How cheesy is this? Baldur's gate 1

[Guest Morgoth]

Is it cheesy to leave imoen behind and go alone killing Ankheg and Basilisk, then going back to get Imoen? mmmm

[KainenMorden]

In my opinion, no. You're just not using a party member that could get killed more easily in that situation. 

Cheese to me is exploiting certain flaws in the rules/bugs. 

Some would say pre buffing is cheesy, using a fireball wand while wearing armor is cheesy, etc

I say just have fun and play how you want and don't worry about those things.

[subtledoctor]

I mean, you're the one that has to look her in the eye afterward.*

* Does it help that her eyes are 1 pixel x 1 pixel?

Yes. Yes it does.

Realistically: I honestly think you rob yourself of fun by doing this, though. Being over-leveled is akin to turning down the difficulty setting. Don't get me wrong, if you want to play one of those games where you just get a kick out of gibbing mobs with the flick of a finger, that's fine, we all need that every now and again. But if you want to actually get a  bit of thrill from facing simulated danger in these games, the surest way to do that is to turn down the XP accrual so that the challenges you face are not beneath  you.

That said, I also firmly believe 1st level is for NPCs. You should level up to 2nd basically as soon as you kill those rats in the barn. (IWD does a really good job of giving you things to do at 1st level and introducing you to the locale, but then making sure you are 2nd level by the time you properly start your quest.) So when I play, I:

1. pick up Imoen (    )
2. "mistakenly" head south to Beregost instead of north to FAI;
3. do some Beregost quests (but take no companions) and pick up some material to turn in at FAI;
4. go north, collecting the ogre's belt and Joia's ring along the way;
5. turn in a bunch of quests at the FAI
6. THEN introduce myself to J&K.

By this time you and Imoen should be 2nd level. (Also I usually set up J&K to be ~5th-level dual-classes who are just starting out in their 2nd class, so they have like 40 hp.)

Then I get rolling  down to Nashkel.

EDIT - neither here nor there but:

13 minutes ago, KainenMorden said:

Cheese to me is exploiting certain flaws in the rules/bugs.

I would probably put any method to kill greater basilisks at 1st level into this category...

In my new install I'm adding @Angel MIH enhancements to basilisks and the Mutamin map. I'm excited to see how dangerous it is now... definitely won't be going there at 1st level.

Edited October 31, 2022 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder. That's why you should never fight groups of beholders without some cheesy trick.

A couple things to note about delaying that initial meeting with Imoen:

- Unlike other NPCs in BGEE, Imoen actually has two different starting versions that can appear. If you've leveled up, you'll get her level 2 version instead of her level 1 version. 4 points on the d6 roll for level 2 hit points, and her level 2 skill investment is evenly split between Move Silently and Find Traps. (This is controlled by NPCLEVEL.2da)

- Installing SoD messes up her script, removing the standard joining trigger for her to gain XP. Without SoD, you can have her join as a level 2 thief with 32K XP. With SoD, that same situation will have her join as a level 2 thief with 1304 XP. (This will be fixed in the EE Fixpack when that comes out, and other mods fixing it may already exist.)

Edited October 31, 2022 by jmerry

[ahungry]

I would say it's more meta-game than cheese - in a real D&D session (or a real adventure) would you leave behind a companion to boost your own xp quicker?

No, you would adventure out as a group (unless you never wanted her, or had an RP reason to drop her) and if you happened to find xp heavy mobs, lucky you.

I still used to do this quite often, now due to hating the level 1, I just leave spell/trap xp at bg2 levels with EET so I can end up "boosted" to level 3 or so by the time I hit nashkel mines, without having to grind mini quests/mobs, or go to "hot" xp spots (the "BG 1 Vanilla Progressive xp rate always seems to stay at like 40 xp per task for me, even at end of bg1").

I think the new approach feels more natural - I get a slight xp ramp up in early game that tapers off by mid bg1, in exchange, I don't feel like I'm adjusting my playstyle/progression to hunt heavy xp areas (meta gaming) or avoiding grouping my teammates.

[Quester]

Poor beholders, someone should wipe the cheese from their eyes. 

[jmerry]

1 hour ago, subtledoctor said:

That said, I also firmly believe 1st level is for NPCs. You should level up to 2nd basically as soon as you kill those rats in the barn. (IWD does a really good job of giving you things to do at 1st level and introducing you to the locale, but then making sure you are 2nd level by the time you properly start your quest.) ...

By this time you and Imoen should be 2nd level. (Also I usually set up J&K to be ~5th-level dual-classes who are just starting out in their 2nd class, so they have like 40 hp.)

You can also add some starting XP by editing STARTARE.2DA. Start at 2000, and any single-class character other than a mage (that starts solo) will be level 2 by the time they're done with the Candlekeep chores. Or whatever amount feels right here.

On Jaheira and Khalid ... obviously, Jaheira would be a Fighter -> Druid in this setup. What class combination do you go with for Khalid, with his canonical status as a single-class Fighter?

[Endarire]

I agree with the common sentiment of finding low levels generally icky, which is why I normally rushed Durlag's Tower solo, gained a buncha levels, looted the place, then went about the rest of BG1.  (Being a solo Sor/Wiz helped!  Alleluia!)  In our family's next game (EET this time), we have a route planned for efficient early game EXP gain not reliant upon rushing Durlag's Tower to get us the level 6+ versions of recruitable NPCs.

