Subtledoc's Random Tweaks

[subtledoctor]

Ideas for Cantrips?

I am migrating some of my other tweaks over to this mod, including cantrips. And now I have some systems and code ready to go that will make an overhaul of the innate cantrip system fairly easy. Which leaves the question of content.

This is the time to throw out ideas for what could be included as cantrips! So far the list looks something like this:

• Drowse (Enchantment): single-target Sleep
• Earthen Grasp (Alteration): single-target Entangle (should this be called Thorn Whip after the 5E spell?)
• Dazzle (Illusion): weaker Color Spray/single-target Glitterdust
• Conjure Rabbit (Conjuration): summon a rabbit for 3 rounds (could also do rat, bat, squirrel...etc.)
• Protective Shell (...Abjuration?) block one attack - basically the same as vanilla Reflected Image
• Deflective Shell (Abjuration): blocks one low-level spell
• Stiffen Bones (Necromancy): single-target Slow (this name sucks, needs a better one
• Magic Bolt (Evocation): lesser Magic Missile
• Anticipation (Divination): ...short-term AC bonus? (This seems uninteresting. And/or overlaps with Shield.)
• Glimpse (Divination): very short (like 1-second) Farsight
• Random Chromatic Orb (needs a name)  (Wild Magic): low-level Chromatic Orb with damage type and secondary effects determined randomly and not scaling
• Wild Surge (Wild Magic): like NRD but you don't choose a spell - just trigger a random surge

All of those are already coded up and in use in one form or another. The Magic Bolt has elemental variations, which may or may not be a good way to go with Evocation cantrips.

What about cannibalizing some 1st-level spells? Rather than being a lesser Color Spray, we could just make Color Spray a cantrip. Also maybe Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp? I think the 1st-level spell list would be okay if we took two or three, and some of those spells are a bit underpowered/underused when vying for a place with Shield and Magic Missile.

Speaking of Shield... maybe that should be a cantrip? The whole "Armor and Shield next to each other" thing has always bothered me. Maybe one of them should drop below 1st level. (Though honestly there is a good case to be made for making Armor a cantrip as well.)

I just googled it, and 5E has some nice stuff to consider:

• Vicious Mockery? (Chance to briefly stun or berserk the target?)
• "Gust?" (Which I take to be like a gust of wind - say, a targeted wing buffet effect.)
• Minor Illusion? (Summon a scary creature - but it gets destroyed - i.e. revealed as an illusion - by a single hit) (or borrow Dancing Lights)
• Expeditious Retreat? (Yes it's in SR but I feel like it is underpowered/underused.)
• Maybe a single-target variant of Faerie Fire? (AC penalty, cannot go invisible)

Any other ideas? I thinking roughly of this: have about 15-20 cantrips, maybe 2-3 from each school of magic. Specialists will start with theirs, mages can pick any two. Then everyone can pick another one at, say, 2nd/4th/6th/8th levels? So you end up with 5-6 cantrips that you can cast at will.

Alternatively, I suppose, we could make all of the cantrips available to everyone. You could prepare 2 or 3 of them, and cast those 2 or 3 at will; and then up to once per day you could switch them out for a different 2 or 3. So this way everyone has access to all the cantrips, but you can only have a couple at you fingertips at any moment. (Kind of like priest spells, I guess.)

Thoughts? Better to learn them forever, and then be stuck with your choice, like sorcerers? Or have access to all and prepare a couple each day, like clerics?

>>> Also: should cantrips live under the innate abilities button, or under the spells button? In my experience, the innates bar often gets very messy in modded games. But the spells button has lots and lots of spells. Not to mention, depending on your install innate HLAs may live there, and it may be weird to have 10th-level spells sitting adjacent to cantrips under that button.

I feel like this could be pretty cool, and once these decisions are made it should not be difficult to set up. So, all input appreciated.

Edited October 3, 2023 by subtledoctor

[moggadeet]

just spitballing here - 

* Stiffen bones - maybe something like "pull of the grave" or "rigor mortis?"

