need feedback for weapon proficiency groupings

[CamDawg]

Arriving a bit late, but I've always been uncomfortable with the tendency to lump scimitars in with katana/wakizashi just because they're curved. Scimitars--at least as depicted in-game--are heavier at the point, making them an effective chopping and stabbing weapon. I'd be curious if we have anyone here who's actually used a scimitar could shed a little light on this. I suspect it would be something like a rapier vs. a long sword, where they're both similar on the surface, but used in very different ways.

However, if it has to be limited to 10, I suppose shortcuts need to be made somewhere.

[subtledoctor]

There's a conceptual issue that needs to be disentangled here. What, exactly, should the effects of weapon specialization be?

The base game basically gives +thac0, +damage, and +APR. Then there are level-based APR and thac0 bonuses, and class/kit-based thac0 and damage bonuses, etc. Aren't these things stepping on each others' toes?

Like, the Swashbuckler gets bonuses to thac0 and damage as it levels up. At 10th level, isn't that basically the same as having mastery? (In every weapon!) Likewise for Archers. So when going back to nuts & bolts and thinking "how might one set up a weapon proficiency/combat skills system?" we have weapon specialization, which improves thac0, damage,  and possibly APR; and we want to have a "melee training" skill to represent the  Swashy class ability, and a "ranged accuracy"  skill to represent Archers' class ability, and maybe a feat for improving APR... but that just gets to the same result from different directions.

I feel like I'm getting further into the weeds, here, instead of out of them. (Not that I want anyone to stop discussing! Even if it seems like I am debating or disagreeing with someone, what's really happening is that person is engaging me. And I find it super valuable to clarify my ideas on how to change the game.)

20 hours ago, Endarire said:

how should we focus our discussion?

See the above parenthetical. The more debate, in any direction, the better

5 hours ago, polytope said:

I'd honestly prefer weapon specialization in game to be pretty specific to the weapon trained with

I hear that, and I don't disagree with it. But giving every weapon its own proficiency means there are no extra proficiencies to use for other skills. (Because Detectable Spells long ago gobbled up all the free proficiencies. Maybe it's worth addressing that... but it is probably a different discussion.)

Possibly we might be able to achieve something like this. This just occurred to me now, I'm typing off the top of my head, so bear with me, but: in order to gives innate abilities for dialogues to select combat skills, the mod will need to apply a permanent repeating .eff to detect increases in certain proficiencies. With that repeating .eff in place anyway, we could:

• tag each weapon with a spellstate corresponding to its vanilla individual proficiency
• then collapse them into broader proficiency categories
• you can spend pips to become proficient or maybe even specialized in categories, in the proficiency level-up screen, as usual
• you can put pips into another proficiency, called "weapon mastery" or "weapon focus"
• that will open a dialogue allowing you to choose which weapon to master...
• and that will unlock a conditional spell that will respond to the weapon's spellstate and provide unique specialization benefits via the repeating .eff

Something like that? Make "specialization" and "mastery" two different things - allow "specialization" in weapon groups (chosen via the usual "spend a pip" model), and let select kits/classes gain "mastery" in individual weapons (selectable by dialogue after putting a pip into the "Weapon Mastery" skill).

EDIT - note, in practice this would be a pretty major simplification compared to the base game. It would have three steps instead of five steps (proficiency, specialization, mastery) and you could take the 2nd and 3rd step out of order (you could have specialization but not mastery, you could have mastery but not specialization, or you could have both).

It could work! But would require more coding and be a somewhat substantial architectural change. Which is why I want to hash out ideas like this now, in a discussion thread, before getting too far into the actual coding.

I have to say, I'm really tempted to mess with thac0 tables as well, and set up a mild version of 5E's "bounded accuracy" design principle. Like, instead of just having thac0 progress naturally and boosting with with weapon mastery (the base game), maybe thac0 progression should be more stunted, and player could have more more ways to boost it via combat skills: weapon group specialization (2 points?), individual weapon mastery (2 points?), melee training (say 2-5 points, depending on how many pips we allow to be spent), fighting style (1-2 points?), and possibly a fighting posture (1-2 points)... investing in all of those could get you a cumulative thac0 bonus of 7 to 12 points. Compared with the 4-6 points that you can get in the base game. It might be worth slowing down base thac0 progression, limiting the best thac0 scores to warriors who really invest in all aspects of melee combat. Give warriors the vanilla cleric thac0 progression, give priests and rogues the vanilla thief progression, and leave wizards as they are. Maybe?

