Hakeashar / Nishruu

[CamDawg]

Was this a lazy shortcut to block spell damage? Possibly, but there's not enough to say that definitively. When in doubt, err on the side of no changes.

[Luke]

8 minutes ago, CamDawg said:

When in doubt, err on the side of no changes.

OK. I'll document it then...

In particular, they're immune to all but magic damage and poison damage (since these two damage types cannot be set in the CRE file itself...)

[DavidW]

Just take the documentation from IWDEE (which actually mentions the energy damage). Then we get all languages simultaneously. There is code in the FP to autoextract a string from all the different tlk files in a game - hang on a sec and I'll run it for that string.

[DavidW]

OK, @35786 in lang/%LANGUAGE%/copy_from_iwdee.tra is the IWDEE description for Summon Nishruu.

[Luke]

16 hours ago, DavidW said:

Just take the documentation from IWDEE (which actually mentions the energy damage). Then we get all languages simultaneously. There is code in the FP to autoextract a string from all the different tlk files in a game - hang on a sec and I'll run it for that string.

Thanks, but I don't think we should use the documentation from IWDEE as is, mainly because:

1. I'd like to state something more about energy damage – i.e., something like (emphasis is mine):
   • "The nishruu is completely immune to energy damage (all but magic and poison damage),..."
     • Now that I think of it, they should probably be immune to poison damage, but that's a separate issue...
2. I'd like to clearly state that they can be killed by Dispel/Remove Magic – i.e., something like (emphasis is mine):
   • "The nishruu is completely immune to magic (except for Dispel/Remove Magic)..."

Edited June 7, 2022 by Luke

[DavidW]

So this is a broader issue about the extent to which descriptions should be updated.

My own view is that a Fixpack should not be writing its own text for descriptions (or anything else) except as an absolute last resort, because

1) It is really stretching 'developer intent' to actually write new text.

2) It localizes the Fixpack to those languages in which we can provide our own translations.

Since IWDEE's version of the Summon Nishruu description is demonstrably what the developers actually intend the description to look like, I think there is a very strong developer-intent case for using it, even before we get on to the translation issue.

But clearly there's room for discussion here.

[Luke]

OK, some more undocumented inconsistencies.

• At least on BG:EE, the Nishruu is indeed immune to Poison (though not fully immune to it – it's just immune to the Poison opcode, but its actual Poison Resistance is not set to 100), whereas the Hakeashar is vulnerable to it
  • As a result, I think the Hakeashar should be immune to Poison so as to match its weaker counterpart...
• At least on BG:EE, the Nishruu can see through invisibility, whereas the Hakeashar cannot. Intended or not...?

[DavidW]

That goes back to oBG2, and I agree: surely a bug in both cases. (FWIW there is no listed difference in the PnP material: both creatures are listed as immune to illusions.)

[Luke]

23 hours ago, DavidW said:

That goes back to oBG2, and I agree: surely a bug in both cases. (FWIW there is no listed difference in the PnP material: both creatures are listed as immune to illusions.)

Fine, I'll make sure they're fully immune to Poison and can see invisible creatures...

Separately, what can you tell me about their memorized spells (2x Magic Missile, 1x Stinking Cloud, 1x Melf's Acid Arrow, 1x Agannazar's Scorcher, 1x Ghost Armor, 1x Lightning Bolt)? Intended or not? I mean:

1. unless I'm missing something, PnP states nothing about them being able to cast such spells
2. more importantly, they're not scripted to cast them (see "nishrusu.bcs"), so it might be another copy/paste issue...

[DavidW]

Things like that are almost always leftover relics from a copy/paste.

[Luke]

18 minutes ago, DavidW said:

Things like that are almost always leftover relics from a copy/paste.

So, do you think we should remove them...?

Like I said, the player can use them whereas the AI cannot (because they're not scripted to cast them)... Also, they do appear to be out of place for such creatures...

[kjeron]

3 hours ago, Luke said:

Separately, what can you tell me about their memorized spells (2x Magic Missile, 1x Stinking Cloud, 1x Melf's Acid Arrow, 1x Agannazar's Scorcher, 1x Ghost Armor, 1x Lightning Bolt)? Intended or not? I mean:

1. unless I'm missing something, PnP states nothing about them being able to cast such spells
2. more importantly, they're not scripted to cast them (see "nishrusu.bcs"), so it might be another copy/paste issue...

It's a relatively common, unused spell setup. Djinni/Genie have it as well, and most of them are not scripted to cast any.

[DavidW]

5 hours ago, Luke said:

So, do you think we should remove them...?

Like I said, the player can use them whereas the AI cannot (because they're not scripted to cast them)... Also, they do appear to be out of place for such creatures...

I’d be inclined to, yes.

[Luke]

@CamDawg

Now that I think of it, there is probably another issue with these creatures...

"The hakeashar is completely immune to magic, and magic will actually heal it."

As of now, this block

Spoiler

IF
	SpellCastOnMe([ANYONE],0)
THEN
	RESPONSE #100
		ApplySpell(Myself,CLERIC_CURE_LIGHT_WOUNDS)  // SPPR103.SPL (Cure Light Wounds)
END

 

returns true for all spells, including innate and spell-like abilities such as 'BLACKGUARD_ABSORB_HEALTH' and 'SUN_SOUL_SUN_SOULRAY'... Intended...?

Fixing this would require a bit of spell restructuring (i.e. something like patching all SPPR and SPWI files by adding an op326 effect as first effect casting 'CLERIC_CURE_LIGHT_WOUNDS'...?)

Is this out of scope...?

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, Luke said:

Fixing this would require a bit of spell restructuring (i.e. something like patching all SPPR and SPWI files by adding an op326 effect as first effect casting 'CLERIC_CURE_LIGHT_WOUNDS'...?)

Is this out of scope...?

I don't see any evidence that the effect is only supposed to work on wizard and priest spells, and not on all magic effects. The Sun Soul and Blackguard powers here are clearly magical.

There are a (very) few effects that get cast through .spl that clearly aren't magical, but it seems to me way overkill to patch every spell in the game just to block those edge cases.