IR Revised V1.3.800 (2022 January 11th)

[Bartimaeus]

12 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Whoa - I just glanced at the IESDP, I didn’t realize they made the crit bonus opcode stack with itself! 

Meanwhile, I did not realize it didn't stack with itself in ToB... So I guess if you're playing non-EE, you shouldn't stack Rogue of the Gloves with e.g. Silver Sword (but Silver Sword + 2H Weapon Style does stack).

Edited September 12, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Lianos]

On 9/11/2021 at 3:55 AM, Bartimaeus said:

Except for obvious and extreme cases, I have a general policy of "don't nerf stuff just because it's powerful when combined with multiple something elses", .

With IRR it's possbile to combine items, HLAs and potions for immunity to physical attacks. (Even with kresos refined warrior HLAs from SRR it's still possible)
Is this to balance the situation vs mages?

My experience with the Potion of Sight:
The potion will enable the character to see invisible creatures. This works, as the character will auto-attack invisible creatues. However, the targeted creature is not visible to the player - on screen, the players avatar attacks thin air. (this is with BG1EE 2.5)

@Bartimaeus Why did you remove the Potion of Dispelling?

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Lianos said:

With IRR it's possbile to combine items, HLAs and potions for immunity to physical attacks. (Even with kresos refined warrior HLAs from SRR it's still possible)
Is this to balance the situation vs mages?

My experience with the Potion of Sight:
The potion will enable the character to see invisible creatures. This works, as the character will auto-attack invisible creatues. However, the targeted creature is not visible to the player - on screen, the players avatar attacks thin air. (this is with BG1EE 2.5)

@Bartimaeus Why did you remove the Potion of Dispelling?

Potion of Dispelling: After discussion with others, it was determined to be the most useless potion out of everything that made it the best option to replace it with...whatever replaced it, which I don't remember off the top of my head what was (indeed, I didn't even remember a Potion of Dispelling existing in the first place). Potions are not an area of strength for me, as I have a strict personal rule about never using limited-use items in games, so they're not something I really actively oversee except at others' request. Was there a particular use-case you liked Potion of Dispelling for? There's always that risk when you change something many perceive as "totally useless" that other people were able to find specific uses for...

Potion of Sight: If you place this in your override, does it fix the issue? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/zactxm2lxdmtnwc/potn30.spl

Physical resistance:

Bands of Focus: +10%
Full Plate Mail: +20%
Fortress Shield/Gram the Sword of Grief/Spear of Kuldahar: +10%
Horned Helm of the Rock: +10%
Potion of Absorption: +25%
Hardiness: +40% (+25% with SR)
Armor of Faith: +10%
Champion's Strength: +10%

A pure warrior could get a permanent 50% from just their equipment (Bands of Focus, Full Plate Mail, Gram the Sword of Grief, Horned Helm of the Rock). 25% more from a potion that lasts a turn is 75%, 25% more from Hardiness that lasts a turn. I personally don't like +physicalresist% on all armor and disable that via my settings.ini, but even then, you could use Orc Leather for +10% and then Champion's Strength for the 100% still. It's powerful indeed, but I'm not likely to do anything about it, especially because I'm not likely to ever combine all of that, .

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Lianos said:

the Potion of Sight:
The potion will enable the character to see invisible creatures. This works, as the character will auto-attack invisible creatues. However, the targeted creature is not visible to the player - on screen, the players avatar attacks thin air. (this is with BG1EE 2.5)

It’s the way Detect Invisibility/True Sight works with SR/IR. It lets one person see invisible enemies, it doesn’t dispel the invisibility and let everyone see the enemy. AFAIK there’s no simple way to expose an invisible person’s circle without exposing them to everyone. It can be done by combining two kinds of invisibility (invisibility and sanctuary) and having Detect Invisibility dispel one of them. This is what I do in Tome & Blood’s “Revised Invisibility,” for precisely the reason you mention here. 

I think my mod neglects to patch IR Potions of Sight, though, so this is a nice reminder to get on that. Thanks!

[Bartimaeus]

38 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

It’s the way Detect Invisibility/True Sight works with SR/IR. It lets one person see invisible enemies, it doesn’t dispel the invisibility and let everyone see the enemy. AFAIK there’s no simple way to expose an invisible person’s circle without exposing them to everyone. It can be done by combining two kinds of invisibility (invisibility and sanctuary) and having Detect Invisibility dispel one of them. This is what I do in Tome & Blood’s “Revised Invisibility,” for precisely the reason you mention here. 

