Subtledoc's Random Tweaks

[Endarire]

If klatu/Random Tweaks install order is confirmed to need to happen one specific way, I request the Project Infinity install order metadata be added to ensure this install order is enforced.

Thankee!

[subtledoctor]

6 hours ago, Endarire said:

If klatu/Random Tweaks install order is confirmed to need to happen one specific way, I request the Project Infinity install order metadata be added to ensure this install order is enforced.

Thankee!

It’s just one component, though. Putting metadata for the whole mod would cause problems, like leading SDRT to be installed very late after Klatu’s, which means these spell modifications wouldn’t get picked up by other mods that clone or otherwise use spells. (How many kit mods use the “spell_to_innate” function?) Contrarily, If klatu’s is installed too early then something like its Free Action tweak might not cover all instances of Free Action and Hold. 

I’m not sure what the best solution is in the long run, especially given that I don’t think Klatu’s is being maintained. (?) But in the short run, players can install those particular components of Klatu’s (don’t drop equipment when…) early on. 

And if you install Spell Revisions, do not install these components from Klatu’s - they are unnecessary and will only screw things up. 

TBH I think this second point is the more important one. (I still wish Weidu had a command that would prevent a later mod being installed, or at least display a warning. Wisp disagrees and never made this but it would take some pressure off the “compatibility is the later mod’s responsibility” rule. (That rule is fine and dandy until mods installed later stop being maintained.)

Edited June 29, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Mordekaie]

I am planning to use your  randoms tweaks mod  along with your SR fork (v4.19b),... I am wondering if those components of SR a still necessary/relevant  :

10 - Deva and Planetar Animations

20 - Mirror Image Fix - No more protection from AoE spells

30 - Dispel Magic Fix - Before Trials of the Luremaster (cf. TotLM readme).

 

[Mordekaie]

On 6/27/2022 at 11:39 PM, subtledoctor said:

Are you using Spell Revisions? I didn’t think Klatu’s added any kind of Slow effect…

Anyway if you use SR the solution is even easier: don’t install that Klatu tweak. Equipment will not be destroyed with SR. 

For confirmation : I don't need to install the following components form Klat if SR is installed ? :

2080 - Drop Equipment on Disintegration

2090 - Drop Equipment on Petrification

2100 - Drop Equipment on Imprisonment

 

[subtledoctor]

23 minutes ago, Mordekaie said:

I am wondering if those components of SR a still necessary/relevant  :

10 - Deva and Planetar Animations

No idea. I don't ever install that one.

21 minutes ago, Mordekaie said:

20 - Mirror Image Fix - No more protection from AoE spells

I honestly don't know?  Does MI still block AoE spells after eight patches from Beamdog?? It can't, can it? I would love it is someone could give a definitive answer as to whether this component is still needed, because if it's not needed then it should be disabled for the new engine.

23 minutes ago, Mordekaie said:

30 - Dispel Magic Fix - Before Trials of the Luremaster (cf. TotLM readme).

Ditto?

14 minutes ago, Mordekaie said:

For confirmation : I don't need to install the following components form Klat if SR is installed ? :

2080 - Drop Equipment on Disintegration

2090 - Drop Equipment on Petrification

2100 - Drop Equipment on Imprisonment

Correct on the first two. I don't really know about Imprisonment. Probably should ask this stuff in the  SR forum since other people familiar with SR might know  more answers.

[Mordekaie]

1 hour ago, Mordekaie said:

30 - Dispel Magic Fix - Before Trials of the Luremaster (cf. TotLM readme).

TotLM readme recommands to install SR before TotLM :

"Spell Revisions component "Dispel Magic Fix" interferes with the special dying behavior of revenants and trolls, making them unkillable by normal means. To work around this issue, install that component before the main component of this mod."

Anyway i don't know if the Dispel Magic Fix from SR is still relevant ?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Mordekaie

[argent77]

18 minutes ago, Mordekaie said:

TotLM readme recommands to install SR before TotLM :

"Spell Revisions component "Dispel Magic Fix" interferes with the special dying behavior of revenants and trolls, making them unkillable by normal means. To work around this issue, install that component before the main component of this mod."

Anyway i don't know if the Dispel Magic Fix from SR is still relevant ?

Yes, it is still relevant.

[DavidW]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Does MI still block AoE spells after eight patches from Beamdog?

No.

[Bartimaeus]

Quote

Deva and Planetar Avatars (may be used with or without the main component)
This component updates the avatars of the celestials summoned by HLAs to take advantage of 1PP Attachable Wings as seen here.

