SubtleMods: Magic Battles Revised - streamlined rules for mage duels

[Chosen]

I have few other questions: Which version of dispel magic enemies will actually use? I know they don't use party unfriendly spells but does enemy clerics or demons will fire mini-breach type or old remove magic? (assuming default options) If I am getting it right installing Polytope's Revised Dispel Magic before without spell lvl limit should use %5 per caster lvl for dispel magic and remove magic should become new mini-breach. Would party friendly dispel option overwrite polytope's changes? Sorry for hail of questions by the way. Thanks for your efforts I like your mods a lot.

[subtledoctor]

EDIT - sorry, it turned into a long post. The tl;dr is, this should work great with SCS AI and IWD spells. To minimize risks, set Spell Thrust to 3rd-level when installing.

On 12/9/2021 at 9:12 PM, Chosen said:

I am planning an EET run with SRR+IRR+SCS(and tons of quest mods).  This mod seems quite interesting and it is just the thing I want to try in a new run. If possible I want to use divine spells from IWD too. Problem is I am unsure how they would interact or which order I should install them. Does install order of SCS:IWD divine spells-IRR-SRR-MBR-EET:end-SCS:main works? How would things like Entropy shield/Shield of Archons/Impervious Sanctity of Mind(Spell shield version) would interact with this mod? Can SCS AI handle this? I am open to ideas or other mod combinations too.

It is designed to work just fine with SCS - in fact when making the versions of the spells installed by this mod, I used versions that had SCS installed as a starting point. So the spell defenses like Minor Deflection, for example, sets spell states and proficiencies so as to function with the SCS version of Detectable Spells, which should allow the AI to handle spell battles with this mod as well as it handles the normal or SR systems. Moreover, as noted, this mod lets lower-level magic attacks like Spell Thrust and Secret Word be more effective against high-level spell defenses like Greater Deflection. I have tailored the DS spell states to allow the AI to take advantage of this. (Though, there has not been much playtesting.)

Apparently, according to some discussion above, SCS may patch these spells while this mod installs them in what should be their final configuration. So this should be installed after SCS. However, apparently SCS will not patch them if SR or SRR is installed first. So if playing with SR or SRR, then you can install this before SCS.

Entropy Shield, as installed and modified by SCS (v33) in my current game, is supposed* to protect you from Breach. Entropy Shield has the "Spell Protection" secondary type, so in this way it works for priests pretty much the same as Deflection works for mages: it protects you from Breach but can be dispelled by Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, etc.

Impervious Sanctity of Mind, as installed and modified by SCS,* casts a subspell, DW#ISSS.spl, which is a clone of the Spell Shield wizard spell. Because this subspell has the same secondary type as Spell Shield, it will work just fine with this mod. (However, if this mod is installed after SCS it should modify that subspell... I'll get to that and issue an update. But in the meantime it should work perfectly fine with the SR-MBR-SCS install order.)

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* SCS seems to have a bug - at least, the version in my game, which is v33. Entropy Shield and Impervious Sanctity of Mind are supposed to give you opcode 206 protection against various spells. But it looks like it uses opcode 318 instead. It's been a while since I messed with this stuff but IIRC cannot work in the way SCS is trying to use it here. So, in my game at least, Entropy Shield will not protect against Breach. I don't know if this is actually a bug in SCS, or something that changed these spells in my personal game; and I don't know if it was a bug in SCS v33 that has been fixed in v34. But, just an FYI. I'll post something about it on the SCS forum.