I think my mod neglects to patch IR Potions of Sight, though, so this is a nice reminder to get on that. Thanks!

No, he means that even normal invisibility/stealth isn't being dispelled. I think it's because the opcode that casts the spell that has the force visible opcode (potn30a.spl) has a target of 0 (i.e. none) for some reason in my potn30.spl. So characters with the potion applied are only targeting invisible enemies via their scripts (because of the anti-improved invisibility opcode, which also affects scripts and allows them to target invisible creatures even if you literally can't see them).

Edited September 12, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Lianos]

Regarding usefulness of potions:

I was also very stingy with limited ressources until recently, when I started a solo run with a Barbarian. I was able to solo BG1+SoD on SCS/Hardcore (with XP cap) thanks to potions. There is also enough money when playing solo to just buy every potion in the game. Too bad the shops did not replenish.

The Potion of Dispelling was replaced by the Potion of Energy Protection, also a very helpful tool. Potion of Dispelling would come in handy when Ray of Enfeeblement, Doom and other debuffs hit.

The change of IR to Potion of Sight is unmatched in originality (in vanilla, it grants Infravision, most useless thing in the world). I will test your fix and report back.

[Lord_Tansheron]

Solo is a different story, especially with SCS.

I did some testing long ago and IIRC there was an AI quirk with SCS where mobs started ignoring you as soon you got to 75% physical damage resistance, and went for other party members instead. So you can be immune to physical damage all you like, but they won't just keep stupidly pounding on you. That obviously doesn't apply when you play solo as there's nothing else to attack

I haven't played in a while so I don't know if SCS still behaves like that, though.

[subtledoctor]

4 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

No, he means that even normal invisibility/stealth isn't being dispelled.

Yeah, I thought this was intentional on Demi’s part. How can internally imbibing a potion cause someone’s invisibility to be dispelled 15 feet away from you, allowing them to be attacked by your allies who did not imbibe the potion? It makes more sense for the effect to be personal, i.e. solely application of op193. 

That way, the potion imbiber can attack by script when the target is fully invisible, and manually when the target does something to break simple invisibility. 

I’ll be (was!) the first one to admit that’s not ideal. But IMveryHO dispelling invisibility outright is not the right solution. 

[Bartimaeus]

7 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

Yeah, I thought this was intentional on Demi’s part. How can internally imbibing a potion cause someone’s invisibility to be dispelled 15 feet away from you, allowing them to be attacked by your allies who did not imbibe the potion? It makes more sense for the effect to be personal, i.e. solely application of op193. 

That way, the potion imbiber can attack by script when the target is fully invisible, and manually when the target does something to break simple invisibility. 

I’ll be (was!) the first one to admit that’s not ideal. But IMveryHO dispelling invisibility outright is not the right solution. 

Doesn't really seem fundamentally different to me compared to just one of your casters casting Detect Invisibility and dispelling the invisibility state in much the same way, .

[Lord_Tansheron]

There's a big difference - individual detection doesn't allow party members to target the enemies with spells; dispelling the invisibility does.

I think the issue here, from the sound of it, is that you as the player can't actually see the enemy and it looks weird to have something hitting empty air. Whereas something like True Sight also allows the caster (and only them) to attack enemies as though not invisible, but you the player still actually see the model. Which I guess makes sense from an RP perspective: even if other party members can't see the enemy, the one who does see them can tell them that there's someone/something there.

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Doesn't really seem fundamentally different to me compared to just one of your casters casting Detect Invisibility and dispelling the invisibility state in much the same way

I can see how a spell might affect people around you; plenty other spells do that. I cannot see how drinking a potion might affect people around you; no other potions do that. It’s a pretty big difference. Also, unless my memory is very wrong, the entire design of SR Detect Invisibility is to work like this version of IR Potions of Sight, working for the caster only. (This is distinct from, say, Invisibility Purge or Detect Illusion or Oracle.) The argument that SR/IR invisibility detection should be similar to unmodded Detect Invisibility is not great; this is a mod, it’s meant to be different from the unmodded game. 

1 hour ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

I think the issue here, from the sound of it, is that you as the player can't actually see the enemy and it looks weird to have something hitting empty air. Whereas something like True Sight also allows the caster (and only them) to attack enemies as though not invisible, but you the player still actually see the model.