* Random chromatic orb - "chaos orb" maybe? or "chaotic orb," to borrow a name from Pillars of Eternity? (I assume "bouncy ball of doom" is off the table)

* Anticipation - Maybe a one-use block against a damage type of the player's choice, rather than physical damage? sort of a complement/equivalent to protective shell? Or a lesser Shield effect that blocks X amount of magic damage? I love the idea of divination, but it's so, so weak, considering the dearth of divination spells with a save, so anything that makes it not-terrible is exciting.

Armor is a weak enough spell that I could see making it a cantrip, particularly as it will always become obsolete. Shield seems a bit stronger, especially with your sunfire/missile storm tweak installed (shield blocks that too, right? or am I misremembering?) and at least it has a purpose beyond its AC function.

I find myself taking earthen grasp for basically any nonspecialist mage - holding an enemy in place is super useful, especially in BG1. Having free forms of elemental damage strikes me as very, very useful against trolls though - a weak elemental damage spell seems like the kind of situational but useful thing that a cantrip (imo) should be, though I'd worry that it perhaps trivializes spells like Flameblade (or acid/fire arrows, though those are more broadly useful).

Vicious Mockery a la Morte's Litany of Curses sounds fun. Potentially suicidal, depending on the mage, but fun.

Would a cantrip that lowers a specific enemy save be too strong/too specific? Essentially a depowered Doom that only reduces, say, save vs death. Maybe a one-round single-target Silence effect, or a lesser Miscast Magic? For wild mages, a spell that inflicts a low chance of wild surge on another character might be entertaining.

Or like a minor AOE that, on a failed save, reduces enemy THAC0 by 1. Maybe an illusionist cantrip, "dazzling aura" or something?

Would cantrips that offer minor boosts to allies overlap too much with divine casters? I was thinking along the lines of a single-target Bless (aid without the hp), say. Expeditious retreat would be nice to cast on an ally, but a spell that's essentially "on-demand boots of speed" seems a bit much for a cantrip.

[subtledoctor]

After I am leaning toward giving everyone access to all the cantrips, and preparing a few each day. This would look like: an innate ability that triggers a dialogue to prepare ~three cantrips. These would then appear under your spells button. After resting, you can use the innate ability again and change those three. My reasoning is, these spells are so simple and easy to learn that specialty school is meaningless. This is the magic that children can learn, before they begin proper magical training. So you don’t need to be restricted to your specialty. I could see two possibilities for  specialists: 1) they would be mandated to prepare their school’s two cantrips, and then could prepare one more from any school (no opposition); or 2) they could prepare any three cantrips but not the ones from their opposition school. (This would be reactive to changes you make to opposition schools.)

Theoretically, my Combat Skill Proficiencies mod could detect this and allow thieves to learn cantrips in place of/in addition to that mod’s current Illusion Magic skill. 

8 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Stiffen bones - maybe something like "pull of the grave" or "rigor mortis?"

Oh yeah, “Rigor Mortis” is perfect, gonna steal that idea. Yoink! 

8 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Vicious Mockery a la Morte's Litany of Curses sounds fun. Potentially suicidal, depending on the mage, but fun

Well, we can’t implement aggro management, it would have to use current basic opcodes. Maybe something like, Stun for 2 seconds while the target fights to control themselves, then Berserk for ~3 rounds on a failed save. 

8 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Anticipation - Maybe a one-use block against a damage type of the player's choice …

Would a cantrip that lowers a specific enemy save be too strong/too specific?

Only thing is, I don’t love the process of 1) clicking your spells or innate button 2) finding and clicking a spell, and 3) being presented with another range of buttons and finding and clicking the chosen one. It’s annoying in-game, and annoying to code because the subspells all need individualized icons. This may be worth the effort for one or two cantrips but not many. 