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One important thing to note: this mod can change Spell Thrust into a 1st-level spell so you can cast it more easily. In my experience this is balanced just fine. What the mod does:

• give the old Spell Thrust a new IDS name (e.g. WIZARD_SPELL_THRUST_OLD)
• add the new 1st-level Spell Thrust
• give the new Spell Thrust the old IDS name (WIZARD_SPELL_THRUST)
• set the new 1st-level Spell Thrust to be known and memorized by all enemy mages

Theoretically, this means the AI should be fine. Any scripts operating via IDS name and calling for the wizard to cast Spell Thrust will find that the new spell corresponding to "WIZARD_SPELL_THRUST" is known and memorized, and should therefore successfully cast the spell. Any scripts operating via RES (filename) will find that, if the mage had SPWI321 memorized before this mod was installed, they will still have SPWI321 memorized and therefore will cats it. It will be cast as a 3rd-level spell instead of a 1st-level spell, but from the player's perspective it should not make a noticeable difference. I tried to cover both bases to make sure enemy wizards can successfully and effectively use Spell Thrust against the player.

In practice: in my current BG2EE game I am not seeing many wizards cast Spell Thrust. I am not sure what is going on - it's possible the enemy wizards I am facing are simply high-level and are casting better spells like Pierce Magic instead. But it's also possible there is a problem.  It probably needs to be tested in BG1EE to be sure. If you don't want to risk it, then make sure you set Spell Thrust to be a 3rd-level spell in the mod's settings .ini file before you install it. (Edit - I'm making that the new default behavior in the next update of the mod.)

Also: from a post above it sounds like there might be a small bug in the install process. I'll check it out when I can.

Edited December 22, 2021 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

17 hours ago, Chosen said:

I have few other questions: Which version of dispel magic enemies will actually use? I know they don't use party unfriendly spells but does enemy clerics or demons will fire mini-breach type or old remove magic? (assuming default options)

Apparently SCS only uses Remove Magic, never Dispel Magic, so enemies would use the AoE mini-Breach that removes one combat protection and one specific protection.

17 hours ago, Chosen said:

If I am getting it right installing Polytope's Revised Dispel Magic before without spell lvl limit should use %5 per caster lvl for dispel magic and remove magic should become new mini-breach.

Yes. I think? But if you use Polytope's mod to only dispel up to 6th-level spells, I think this mod will undo that and allow Dispel to work against all spells. But the % chance should follow the much-improved numbers from Polytope's mod.

17 hours ago, Chosen said:

Would party friendly dispel option overwrite polytope's changes? Sorry for hail of questions by the way. Thanks for your efforts I like your mods a lot.

Setting Dispel top be party-friendly should only change the targeting. So in this case it should turn Dispel Magic into Polytope's version of Remove Magic. (SCS scripts will probably still not cast it, though.)

Edited December 10, 2021 by subtledoctor

[mickabouille]

Hi, I have a failure when trying to install v 1.03 (on bg2ee, linux, no other mod installed).

I attached the debug file (zipped) and weidu.log.

setup-magic_battles_revised.debug.zip weidu.log

[subtledoctor]

Thanks @mickabouille those two errors are fixed in v1.05.

On 12/2/2021 at 4:56 PM, Jarno Mikkola said:

Is there a chart that shows what protections and removal spells can be used against each others ? There's a very old thread somewhere where this is shown for the vanilla spells...

No. But it is probably not hard to describe. Imagine a level 20/20 cleric/mage with all possible defenses, from the inner-most to the outer-most layers:

1. Stoneskin, PfMW, Pro Fire, Chaotic Commands, etc. (These are Specific Protections and Combat Protections.)
2. Minor Spell Deflection (This is a Spell Protection)
3. Minor Globe of Invulnerability (Spell Protection)
4. Spell Deflection (Spell Protection)
5. Dispelling Screen* (This is a Dispel Protection)
6. SI: Abjuration* (Spell Protection)
7. Globe of Invulnerability (Spell Protection)
8. Entropy Shield** (Spell Protection)
9. Greater Spell Deflection (Spell Protection)
10. Shield of the Archons (Spell Protection)
11. Spell Trap (Spell Protection)
12. Spell Shield (This is a Spell Shield)
13. Impervious Sanctity of Mind (Spell Shield)

( * only one of these will be in the game, depending on whether you installed SR)

( ** assuming Entropy Shield actually works)

When you attack the enemy's defenses, the defenses are removed in the reverse of that order, i.e. from the highest number first. Now:

Spell Thrust and Secret Word can remove 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, and 13. (Not Dispelling Screen, not Shield of the Archons, not Spell Trap.) They do not affect Shield of the Archons. They are blocked by Spell Trap.