Edited September 10, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Endarire]

I like unbounded accuracy because I like always hitting.  I disliked 5e's rolling system because it was too dependent on rolling well to succeed for anything.

[Pecca]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:48 PM, subtledoctor said:

Yes. Three problems with that:

1. HLAs come every level and we want combat skills to be limited to one every 2-3 levels.
2. The HLA screen can only show a limited number of abilities... I think? I know it can scroll now, but  I think it is still limited to 24 entries. I have >30 combat skills to choose from. Not every class/kit will have access to all, but when you add ~8 actual HLAs it's just too limiting.
3. IIRC the "minimum level" for HLAs does not actually work - it is only for the vanilla HLA spells added to multiclasses, to prevent someone who cannot cast 9th-level spells from getting a 10th-level spell  they don't have any slots for. My recollection is that normal HLAs on single-class characters, the min_level field is simply ignored.

I have sort of solved #1 - I've figured out how to give HLAs every 2nd or 3rd level. But even there, that means you would continue gaining HLAs that slowly even at epic levels - I don't think you can change the rate of aqcuisition. And #2 and #3 are still problems. I think any workarounds would be at least as difficult and clunky as using proficiencies or dialogues.

To state it very briefly, I've considered five ways to achieve this sort of thing:

1. Feats via Kjeron's spell-learning UI
2. Repurposing the HLA system
3. Pure dialogue system
4. Pure proficiency system (with feat chaining/dependency, see the Skills and Abilities mod for an example)
5. Hybrid proficiency + dialogues

Basically I'm leaning toward #3 or #5 as the ideal solution. A pure dialogue system has by far the most flexibility, but it also involves major complexity and makes it quite difficult to modify. Might & Guile actually used to use this for a while, until it switched over to Kjeron's UI mod. Now I can modify every kit's feat selection from a single .2da table. If I had lots of free time it might be interesting to write a function that could accept a bunch of arbitrary conditions and stitch together a dialogue automatically. That could have lots of uses, for things both small and large (including possibly rewriting the entire HLA system) and it could similarly be controlled from a fairly simple table or something.

#5 is fairly straightforward: you have proficiencies, and you have skills with feat-chaining where  it makes sense - e.g. the Swashbuckler could put five pips into the Dodge skill, and get five successive AC bonuses; thieves could put multiple pips into the Backstab skill, and get successive backstab bonuses. Simple. This system only gets clunky when you spend pips to get optional skills. Like, there will be a 'Combat Postures' skill (maybe need a new name for that) which will let you choose from Leadership (like a bard aura), Grappling (chance to Hold target when attacking), Parrying (chance to block one attack each round by damage type), Missile Snaring (block one missile attack each round), Dirty Fighting (chance to apply a random debuff to the target) and Spell Evasion (IWD Evasion). These are equal alternatives for what kind of tactics you want to employ, so it doesn't make sense to chain them. Instead the game will give you an innate ability for each point you spend on this proficiency, and you can use that ability to open a dialogue and learn a combat posture. It's a bit clunky for the player, but not that bad... and the dialogue itself only needs six options and no conditions aside from class/kit, so it will be very simple to make or modify on my end.

So this is what I'm looking at. ~10 actual weapon proficiencies, ~10 fighting styles and individual skills with chained benefits, and ~5 skill groups containing about 5 skills apiece. So potentially 45 actual combat skills, which range from learning once to investing up to 5 pips in.

UI modding might offer a relatively easy solution to otherwise difficult problem. For example, you could have a new button inside level-up screen that would be enabled by level condition. It would open HLA window with table filtered by a variable exposed to the UI (index, keyword...), so it would show your skills and the original HLA window would get them filtered out.

You might also enable some respec, or alternative redistribution of pips and things like that...