Mirror Image Fix (may be used with or without the main component)
This patch fixes mirror images so they no longer protect from AoE spells such as Fireball. Previously, such spells would likely not damage targets with Mirror Image and would instead only destroy a single mirror image - with this component, no mirror images will be destroyed and such spells will simply pass through the effect entirely.

Dispel Magic Fix (may be used with or without the main component)
This patch fixes the chance to dispel magic to match the spell's description (so there is at least a marginal chance of dispelling effects of a higher-level mage) and corrects conceptual problems caused by the automatic dispelling of all magically created items. More info about its outrageous old behaviour can be found here.

More specifically, Deva and Planetar Avatars changes them to have normal demihuman animations (elven, IIRC), but with wing graphics added from 1pp: it's purely a matter of taste. I personally much prefer the original celestial animations, so I do not ever install this component (not that I uh, ever actually play ToB and see them mind you, but...). Mirror Image Fix sets some bit flag on all the effects of a preset list of spells, said flag is labelled as "Bypass Mirror Image" in DLTCEP, while I have no idea if said flag functions the same for EE games. Dispel Magic Fix does...something to improve the mathematical formula of how dispelling works to be much more fair, but IIRC on a technical level just sets some number for parameter 2 of the dispel spells to effect that change somehow in a pretty non-transparent way.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Mirror Image Fix sets some bit flag on all the effects of a preset list of spells, said flag is labelled as "Bypass Mirror Image" in DLTCEP, while I have no idea if said flag functions the same for EE games.

We're still in the wrong  thread, but since you're here, question: why is SR copying in AoE spells without the "Bypass Mirror Image" flag set, and then offering an optional component to fix them? Especially now when the EE games have actually (mostly?) fixed AoE spells, this creates the possibility that someone will install SR's main component and neglect to install the MI Fix (as I stupidly did in my current game), which means a bunch of perfectly fine spells will end up broken after SR is installed.

Why not just fix the spells SR copies in? Then the MI Fix component can be limited to the pre-EE engine where perhaps some spells/projectiles still need fixing...

tagging @grodrigues as well. This sounds like a change that should be made to the 4b19 repo... unless I'm missing something?

EDIT - or just have the main component auto-install the MI Fix component. It sounds like it is basically mandatory... in which case, the mod should not make it optional.

Edited July 29, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Mordekaie]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

More specifically, Deva and Planetar Avatars changes them to have normal demihuman animations (elven, IIRC), but with wing graphics added from 1pp: it's purely a matter of taste. I personally much prefer the original celestial animations, so I do not ever install this component (not that I uh, ever actually play ToB and see them mind you, but...)

It seems it is not just cosmetic.

This component also adjusts their weapons:

• Planetar and Fallen Planetar - Vorpal Greatsword +3: 2d6+3 slashing damage, 5% chance target must save vs. death at -6 or die
• Deva - Heavy Mace of Disruption +3, Stunning: 1d10+3 crushing damage, 50% chance target must save vs. spell or be stunned for 2 rounds, undead creatures must save vs. death or be destroyed
• Fallen Deva - Flaming Long Sword +3, Bleeding: 1d8+3 slashing damage, 1d8 fire damage, 1hp/round bleeding damage for 5 rounds.

At least this was is found in the readme b/c i haven't seen myself one yet too.

[Bartimaeus]

2 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

We're still in the wrong  thread, but since you're here, question: why is SR copying in AoE spells without the "Bypass Mirror Image" flag set, and then offering an optional component to fix them? Especially now when the EE games have actually (mostly?) fixed AoE spells, this creates the possibility that someone will install SR's main component and neglect to install the MI Fix (as I stupidly did in my current game), which means a bunch of perfectly fine spells will end up broken after SR is installed.

Why not just fix the spells SR copies in? Then the MI Fix component can be limited to the pre-EE engine where perhaps some spells/projectiles still need fixing...

tagging @grodrigues as well. This sounds like a change that should be made to the 4b19 repo... unless I'm missing something?

EDIT - or just have the main component auto-install the MI Fix component. It sounds like it is basically mandatory... in which case, the mod should not make it optional.

I don't know; perhaps it was a contentious addition when it was first introduced for oBG2 (people wanted their Mirror Image cheese)? It's always seemed to be a no-brainer to install to me, personally. For the most part, I just let these things be, really.

1 hour ago, Mordekaie said:

It seems it is not just cosmetic.