Pierce Magic and Khelben's Warding Whip can remove 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13. (Not Dispelling Screen, Not Spell Trap.) They are blocked by Spell Trap.

Ruby Ray, Pierce Shield, and Spellstrike can remove 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13. (Not Dispelling Screen.)  Nothing blocks these, though Spell Shield will absorb them.

Breach, Dispel Magic, and Remove Magic can remove 1 and 5 (Dispelling Screen absorbs the first one, then successive castings actually remove protections.) These are blocked by 2, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11. (They do burn off "spell levels" of protection from Deflections, though, like any other spell.)

Anything marked as a "Spell Protection" blocks Breach and Remove Magic, except Globes of Invulnerability. Globes do not block Breach because they do not block 5th-level spells. They may or may not block Dispel/Remove Magic, depending on your chosen .ini options. (Default settings are, they do not.)

So if you really did face an enemy with all 13 of those protections, the correct procedure would be:

• Spellstrike
• Breach or Remove Magic
• Breach

Or:

• Pierce Shield
• Spell Thrust/Secret Word/Pierce Magic/Warding Whip/Ruby Ray
• Spell Thrust/Secret Word/Pierce Magic/Warding Whip/Ruby Ray again, until there are no spell protections left
• Breach or Remove Magic
• Breach

Or:

• Spell Thrust (or Secret Word or Pierce Magic etc.)
• Ruby Ray
• Spell Thrust/Secret Word/Pierce Magic/Warding Whip/Ruby Ray
• Spell Thrust/Secret Word/Pierce Magic/Warding Whip/Ruby Ray again, until there are no spell protections left
• Breach or Remove Magic
• Breach

Edited December 14, 2021 by subtledoctor

[Jarno Mikkola]

That's 13 protections. What about invisibility, improved Invisibility(talking about the non-Armor Class part), mass invisibility, etc ? Including Project Image, Simulacrum+the same spells as above.. or simulacrum that had itself imprisoned.

After all, in the vanilla game, you cannot use breach to invisible targets, as it needs a specific target. The SCS removes that restriction, IF you set the .ini so that it does. Before you install it. The SR goes around this by making the visibility of the targets counter caster dependent, as in it make them able to be targeted by their foes with an effect that removes all invisibility's not_able_to_target buffs against caster... essentially. But that can have bad side effects, such as layered protections building layers that won't be able to be removed without TRIPPLE spellstrikes or just pure god magics: ctrl+Y.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Jarno Mikkola

[Relay]

@subtledoctordo you have the improved visuals portion deprecated for some reason? or can I install that manually? This system is much cleaner when you can keep track of all the layers of their defense visually.

Edit: Sorry didn't realize you had changed it all to one module. Thanks for getting this out there!

Edited December 15, 2021 by Relay

[subtledoctor]

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

What about invisibility

Uh, then you should probably dispel their invisibility? Or see through it? (I have a mod for that as well.) Not sure what that has to do with this thread... the point here is to describe modifications to the spell protections system, not to school people in the basics of how to play BG2. Pretty sure there's a wiki for that.

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

mass invisibility, etc ? Including Project Image, Simulacrum+the same spells as above.. or simulacrum that had itself imprisoned.

Uh...

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

The SR goes around this by making the visibility of the targets counter caster dependent, as in it make them able to be targeted by their foes with an effect that removes all invisibility's not_able_to_target buffs against caster... essentially. But that can have bad side effects, such as layered protections building layers that won't be able to be removed without TRIPPLE spellstrikes

I hate to engage further, but I feel I should note that I think you are incorrect. (Assuming I understand what you are saying, which... I really don't.) I don't know what you're talking about with "bad side effects" - SR let's you see right through invisibility, which means there are no "layers that won't be able to be removed." (Though, not to pat myself on the back too much, but my mod linked above does it better.)