Like, maybe most casters could use Magic Bolt/Eldritch Blast, but Evokers only would get a selection of elemental variants. Could be fun for Dynaheir.  

Speaking of Magic Bolt/Eldritch Blast, maybe I can set it up like the current Cantrip Wand, to be a ranged attack rather than a spell you cast. It’s sooo much better for micromanagement, plus I could theoretically graft this attack onto enemy mages so they could use it against you. Would have to carefully set it up to be blocked by Deflection/GOI… and it might be unfair because you could make an attack and cast another spell in the same round. Hmm…

8 hours ago, moggadeet said:

find myself taking earthen grasp for basically any nonspecialist mage - holding an enemy in place is super useful, especially in BG1

Agree. And this brings up a fundamental problem with low-level targeted spells: single-target save-or-suck is generally problematic. Like, Confusion is fine because even though some people will save against it, probably others will not. So against a group, you can expect it yo be partially effective. But how often do you memorize Rigid Thinking? A successful save means a wasted cast. 

I try to deal with this by having some small effect even on a successful save. But that can make these cantrips too good. Like Earthen Grasp, which I use more than almost anything else. Maybe try something weird, and embrace the synthesis of Earthen Grasp and Thorn Whip: call it “Thorn Grasp” and stop movement on a failed save, while allowing movement but doing some damage (1d3?) on a successful save. Direct damage is, after all, something we all accept as not requiring a saving throw. (Imagine you could save to avoid Magic Missile??)

8 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Would cantrips that offer minor boosts to allies overlap too much with divine casters? I was thinking along the lines of a single-target Bless

Like a lesser version of Strength, I guess? Seems reasonable. Could actually maybe work as a Divination cantrip - like a mini True Strike. 

8 hours ago, moggadeet said:

Expeditious retreat would be nice to cast on an ally, but a spell that's essentially "on-demand boots of speed" seems a bit much for a cantrip

Well, the thing is you cannot attack or cast spells while it is active. So the only role would be as a quick “get out of Dodge” panic button. Or, hm, I guess you would use it to kite as well. Okay I see your point.

What about Spell Thrust as an Abjuration cantrip? What I do in some games is move Spell Thrust to 1st level and then use Level 1 Cantrips or the Evermemory ring to basically have unlimited Spell Thrust. But this could be a simpler way to achieve that. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Shadow Ranger]

Cantrips, being what they are, might be a bit too good. Perhaps they should be more of a support/novelty tool? Like, for example, mirroring Tracking, revealing one small portion of the map, granting Quickstride or conjuring some basic arrows?

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Shadow Ranger said:

Cantrips, being what they are, might be a bit too good. Perhaps they should be more of a support/novelty tool? Like, for example, mirroring Tracking, revealing one small portion of the map, granting Quickstride or conjuring some basic arrows?

In a tabletop RPG I would agree. But we don’t really have a true RPG; we have a squad-based murder simulator. Combat is nearly everything in this game. So a lot of spells and abilities and proficiencies from AD&D are simply absent. The AD&D idea of Cantrip was a cool little 1st-level spell that traded power (it had to be less powerful than any other 1st-level spell when doing something similar) for flexibility (it could do anything you can imagine). 

3E turned cantrips into specific spells, with their own spell slots; this was basically just adding a 10th spell level and I find it very boring. 5E takes a more nuanced approach: it makes cantrips usable at will, and thus gives casters something magical to do in any given round that doesn’t deplete their precious spell slots. I think this is a good idea that makes sense with D&D’s general lore - you can learn small magic tricks while a zero-level nobody, before turning into a proper 1st-level adventurer who can cast real magic spells. And it works well in a combat-focused game like BG. My problem is that 5E cantrips are too strong; they usually scale with level and often are as good as 1st- or even 2nd-level spells. 

In BG, I think the context can work with spells as powerful as or less powerful than 1st-level spells, with no scaling. Mages can do mage-y things from the back row even when not using spells. Instead of firing bullets at enemies, a mage can hurl Magic Bolts. (And coincidentally, Magic Bolts do the same damage as sling bullets!)