[polytope]

14 hours ago, CamDawg said:

Arriving a bit late, but I've always been uncomfortable with the tendency to lump scimitars in with katana/wakizashi just because they're curved. Scimitars--at least as depicted in-game--are heavier at the point, making them an effective chopping and stabbing weapon. I'd be curious if we have anyone here who's actually used a scimitar could shed a little light on this. I suspect it would be something like a rapier vs. a long sword, where they're both similar on the surface, but used in very different ways.

There is the same problem in vanilla with ninjato sharing a proficiency with scimitar of course, although from what I can see those swords were even straighter than the katana.

Without having in depth knowledge of the styles I'll say this much: Katana are usually wielded with both hands gripping the hilt (obligatory counterexemplary reference to Musashi's school and Iaijutsu technique of drawing and cutting in the same single handed motion) whereas scimitars and tulwars are generally used with a buckler in the offhand. The problem is that katana in game are definitely depicted as single handed swords. Katana are also straighter as I mentioned and come to a definite chisel point for thrusts.

Curved single edged swords have some commonalities in that parrying is usually done with the thick back, double edged swords try to check blows with the central spine, also straight swords are better for piercing (although contrary to common belief having two edges versus one doesn't matter much) and double edged swords can make reverse cuts with less rotation of the wrist and shoulder (I'm honestly not sure how much this actually speeds things up). Curved swords are indeed specialized choppers and the debate goes back to at least >400 BC when Xenophon noted cavalry make better use of the curved kopis than the straight xiphos.

I personally wouldn't "lump" them together either, my own (dated) mod of related weapon proficiency just notes that there's enough similarity that specialization in one type of backsword grants proficient use of the others, while high mastery grants specialist benefits, but in no case does the user gain full benefits with a weapon they didn't specifically train for.

13 hours ago, subtledoctor said:

giving every weapon its own proficiency means there are no extra proficiencies to use for other skills. (Because Detectable Spells long ago gobbled up all the free proficiencies. Maybe it's worth addressing that... but it is probably a different discussion.)

FWIW none of my AI scripts assume detectable spells, for this reason among others, but it's unlikely we'll see an SCS overhaul regarding it.

[subtledoctor]

On 9/10/2022 at 11:37 AM, CamDawg said:

Arriving a bit late, but I've always been uncomfortable with the tendency to lump scimitars in with katana/wakizashi just because they're curved. Scimitars--at least as depicted in-game--are heavier at the point, making them an effective chopping and stabbing weapon.

Oh definitely different. Insofar as the form shares some similarities (single edge, with a curve for better slicing) I figure it’s something like, you are trained to use sabers, and in the course of that training you are exposed to other cultures’ variations on the theme (see these scimitars from the south, see these katanas from the east), and the basics of how their use differs. I could expect it would be a bit more probable that training in sabres would cover that sort of thing than training in short swords or bastard swords. 

Because again, it’s not necessarily that training in one weapon makes you proficient with another; it’s that you can be trained in both. Going back to the 2E rules: there, each weapon has its own proficiency, but you can spend pips efficiently to be trained in groups of them. Like, a katana and a wakizashi are completely different in form and use; but was there ever a samurai who trained with a wakizashi to the exclusion of the katana? Of course not. A samurai would develop both distinct skills in the same course of training. 

As to why there are a bunch of foreign scimitars and katanas floating around Amn, but no actual sabers? (A gazillion halberds but no pikes or glaives? No one-handed spears at all, even though it’s one of the oldest and most basic weapons known to man?) That’s on Bioware. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Here's where my head's at right now - this is a preliminary outline how how I would allocate proficiencies:

