring, Spell-Trap, and Physical Mirror Animations: v16
Sellable Items (Icelus): v16

Skip.

Exotic Item Pack: v16
Stores Sell Higher Stacks of Items: v16

Store Revisions should cover that.

Bonus Merchants (Baldurdash): v16
Allow Cromwell to Upgrade Watcher's Keep Items: v16
Allow Cespenar to Use Cromwell Recipes: v16

I don't know how these would interact with IR, I'd skip them all.

[subtledoctor]

 

Two-Handed Bastard Swords: v16

Two-Handed Katanas: v16

Two-Handed Axes: v16

Universal Clubs: v16

I don't know if these take into account IR's Weapon Changes, I'd skip them anyway.

I use 2-handed bastard swords with IR, they work great together.

[subtledoctor]

 

Two-Handed Bastard Swords: v16

Two-Handed Katanas: v16

Two-Handed Axes: v16

Universal Clubs: v16

I don't know if these take into account IR's Weapon Changes, I'd skip them anyway.

I use 2-handed bastard swords with IR, they work great together. I suI suspect those other components do too.

[Salk]

 

 

Re-introduce potions of extra-healing: v30

 

 

 

About this... SCS puts extra healing potions also in the BG1 part of BGT. Does IR do the same because I suspect it doesn't...

[toxin]

Thanks again Demi and everyone

The last piece of the puzzle would be aTweaks interaction with SR, if anyone could take a look

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27681

[Demivrgvs]

Two-Handed Bastard Swords: v16

Two-Handed Katanas: v16

Two-Handed Axes: v16

Universal Clubs: v16

I don't know if these take into account IR's Weapon Changes, I'd skip them anyway.

I use 2-handed bastard swords with IR, they work great together. I suI suspect those other components do too.

Good to know. Next IR build will sort of deprecate Universal Clubs though (a component will let mages to use clubs and light xbows; druids use short bows, etc.).

 

Re-introduce potions of extra-healing: v30

About this... SCS puts extra healing potions also in the BG1 part of BGT. Does IR do the same because I suspect it doesn't...

As I said, Store Rev on BG1 is lacking. Btw, I guess I'll have to edit my posts and maybe sticky them somewhere...

 

Thanks again Demi and everyone

The last piece of the puzzle would be aTweaks interaction with SR, if anyone could take a look

http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27681

I'm on it.

[subtledoctor]

Good to know. Next IR build will sort of deprecate Universal Clubs though (a component will let mages to use clubs and light xbows; druids use short bows, etc.)

Just something to be aware of as you tackle that (since I've already done it recently in my own mod). Something like that requires:

1) set usability flags in the .itm

2) set proficiency limits for classes/kits in weapprof.2da

3) change item descriptions

 

- You need to be a little bit clever in step 2) to cover all mod kits installed before IR.

- No matter how clever you are, 2) will still fail to affect mod kits installed after IR. So if a player installs IR and then installs a mod druid kit from Six or DR or wherever, that druid will be unable to use shortbows and players not paying careful attention might think it's IR's failure.

 

This is why my own item tweaks are instructed to be installed after all other kit mods.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2) set proficiency limits for classes/kits in weapprof.2da

Nope. You can allow a specific type of kit get the prof points while all the others do not actually need them, and then put the fact to the benefit box of the kit description.

Also if there any kit mod that makes the kit able to utilize any item that's not direct class one, they also have to just do the 1, while dismissing the 3 as it's not a really big deal... Example: a mage able to use any fighter items(armors excluded) is hardly going to get any benefit of the fact as their Thac0 sucks anyways, and getting the -5 penalty from lack of prof really restricts things back to the traditionally used weapons.

 

@Demi, while you are at it, you could also add a "more universal" weapon use component that respects the rules you give to your items. Aka allow mages and thieves use the usual swords, after all you already have the duals and multies with backstab penalties. The clerics (specially kits) could use them too, as do some druids. Monks could be exception... but then there's the eastern monks, among the used weapons: arquebus... aka guns.

[subtledoctor]

 

2) set proficiency limits for classes/kits in weapprof.2da

Nope. You can allow a specific type of kit get the prof points while all the others do not actually need them, and then put the fact to the benefit box of the kit description.

I don't follow. If the mod description says "Druids can use shortbows, and I roll up a totemic Druid and he can't use

[subtledoctor]

 

2) set proficiency limits for classes/kits in weapprof.2da

Nope. You can allow a specific type of kit get the prof points while all the others do not actually need them, and then put the fact to the benefit box of the kit description.

I don't follow. If the mod description says "Druids can use shortbows," and I roll up a totemic druid and he can't put points into short bows, I'm going to think that's a problem.

 

"X class can use Y weapon," to the typical player, suggests both usability and proficiency. Which means editing the .ITMs and weapprof.2da. And the latter will be incomplete if it doesn't patch every relevant column in weapprof.2da (because if a kit is installed later, those columns won't exist yet).