Actually SR True Sight does not allow the player to see the enemy’s selection circle.* That’s more or less the problem here; as you say, the awkwardness of these spells’ inability to expose the selection circle to the player without utterly dispelling their protection.

* (OK, I think SR True Sight will dispel nearby illusions... but an invisible person can protect their invisibility with SR Nondetection. SR True Sight vs. Invisibility + SR Nondetection behaves just as Lianos posted above: the True Sight caster can target the enemy by script, but the enemy's selection circle is not exposed, so the True Sight caster cannot target them manually.)

Of course, this is a solved problem. Lianos said they are using EE v2.5, so they simply need to install the Tome & Blood component and voilà: Detect Invisibility and True Sight will expose targets’ selection circles to the player, without allowing other party members to attack them.

Edited September 12, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Bartimaeus]

6 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

There's a big difference - individual detection doesn't allow party members to target the enemies with spells; dispelling the invisibility does.

I think the issue here, from the sound of it, is that you as the player can't actually see the enemy and it looks weird to have something hitting empty air. Whereas something like True Sight also allows the caster (and only them) to attack enemies as though not invisible, but you the player still actually see the model. Which I guess makes sense from an RP perspective: even if other party members can't see the enemy, the one who does see them can tell them that there's someone/something there.

I get the point, but I don't use player scripts, which means the description of the potion ("The drinker of this potion is able to [...] see invisible creatures") is simply inaccurate because it does no such thing. Being able to only target enemies via scripts is frankly pretty ridiculous from an intuitive gameplay perspective anyways. While seemingly incongruous behavior, I'd prefer the potion to work as described - it's either that or change the description of the potion. One issue I have with just changing the description is that Detect Invisibility is merely a second level wizard spell, and while the logic for it not straight up dispelling invisibility makes sense in-world, I'm not as sure that it makes sense from a gameplay perspective in not allowing readily available options for something that is pretty needed at various junctions throughout BG1/BG2 (especially if you use SCS where enemies make liberal use of stealth/invisibility).

4 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Also, unless my memory is very wrong, the entire design of SR Detect Invisibility is to work like this version of IR Potions of Sight, working for the caster only. (This is distinct from, say, Invisibility Purge or Detect Illusion or Oracle.) The argument that SR/IR invisibility detection should be similar to unmodded Detect Invisibility is not great; this is a mod, it’s meant to be different from the unmodded game. 

spwi203d.spl (the subspell Detect Invisibility casts every 3 seconds) has a force visible opcode it applies to all enemies within sight, same as I'm contemplating enabling for Potion of Sight. As does spwi609d (True Seeing's subspell that it casts every 3 seconds), so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. Invisibility Purging, in contrast, has a Remove Invisibility opcode which it casts every 3 seconds that removes both invisibility and improved invisibility (except for Mislead nonsense).

Edited September 13, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[Lord_Tansheron]

I am conceptually entirely fine with the potion revealing invisible creatures to the player (and thus the party). It makes as much sense to me as Detect Illusions from thief/monk does, i.e. they're using perception and not magic and yet somehow they are able to communicate that perception to other party members in ways that effectively DISPELS illusions/invisibility. Sure let the potion be a bit more limited (not actual dispel, but everyone gets to see) since you're not rigorously trained in detecting/communicating your detection. But there's no need to make it so complicated you end up with characters clobbering empty air because there's something invisible there. That's just goofy gameplay.

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

I am conceptually entirely fine with the potion revealing invisible creatures to the player (and thus the party). It makes as much sense to me as Detect Illusions from thief/monk does, i.e. they're using perception and not magic and yet somehow they are able to communicate that perception to other party members in ways that effectively DISPELS illusions/invisibility. Sure let the potion be a bit more limited (not actual dispel, but everyone gets to see) since you're not rigorously trained in detecting/communicating your detection. But there's no need to make it so complicated you end up with characters clobbering empty air because there's something invisible there. That's just goofy gameplay.

Great rationale as well, thank you. Though there are those who feel Detect Illusion is completely broken to begin with and should basically never be used, you can still apply the same line of logic to how Detect Invisibility currently works, so it's really not as incongruous as one might think.

[Lianos]

5 hours ago, Lord_Tansheron said:

But there's no need to make it so complicated you end up with characters clobbering empty air because there's something invisible there. That's just goofy gameplay

This. Items and spells should be comprehensible at first go.

Detect Illusion ability is either OP (vanilla, SRR) or completey useless (SR). Given the state of thiefs compared to mages and warriors, Imho it's ok to have the former.