Consider it from another angle: think of the vanilla Reflected Image spell. A 50% chance to block one attack. What if you could cast this an unlimited number of times? Against a low-level fighter with 1 APR it would block half the hits. So you die slower. Against a fighter with better APR you would die about 25% slower. Against a hasted/specialized fighter or multiple enemies you might die 15% slower. Maybe it blocks the first strike and allows you to cast a spell… but if you want to use Reflected Image again that has to be the spell you cast. And if you are casting RI every round, you lose the numbers game.

So it is handy to have this spell always available, but the ability to cast it repeatedly is not powerful enough to win the fight. In my mind this is a perfect cantrip. I would like to make a creatively large number of fun little spells with exactly this level of utility. (I don’t include RI itself, only because I use Spell Revisions and SR’s version of RI is quite good and worthy of a 1st-level spot.)

[subtledoctor]

Making something that throws like a weapon and hits like a spell is interesting. 

Separately: I think I want to make a single-target version of Faerie Fire that illuminates one target, giving them a 2-point penalty to AC. I also think I want this to dispel invisibility. Which may not do much, considering it is a targeted spell… but with Spell Revisions installed it would let you do stuff like 1) mage casts See Invisible 2) mage hits invisible enemy with this cantrip 3) now cleric can target the enemy with spells.

But 1) should it have a saving throw? And 2) what would it be called? What school of magic should it be in? Necromancy, and call it “Soul Glow?” (There is only one Necromancy cantrip so far.) Evocation and call it… er… maybe “Illuminate?” (There is only one Evocation cantrip so far.)

Finally: pondering a cantrip to give a boost to allies, I thought of a Divination spell that would share the caster’s point of view with an ally, allowing the ally to understand the angles and spacing of combatants better, and thus becoming more accurate. Say, a 2-point thac0 bonus for… 5 rounds? So, like a lesser version of True Strike.

But again: what to call it? “Shared Perspective?” “Angle of Attack?” “Guided Strike?” My ideas all sound lame. 

[Thacobell]

Maybe the fairie fire one can be "Ghost Light"? "Wisp Glow"?
 

[moggadeet]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:47 AM, subtledoctor said:

Well, the thing is you cannot attack or cast spells while it is active. So the only role would be as a quick “get out of Dodge” panic button. Or, hm, I guess you would use it to kite as well. Okay I see your point

yeah, I think the spell as-is has its uses, I was pondering if a version that a mage could cast on an ally would be useful without being too strong. Maybe a few seconds' movement speed boost?

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Separately: I think I want to make a single-target version of Faerie Fire that illuminates one target, giving them a 2-point penalty to AC. I also think I want this to dispel invisibility. Which may not do much, considering it is a targeted spell… but with Spell Revisions installed it would let you do stuff like 1) mage casts See Invisible 2) mage hits invisible enemy with this cantrip 3) now cleric can target the enemy with spells.

In terms of actual naming, maybe "foxfire" (material component for faerie fire)? or "grave light" or "spectral radiance" for necro. Or "baneful light?" For evocation, maybe Flare like the 3e cantrip, which iirc was evocation. Illusion feels like an obvious choice, but I could see necro or evocation as well. As for save/no save, maybe the AC penalty regardless (or a lesser AC penalty) and the other effects on a failed save?

8 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Finally: pondering a cantrip to give a boost to allies, I thought of a Divination spell that would share the caster’s point of view with an ally, allowing the ally to understand the angles and spacing of combatants better, and thus becoming more accurate. Say, a 2-point thac0 bonus for… 5 rounds? So, like a lesser version of True Strike.

Stealing a feat name from KOTOR 2 - Dual strike? Or something like "pack sense" (too druid?) or "strategist's foresight"/"diviner's eyes" or "coordinated attacks."