[Jarno Mikkola]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

(Though, not to pat myself on the back too much, but my mod linked above does it better.)

Hmm, and you have not included it into this mod because of ? Or have you and you are not just telling us ? And such.

Quote

Not sure what that has to do with this thread...

Cause if you are revising the magic battle system, it might be inducive to actually gather it all under one mod, and not 20 something other mods, that have different results with different install orders and you like yours best, of course. Call it what you like, but this is a spell change mod.

And the mod inquestion brings so many different kits into the game that it hardly seems to be optimal to install it to a larger contincency of other mods as well, when considering install order. And yes, I know you can install mods in multiple runs, but we don't want to enforce that. So it would be better to have those in separate mods.

This is all, because I don't want to make a(-nother) 300 page long install chart to bookend my desktop, so I can get the mage battle system I want to make, and that fails every six months cause one of the mods was upgraded or missing and all that jazz.

Also, I should mention that you probably will want to make sure that a Abjurer can also remove the spell protections too, even when he does not specialize on the spells that can.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Jarno Mikkola

[mickabouille]

Hi, thank you for your correction.

I hope I don't appear annoying, I really don't mean to

Along with your recent change on this line

https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/magic_battles_revised/blob/8fd33b6a9b52e501c6824226b0f06424bce1a479/Magic_Battles_Revised/MBR_settings.ini#L14

 OUTER_SET  spell_thrust_level                =    3

you may want to modify this line

https://github.com/UnearthedArcana/magic_battles_revised/blob/8fd33b6a9b52e501c6824226b0f06424bce1a479/Magic_Battles_Revised/lang/english/setup.tra#L76

@12321 = ~Spell Thrust
Level: 1

To have the description match the actual spell level (at least in the default situation)

[subtledoctor]

2 hours ago, mickabouille said:

you may want to modify this line

I think that new description doesn't get copied in if you keep the spell at level 3, which is the new default. So it should be no problem. (Of course if you install the spell at level 2 it would be off...)  But I'll double check that. Good catch.

3 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

the mod inquestion brings so many different kits into the game that it hardly seems to be optimal to install it to a larger contincency of other mods

Pretty sure one of the first things mentioned in the Readme of the mod in question is "you can install as many or as few components as you like - everything is independent, nothing depends on anything else." So you can quite easily skip all those kits etc.

The mod in question has all sorts of spell tweaks, such as tweaks to invisibility, tweaks to illusionary clones, tweaks to Identification, tweaks to sequencers, tweaks to familiars, et cetera. It is a large bag full of many different things, all generally related to wizard abilities. This mod, on the other hand, is solely about Revising Magic Battles, and therefore it only has content directly related to magic battles. Invisibility is an ancillary system; no matter what form of invisibility you use, it will function the same way with regard to this mod. It is parallel to the changes in this mod, but untouched by them. So there is no reason to consider it here.

Not to mention the confusion and mess that would result for players and mod managers if we just constantly lifted components from one mod and added them to another, willy-nilly. That is a bad suggestion. Bad imp, bad! 

3 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

I should mention that you probably will want to make sure that a Abjurer can also remove the spell protections too, even when he does not specialize on the spells that can.

I don't understand this at all.

[Jarno Mikkola]

3 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

Invisibility is an ancillary system; no matter what form of invisibility you use, it will function the same way with regard to this mod. It is parallel to the changes in this mod, but untouched by them. So there is no reason to consider it here.

So you are SURE, that if a enemy mage casts invisibility on itself + other spells, it won't be protected from the party's dispelling the invisibility by any of the other spells by ? Say, Spelltrap or globe of invulnerability ? And that the invisibility WILL be dispelled by any of the normal anti-illusion spells ? As in, it's it's own fucking layer on top of you firm concreate dome.