STAT:    Combat Skill:
  89  =  Large Swords: bastard sword + greatsword
  90  =  Medium Swords: long sword + short sword
  91  =  Single-Edged Swords: katana + scimitar + ninja-to (?)
  92  =  Small Blades: dagger + darts
  93  =  Chopping Weapons: axe + hammer
  94  =  Spiked Weapons: flail + morning star + mace
  95  =  Simple Bludgeons: club + staff
  96  =  Polearms: spear + halberd
  97  =  Bows
  98  =  Crossbows
  99  =  Slings
  100 =  Weapon Mastery (choosable for up to 5 individual weapons)
  101 =  Weapon Speed (+.5 APR, choosable several times depending on spec/mastery APR bonuses)
  102 =  Dodge (AC bonus, choosable up to 5 times (Swashy))
  103 =  Melee Training (thac0 (+damage?) bonus, choosable up to 5 times)
  104 =  Ranged Accuracy (missile thac0+damage bonus, choosable up to 5 times)
  105 =  Throwing Attacks (thac0 bonus for thrown darts/daggers/axes/hammers)
  106 =  Set Snares (for thieves, instead of getting them via CLAB table)
  107 =  Physical Fitness (dialogue to choose one of ~7 health feats)
  108 =  Fighting Postures (dialogue to choose one of ~7 stances/styles)
  111 =  2-Hand Weapon Style
  112 =  Shield-Fighting Style
  113 =  Single-Hand Style
  114 =  Dual Wielding
  115 =  Miscellaneous Skills (dialogue to choose one of ~7 random feats)
  134 =  Magical Skills (dialogue to choose UMD or one of ~7 illusion spells)

Physical Fitness feats:
 - Toughness (10% physical DR)
 - Weatherproofing (10% elemental DR) (okay I need a name for this one)
 - Health Conditioning (+5 hit points)
 - Intestinal Fortitude (extra chance to save vs. poison/disease)
 - Unflagging Determination (extra chance to save vs. sleep/paralysis/fear/stun)
 - Quickstride (toggle movement speed bonus)

Fighting Postures:
 - Leadership (like an always-on bard song)
 - Parry [slashing or piercing or crushing or missile] attacks
 - Fighting Dirty (chance to apply random penalty on hit)
 - Spell Evasion (IWD-style evasion of magical projectiles)
 
Miscellaneous Skills:
 - Lore Bonus
 - Tracking
 - Flaming Weapon
 - Smoke Bomb/Grease Jar
 - Escape Artist (chance to get free whenever bound/webbed/entangled)
 - Slippery Mind (extra chance to save vs. charm/confusion/feeblemind/maze
 - Luck Bonus
 - Psionic Wild Talent

Magical Skills:
 - Use Magical Device (scrolls + wands)
 - Reflected Image
 - Color Spray
 - Blur
 - Glitterdust
 - Knock
 - Luck
 - Sanctuary
 - Shadowstep
 - ... (other spells suitable for trickster/small-time illusionists...?)

 

Hmmm, looking at this now, I just remembered I wanted to move backstab progression out into this Combat Skill system. But there are no more proficiency stats available. To do that I would have to either:

1. Free up a proficiency, i.e. drop from 11 to 10 weapon groups
2. Use a detectable Spells proficiency that seems like it wouldn't cause trouble (maybe CLERIC_REGENERATION? What is that used for?)
3. Combine Backstab Bonus and Set Snares into a single proficiency and let the player choose which one to improve via dialogue (but that would make developing your trap skills a binary choice vs. developing your backstab skill, and you could only put 5 pips total toward them)

[Endarire]

For proficiencies, how did you handle things with feats in Might & Guile?  That sort of system may work well for this proficiency system.

[subtledoctor]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:25 PM, Endarire said:

For proficiencies, how did you handle things with feats in Might & Guile?  That sort of system may work well for this proficiency system.

MnG Feats is its own distinct system. This will be an update to that, putting feats and proficiencies into a unified system using the same currency (pips).

Edited September 18, 2022 by subtledoctor

[subtledoctor]

Hmm, after a little investigation, it seems that Detectable Spells uses stat 124 "CLERIC_REGENERATION" for the sole purpose of allowing non-joinable NPCs to check whether they already have a regeneration effect active, so that they don't cast Regeneration again until the original one ends. Stuff like this:

IF
	GlobalTimerNotExpired("castspell","LOCALS")
	!GlobalTimerNotExpired("castspell","LOCALS")
	HaveSpell(CLERIC_REGENERATE)  // SPPR711.SPL (Regeneration)
	CheckStatLT(Myself,60,SPELLFAILUREMAGE)
	HPPercentLT(Myself,80)
	!CheckStatGT(Myself,0,CLERIC_REGENERATION)
THEN
	RESPONSE #100
		SetGlobalTimer("castspell","LOCALS",ONE_ROUND)
		Spell(Myself,CLERIC_REGENERATE)  // SPPR711.SPL (Regeneration)
END

That makes me think that it would actually be okay to use this proficiency for party members!