This component also adjusts their weapons:

• Planetar and Fallen Planetar - Vorpal Greatsword +3: 2d6+3 slashing damage, 5% chance target must save vs. death at -6 or die
• Deva - Heavy Mace of Disruption +3, Stunning: 1d10+3 crushing damage, 50% chance target must save vs. spell or be stunned for 2 rounds, undead creatures must save vs. death or be destroyed
• Fallen Deva - Flaming Long Sword +3, Bleeding: 1d8+3 slashing damage, 1d8 fire damage, 1hp/round bleeding damage for 5 rounds.

At least this was is found in the readme b/c i haven't seen myself one yet too.

For some reason, I have a memory telling me that these creatures' weapons are already modified by SR to be like this regardless of whether you install the component or not...OR possibly I made that the case in SRR? I'm not a hundred percent certain, someone would have to check out their weapons in a standard SR install without the celestial component installed to be sure.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Endarire]

@subtledoctor
'Sup, doc?

These are questions, suggestions, and comments for a variety of your mods, and for the sake of convenience I combined them into this one post.  Apologies if you'd prefer they be spread among the relevant posts.

Faiths & Powers AND Tome & Blood
How compatible are the multiclass kits and sphere system with mods that let characters change kits mid-game that aren't NPC EE, such as More Style for Mages and Kit Tomes?  You seemed interested in fixing corner cases with Mystics accidentally knowing all spells, meaning this is an opportunity to add compatibility if these mods aren't already compatible.

NPC EE
Why does this mod let multiclassed characters have only than one kit, like Berserker/Mage for Fighter/Mage instead of Berserker/Enchanter?  I wasn't sure if this was a technical limitation, but if it isn't a technical limitation, may we get an option to allow one kit per base class?

May we get the ability to apply the effects of NPC EE to player-made characters like CHARNAME and other player-made characters via 'Create Party?'

Will to Power
What say you to adding cross-mod content with Monastic Orders of Faerun (latest version download link) to make a Psionic Fist, a Monk/Psion that acts as a Thief/Cleric kit?

Why install this mod before Might & Guile?

Finally for Now
Thankee!

Edited August 2, 2022 by Endarire

[subtledoctor]

19 hours ago, Endarire said:

How compatible are the multiclass kits and sphere system with mods that let characters change kits mid-game that aren't NPC EE, such as More Style for Mages and Kit Tomes?

FnP sphere spells are granted at level 1, via opcode 171. If you get a bunch of spells from being a priest of Lathander, and then change to a priest of Cyric, you will keep all your Lathander spells and get the Cyric spells in addition. NPC_EE has code specifically to remove FnP spells, to get around this. Other kit-changing mods, like Kit Tomes, do not. So you will end up with a bunch of extra spells. MSfM should work fine, IIRC.

19 hours ago, Endarire said:

Why does this mod let multiclassed characters have only than one kit, like Berserker/Mage for Fighter/Mage instead of Berserker/Enchanter? 

I cannot state this clearly enough: you can only, ever, have one single kit. If you jump from one kit to another, then you lose your earlier kit. Look at the .CRE file format, scroll down to 0x0273: there is only one field for Class. Scroll to 0x0244: there is only one field for Kit. Each of those can only have a single value; if you change that value, the new value becomes true and the old value becomes false. You can only have one class,* and you can only have one kit.** Period, end of story.

* Contrary to how it sounds, multiclass characters only have one class. "Fighter/mage" is one class - not a combination of two classes. If you dual-class from fighter to mage, after you gain your first-class levels back your class is simply "mage," not fighter. The only thing left you have from being a fighter is a .CRE flag at 0x0010, and some residual weapon proficiencies.

** The multikit mod purports to create combinations of multiple kits, and in fact the QD_Multi functions can do the same thing quite easily. But the end result is not multiple kits - it is a single kit pretending to be multiple kits. It is the kit version of multiclasses.

You can only have one kit. So NPC_EE lets you choose one kit.

19 hours ago, Endarire said:

May we get the ability to apply the effects of NPC EE to player-made characters like CHARNAME and other player-made characters via 'Create Party?'

1) Why? Custom-made characters get to use the nice UI menus to do everything NPC_EE can do...

2) If you want to do it anyway (expect some cheat-y bugs relating to weapon proficiencies) just CLUA yourself a copy of D5_CKIT.ITM - or steal it from a joinable NPC.

19 hours ago, Endarire said:

What say you to adding cross-mod content with Monastic Orders of Faerun (latest version download link) to make a Psionic Fist, a Monk/Psion

Doubt it.

19 hours ago, Endarire said:

Why install this mod before Might & Guile?

I don't remember.

Edited August 2, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Endarire]

Thankee!