SI: Abjuration blocks Breach

[gatperdut]

As the title says, I was running some tests on both Lavok and my own characters, and they cannot be breached until SI: Abjuration is removed. Whether it's cast from memory or a scroll is irrelevant. 

Now, I *think* that is a bug. I'd swear that was never the case before, and the readme doesn't seem to mention anything about it.

 

[Daulmakan]

12 minutes ago, gatperdut said:

As the title says, I was running some tests on both Lavok and my own characters, and they cannot be breached until SI: Abjuration is removed. Whether it's cast from memory or a scroll is irrelevant. 

Now, I *think* that is a bug. I'd swear that was never the case before, and the readme doesn't seem to mention anything about it.

Breach is an Abjuration spell, that is kinda the point (it was always this way IIRC). You can use Spellstrike or Ruby Ray of Reversal.

[gatperdut]

Common sense would agree with you, but I think SI Abjuration protects you mainly from Dispel/Remove Magic and stuff like Imprisonment. Breach is a Magic Attack which shouldn't be affected by it.

Incidentally, Spell Thrust would be enough to dispel it (because it's a level 5 spell).

[Daulmakan]

2 minutes ago, gatperdut said:

Common sense would agree with you, but I think SI Abjuration protects you mainly from Dispel/Remove Magic and stuff like Imprisonment. Breach is a Magic Attack which shouldn't be affected by it.

Incidentally, Spell Thrust would be enough to dispel it (because it's a level 5 spell).

"Magic attack" is a category you made up just now. Breach is a spell like all the others. If you install the relevant component, you can allow Breach to affect Liches and Rakshasas (they are otherwise immune to it).

Spell Thrust is also an abjuration spell, so, same point as before.

[gatperdut]

I definitely didn't make up the Magic Attack bit - I took from the wiki, and I've seen it used multiple times. 

Also, on that last point, I'm certain you are wrong. Spell Thrust will take down SI, it even says so on the description of the spell.

[subtledoctor]

42 minutes ago, Daulmakan said:

"Magic attack" is a category you made up just now.

No, MAGICATTACK is a secondary type, one of the fields in the SPL file. And opcode 204, which grants school-based spell immunity, does not block spells with the MAGICATTACK secondary type. In the unmodded game Breach has this secondary type, and bypasses SI:Abjuration. (All of the spells like Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic etc. also have the MAGICATTACK secondary type and those also bypass SI:Abjuration in the unmodded game. It basically only blocks Dispel/Remove Magic, not much more.)

When SCS is installed, I believe Breach gets a new secondary type, "BREACH." In which case it would indeed be blocked by SI:Abjuration. I do not know, however, whether @DavidW intends Breach to be blocked by SI:Abjuration, or if this is an unanticipated side-effect of a change he made for other reasons. My guess is that it is intended - it mirrors how Breach bypasses Spell Deflections and Spell Turning in the unmodded game, but cannot bypass them when SCS is installed. I supposed you are meant to remove the Spell Immunity with a Spell Thrust etc. before being able to Breach your target.

Edited January 18 by subtledoctor

[Daulmakan]

My bad, then.

[gatperdut]

I've been re-reading some threads in discord I just remembered about and I'm seeing the error of my ways too - they mention that SI Abjuration does indeed block Breach. Though they all included "iirc" in the phrasing

So I guess we wait for DavidW. 

[Jarno Mikkola]

19 minutes ago, subtledoctor said:

When SCS is installed, I believe Breach gets a new secondary type, "BREACH." In which case it would indeed be blocked by SI:Abjuration. I do not know, however, whether @DavidW intends Breach to be blocked by SI:Abjuration, or if this is an unanticipated side-effect of a change he made for other reasons. My guess is that it is intended - it mirrors how Breach bypasses Spell Deflections and Spell Turning in the unmodded game, but cannot bypass them when SCS is installed. I supposed you are meant to remove the Spell Immunity with a Spell Thrust etc. before being able to Breach your target.

It is very much intended behaviour, and the Spell Thrust is the counter to SI:Ab and other such protection spells (read Spell Deflections and Spell Turning)... and then you need to see the mage(remove invisibility or other stuff,) after which you can breach. Or just use MORE force...
Which then is canceled by the wizard having layers of other protections like Contingency... that fires when the mage is hurt. Which just needs another round of the same thing... and total of 6 mages to counter 1.

Edited January 18 by Jarno Mikkola

[DavidW]

1 hour ago, gatperdut said:

As the title says, I was running some tests on both Lavok and my own characters, and they cannot be breached until SI: Abjuration is removed. Whether it's cast from memory or a scroll is irrelevant. 

Now, I *think* that is a bug. I'd swear that was never the case before, and the readme doesn't seem to mention anything about it.

 

Intended behavior, it's worked that way since the first release of SCSII.

[gatperdut]

Ouch. I will eventually learn all the edge cases.