I also agree that being more powerful lowers the difficulty.

I propose that Khalid be a Fighter/Mage because it seemed fitting that he be wed to a Fighter/Druid.

I also propose that being or feeling "competent" is subjective in what it entails, but being or feeling incompetent is generally icky.  (I don't mean properly challenged, but like 'This felt like a waste of time.)

Having played and GMed various D&D games and editions, trying to apply the expected behavior of a tabletop game to a video game just doesn't work.  Video games normally allow do-overs, just like in BG, and the games are built with this assumption in large part because there's no human GM handling things.  Computers are by their very nature logical and unemotional based entirely on whatever programming was given them.  They can only adapt based on whatever input they've been given.  In contrast, humans are normally quite adaptive, and adaptation is a human specialty!

Video game code is totally OK with killing or chunking PCs or otherwise giving game overs.  Human GMs much more rarely let this stuff happen because no character to play by a player normally means his boredom & disengagement with the possibility of the GM losing this player.  Game makers can reduce the pain of this scenario by reducing or minimizing the pain and lost progress of a failure/game over state.

[subtledoctor]

7 hours ago, jmerry said:

obviously, Jaheira would be a Fighter -> Druid in this setup. What class combination do you go with for Khalid, with his canonical status as a single-class Fighter?

Ya F->D for Jaheira. For Khalid, last game I made him a cleric 5->fighter. But I never got around to getting him back in the party after Nashkel, so I never saw his cleric abilities.    Next game, I might do the same, or maybe a thief -> fighter, or maybe just a ranger. We’ll see how I feel when I get there. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by subtledoctor

[jmerry]

Hmm ... this got me thinking. How would people feel about a tweak that boosted experience in the Candlekeep tutorial segment?

Option 1: Each chore is worth 400 XP instead of 50. 2445 XP for doing all the chores and killing the two chumps. Single-class characters that aren't on the mage table reach level 2 if they complete everything. Thieves might be able to make level 3 by unlocking things with their skills.

Option 2: Each chore is worth 800 XP instead of 50. 4845 XP for doing all the chores and killing the two chumps. All characters gain at least one level if playing solo, and most gain multiple levels.

Option 3: Start with 2000 XP. 2345 XP for doing all the chores and killing the two chumps. Most single-class characters are level 2 straight out of character creation.

Option 4: Start with 4500 XP. 4845 XP for doing all the chores and killing the two chumps. All characters start above level 1, and most gain multiple levels.

Or maybe for the ones adjusting chore XP, I have those grant XP to everyone in the party instead of just a lump sum, to be friendlier to multi-character runs.

[subtledoctor]

How about option 5:  get a 2,000 quest XP reward after the Sarevok ambush cut-scene. That kind of trauma is character growth, and character growth gets you XP at the tabletop, no?

Counterpoint: you did just run away and hide, and wake up the next morning scared and alone. It might be a bit weird to get a XP 'reward' for that...

I really like option 1 above and I think it would be an unmitigated improvement to the game, which would make the beginning 45 minutes of gameplay better and yet have basically zero long-term consequences. It would make the beginning more like iWD, which as I've said is very good, definitely one of the better game intros I've played.  OTOH... it still wouldn't be anywhere near as good as IWD. So how about:

Option 6: I've been turning an idea over in my head to improve the beginning of BG1: what if we wrote a bunch of very small quests, that could take place in and around the Candlekeep grounds, that would replace the existing dumb Candlekeep chores? Each one would give you about 2,000-2,500 XP - just enough to reach level 2 to show that you aren't some rank 12-year-old noob, but a teenager who has actually done some apprentice work in your chosen profession. And that would be the key: there would be ten different quests, but you would only be able to do one of them, corresponding to your class.

• Fighter: Jondalar has you do some training, or something. Kill Reavor's rats, an homage to Morrowind?
• Thief: Winthrop asks you to steal some stuff from Reavor's storeroom.
• Cleric: face down a skeleton in someone's basement.
• Paladin: something involving a moral quandary.
• Mage: I don't know. But you get the point.

Et cetera. I simply don't have the time to create this sort of thing, but there are not technical issues standing in the way and  I think something like this be a marked improvement. Just to give a bit more flavor to your origin and your class choice and explain your skills a bit. What if we got ten modders to write up one quest each? I could do one of them, surely. Probably? I've never done a quest mod but this seems like an awfully easy way to start. And it would be a cool community-contribution project, like the old one-day NPCs and Iron Modder stuff they used to do! A new, small, collective Gibberlings3 mod!

But I guess that would be ambitious. Failing that I like option 1.

Edited November 1, 2022 by subtledoctor

[Thacobell]

19 hours ago, jmerry said:

You can also add some starting XP by editing STARTARE.2DA. Start at 2000, and any single-class character other than a mage (that starts solo) will be level 2 by the time they're done with the Candlekeep chores. Or whatever amount feels right here.

Oh dang, that's a good idea.

[Guest Morgoth]

Another question: do you think Imoen would actually enter "private" houses to lockpick chests and wardrobes, without taking anything but only for the curiosity of what's inside? Because I kinda envision her doing so , but maybe it's the PP in me.

[jastey]

15 minutes ago, Guest Morgoth said:

do you think Imoen would actually enter "private" houses to lockpick chests and wardrobes, without taking anything but only for the curiosity of what's inside? Because I kinda envision her doing so

I can imagine that, too.