And about the abjurer transmuter, see he can cast transformation spells(haste etc), but none of the abjuration spells(protection and protection removal spells), which everyone but the Ruby Ray of Reversal, and Dispel/Remove Magic are, of the counter spells in the list above, and if the party has only one wizard, specifically a transmuter specialist, they are not going to be able to overcome any of the magic battles with anything but waiting and twittling their thumbs. Well, they will likely have priests, but that's besides the whole point.

Or if the opponent has just upped his defences with: Globe of Invulnerability(6), Invisibility(2), Spelltrap(9), and PfMW(6). How would you deal with him ? In your system. Without any other mod. And those last until they are dispeled/removed in any order you like, so long as the protections will be dispelled by the what ever one throws at it, and so on, and is able to be targeted.

First by non-transmuter. This is my point of actual intrest.

And then by a transmuter. This is just a supposition that if... not really that important.

It took the opponent 4 spells, so ...and technically, 23 levels of spells.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Jarno Mikkola

[Relay]

I'm noticing some weirdness with spell deflections when they're being burned down. On player characters minor spell deflection will absorb the correct number of spell levels and then dissipate, but on enemies its not. The spell is absorbing the correct number of spell levels and then they become vulnerable to spells, but the animation is not ending, making it impossible to tell when the deflection has been used up.  

Edited December 16, 2021 by Relay

[mickabouille]

Quote

I think that new description doesn't get copied in if you keep the spell at level 3, which is the new default. So it should be no problem. (Of course if you install the spell at level 2 it would be off...)  But I'll double check that. Good catch.

I must admit I didn't do an install to check that.

[subtledoctor]

7 hours ago, mickabouille said:

I must admit I didn't do an install to check that.

Should be easy enough to see in the code, I'll check when I get a chance.

9 hours ago, Relay said:

some weirdness with spell deflections when they're being burned down. On player characters minor spell deflection will absorb the correct number of spell levels and then dissipate, but on enemies its not. The spell is absorbing the correct number of spell levels and then they become vulnerable to spells, but the animation is not ending

Sounds like you have SCS installed? And I would guess this happens only when enemies get pre-buffed with the Deflection - not when they cast it during the normal course of combat. If my hypothesis is right, then the SCS clones of the Deflection spells are being changed in some way that alters the spell in the resource field of the first opcode 201 effect.

The spell identified there is cast when deflections are burned away (this is a feature in EE v2.5+). So for example, when Minor Deflection (SPWI318) is exhausted, it casts SPWI318B. That spell has an opcode 321 effect to remove all lingering effects of SPWI318. So the visual disappears. This mod sets both SPWI318 and DWSW318 to cast SPWI318B when exhausted, and sets SPWI318B to remove all effects from both SPWI318 and DWSW318. It sounds to me like your version of DWSW318 is not set to cast SPWI318B when exhausted; or, that your version of SPWI318B is not set to remove effects from DWSW318.

That could happen under some circumstances if you install SCS after this mod. The more I think about it, the more I think this should really be installed after SCS.

...

17 hours ago, Jarno Mikkola said:

So you are SURE, that if a enemy mage casts invisibility on itself + other spells, it won't be protected from the party's dispelling the invisibility by any of the other spells by ? Say, Spelltrap or globe of invulnerability ? And that the invisibility WILL be dispelled by any of the normal anti-illusion spells ? As in, it's it's own fucking layer on top of

I can't be sure of what other changes players make to their game. But invisibility will work as invisibility works, regardless of this mod. It is always its own layer on top of this stuff - sort of. I'm not aware of any situation or mod loadout in which spell protections ever block divination attacks. If you're concerned about some specific vanishingly rare niche case, then please feel free to mention it. But the general answer is: yes, invisibility is something you're going to have to deal with, same as always. It's a part of the game, and this mod doesn't change that. Deal with it the way you always do.

Edited December 16, 2021 by subtledoctor