For necro cantrips, what about something that provides a minor boost to summoned undead? "Sanctified bones" - provides +1 to AC and THAC0 to allied undead. Or a single-target equivalent of hold undead.

Not sure if this is more transmutation or evocation, but maybe a 1-round, single-target spell that adds minor elemental or magic damage to the recipient's attacks?

[subtledoctor]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:06 AM, Thacobell said:

Maybe the fairie fire one can be "Ghost Light"? "Wisp Glow"?

Oo, how about combining them: "Wisplight"

On 10/4/2023 at 7:07 PM, moggadeet said:

maybe "foxfire"

That's also nicely evocative.

On 10/4/2023 at 7:07 PM, moggadeet said:

I was pondering if a version that a mage could cast on an ally would be useful without being too strong. Maybe a few seconds' movement speed boost?

There is a 5E cantrip that does this I think, but the Gust cantrip might cover this ground. Maybe I'll make it like SR Otiluke's Sphere, where enemies get a save but allies don't. So you could raise a strong breeze and blow your ally faster for a moment. Would only work directionally away from the caster, but still could be cool. Would be useful in tight quarters - if someone gets cornered and can't move and is getting clubbed by golems or something, you could quickly knock them free.

On 10/4/2023 at 7:07 PM, moggadeet said:

"diviner's eyes"

That's a good one.

EDIT - 5E has a cantrip called “Guidance” which is a 1d4 bonus on skill checks. I wonder if my thac0 bonus should be accompanied by a ~5-10% bonus to thief skills? OTOH that would kind of step on the toes of Luck. (OTOH again, this very mod has a component to make Luck much better. So maybe not?)

On 10/4/2023 at 7:07 PM, moggadeet said:

what about something that provides a minor boost to summoned undead? "Sanctified bones" - provides +1 to AC and THAC0 to allied undead.

That's a very good idea! Although, it kind of sounds worthy of a spell slot. Maybe bump those bonuses to +2, and this could be a cool ~2nd-level spell...

Edited October 6, 2023 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Here’s a question: who should get cantrips? And how many? I could see something like:

Mages: prepare 4 each day

Specialists: prepare 3 each day

Bards: prepare 2 each day

Sorcerers: prepare 1 or 2 each day

Alternatively, maybe everyone should be able to prepare 3. But maybe sorcerers should get none at all, only give them to book-learners? 

Thoughts? 

(Then there is the question of divine casters… but I don’t even want to touch that yet. They get bonus spells for wisdom, that’s enough for now.)

[subtledoctor]

Lately I’ve been getting really good at making mods that crash the game to desktop. I suppose that’s a good thing, it means I am pushing boundaries. 

EDIT - is opcode 67 in an .EFF, trying to summon a nonexistent .CRE. Fair enough I suppose. The other night I had something crash the game before it even got to the main menu. That was an adventure

Edited October 6, 2023 by subtledoctor

[kijikun]

Very stupid I'm running a fever ask: can vicious mockery have a sound effect like haha or something or something visual so I know my bards sick burn has landed?

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, kijikun said:

Very stupid I'm running a fever ask: can vicious mockery have a sound effect like haha or something or something visual so I know my bards sick burn has landed?

This is a fantastic idea. Maybe that “kick him in the head ‘til he’s dead!” line?

Edited October 17, 2023 by subtledoctor

[Delior]

Hello, I installed the latest version of this mod from Github, and I selected the innate cantrips component and the component to move Spell Thrust to level one.  I rolled a sorceror and upon preparing my first cantrip I was surprised to see Spell Thrust show up in the list.  I am not sure if that was intentional or not (that seems OP to me FWIW), but in any event it did not work.  If I selected to prepare spell thrust, it would just bring up the selection menu again until I picked something else.  Drowse did work when I selected it.  

[kijikun]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

This is a fantastic idea. Maybe that “kick him in the head ‘til he’s dead!” line?

That could work thought some players might hate it.  I know in ee one of the char name sound voices as a 'loser loser loser' voice clip.