Heck, now that I think about it, that might be true for a whole slew of DS stats. CLERIC_ARMOR_OF_FAITH, PROTECTION_FROM_EVIL, CLERIC_BLADE_BARRIER, CLERIC_PHYSICAL_MIRROR, WIZARD_MISLEAD, CLERIC_FREE_ACTION, CLERIC_DEFENSIVE_HARMONY... these seem like they would only be used similar in the fashion of "check whether I have this effect active, so that I don't waste a spell." I'll have to run some searches through the extant scripts to check. But if they are similar, then the only interference that could happen from letting these be player-facing proficiencies combat skills would be if they are used in player scripts. I'll have to install some player scripts...  I guess that means "Ease-of-Use" scripts from SCS and the new "Powergaming Scripts" by @morpheus562.

Because if I could utilize some of these Detectable Spells stats... I could make this happen with eight of them,  and as it happens there are eight stats that I just mentioned that seem to have minimal interference. Then I could make this idea happen without changing any weapon proficiencies at all! (Except one. I would probably still combine long and short bows. Maybe maces and clubs as well...)

Also, theoretically, as I mentioned earlier, another option is to simply change the way these DS stats are used. I could convert these eight stats into eight spellstates, and patch the spells and scripts that use them. Eight such changes is really not that much... but decompiling and patching every .BCS script in a heavily modded game might make for a rather long install time. Hmmm...

EDIT - CLERIC_PHYSICAL_MIRROR seems to be used in scripts to evaluate whether to attack enemies with ranged weapons. A spellstate could still be substituted, but OTOH if I am going to do such a thing, I would rather limit it to really self-contained stats like CLERIC_REGENERATION.

EDIT 2 - I don't see the WIZARD_MISLEAD stat used anywhere in my current install...

Edited September 18, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Guest morpheus562]

I'll say from my scripts perspective, I create and use many new spell states. If you do take any DS away, I can easily do quick checks on my stuff and be able to use alternate spell states, my preference, for tracking purposes.

[subtledoctor]

1 hour ago, morpheus562 said:

I'll say from my scripts perspective, I create and use many new spell states. If you do take any DS away, I can easily do quick checks on my stuff and be able to use alternate spell states, my preference, for tracking purposes.

Okay I have a new idea to find a middle ground. If we don't combine too many proficiencies, then we don't need a separate "Weapon Mastery" skill for individual weapons. (Though I still think that was a cool idea). And we can get rid of the "Hurled Weapons" skill. (That idea was nice, but not really necessary.) So  we could put it together like this:

Quote

 - 89 = bastard sword + longsword (they're functionally identical in-game anyway)
 - 90 = greatsword
 - 91 = short sword
 - 92 = axe
 - 93 = flail
 - 94 = katana
 - 95 = scimitar
 - 96 = dagger + dart
 - 97 = war hammer
 - 98 = spear + halberd
 - 99 = staff
 - 100 = club + mace (they're functionally identical in-game anyway)
 - 101 = bows
 - 102 = xbow
 - 103 = sling
 - 104 = rapid attack
 - 105 = melee training
 - 106 = ranged accuracy
 - 107 = dodge
 - 108 = physical fitness
 - 110 = fighting postures
 - 111 = 2HW
 - 112 = SnS
 - 113 = SWS
 - 114 = DW
 - 115 = backstab bonus
 - 124 = set snares
 - 127 = misc skills
 - 134 = magical skills

That only needs a few weapon combinations (long + bastard sword, dagger + dart, spear + halberd, club + mace, and long + short bow). And it only needs three proficiencies from Detectable Spells: 110 (ARMOR_OF_FAITH) and 127 (WIZARD_MISLEAD) are completely unused in several of my installs, and 124 (CLERIC_REGENERATION) is only used in the way I described above. So the regeneration stat would be the only one that needs changing. If this ends up being the way I do it, if and when I end up getting it done, I could let you know how to react to it (basically, checking for this mod component and creating a REGENERATION spellstate for this purpose). And this will probably be best installed so i can handle it as well from this end.