You thoughts on romances.

[Domi]

EDIT on 2006-Nov-07:

 

Thanks everyone for discussion. I've now have decided which 4 characters will be romance-enabled. I'd like it to be as natural as possible when the mod comes out, so I don't want to tell right now who will get the additional romantic sequences, conflicts etc (ie in addition to regular flirting).

 

Each romantic sequences will consist from 12 romance-specific talks (additional to 14-16 talks from the friendship track that all NPCs get) + flirts+ conflicts and will be initiated depending on PCs choices during first friendship talks.

 

At that time I will be restricting the romances based only on PC's gender and responces.

 

Anything goes: which NPC from the list you'd like to see romanceable; an ideal romanceable NPC not from the list; your ideal romance; romance conflicts; what have you.

 

Realities:

 

Romantic sequences will consist of extra option in friendship sequences and some 7-10 romance-specific dialogues.

BioWARE NPCs from BG1/BG2 are out of the question.

No fatal romance conflicts/droping NPC out of the party/killing NPC can not be achieved.

Compton-style PC-initiated flirts will be included - thanks the Bigg, thanks Avenger!

[berelinde]

Nord. It would be a tough one, and I might revise that opinion on reading his lines. (Sorry, I've been focusing on the lines I'm supposed to be proofreading.) But I think a more mature, more worldly love interest might have some appeal. I would anticipate that he would have a somewhat cautious, yet tender and compassionate, approach to romance.

[Noctalys]

I think Rizdaer might have an interesting romance. I mean, you're a female, and he's your prisoner. Would that not make him resentful towards you at first? Mistrustful at the very least? Would he disbelieve any friendship you tried to begin with him? Would you be able to convince him that you considered him a full member of the party, not just some slave? I'd like to see how such a thing would develop.

[berelinde]

Having read a bit, I stand by my earlier post. He would be rough around the edges, but he would respect the right woman. He's a bit coarse, but "good" does not necessarily equal "nice." Nor does "chaste" equal "celibate." Chastity can mean two things. It can mean devotion to a celibate state, but it can also mean devotion to a bonded partner.

[Domi]

For me Nord's backstory precludes him from interpreting a vow of chastity as a bond with someone, because of the reasons why he took it. His interpretation of it is straightforward and I feel it fits his character not to seek loopholes. He and Therla are two characters that I see as "non-romances".

 

@Noctalys: Noted! And, yes, see much implications. If I write his friendship, I will try on "flirting" options just like with all other characters to see if it will work, and if it proves interesting.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

Problem is, I do not yet know a lot about these characters' character, so it'd be hard to say which ones would make for good romantic interests in the context of what you're writing. Still, I'll give it a go.

 

I do think keeping the amount of "romancable" npcs low would not only be best from a practical/workload point of view, but would also be better for the immersion factor. Having a whole party of people trying to flirt with the PC/eachother gives me all kind of uncomfortable Robert Jordan vibes. (one of my pet peeves with his books: he hooks every damn character in them up with another member of the cast. And none of the relationships ring true.)

 

So... candidates. Nord is out, as is Therla. (can see why.)

 

Hildury... well, call me prejudiced but I don't think I'd be interested. Between being an Orc and having single digit intelligence I can't imagine she'd make for rivetting conversation. Best hope would be "unintentionally funny."

 

Diriel: whilst intruiging, not the stuff romance is made from either. Okay, I could see it working. But I think it would be more fun to try and find out about his hidden agenda without romantic tensions added in. Speculating, I would think he'd be a character holding himself somewhat aloof from the party, working well enough with them when the situation requires it but not getting close to anyone if he can help it. Still, none of these factors preclude romance altogether, but I think there are better candidates.

 

Jaemal would be very... interesting. And quite difficult to write. What the hell would a eunuch think if he fell in love with someone? My guess would be frustration and depression. I'm washing my hands of this one.

 

Nikosh: I don't pick up much from his character from the bio, so I don't really know if he'd work. He'd be a good candidate for a more "normal" romantic interest without a lot of emotional baggage, I'd think. And halflings are cool.

 

Salomeya: picturing her as a femme fatale would perhaps be a cliché, but from the banters in the preview screenshots she does strike me as someone who's at least pretending to be continually bored with the other party members, and might think having a quick affair with the fearless leader would be just the thing to spice things up. "True" romance would still be possible, but a quick breakup would be just as much fun. (uh... from a gameplay point of view, that is. Adds drama.) Having things go really sour could run afoul of the "no party members leaving" problem, though. Still, I'd be interested.

 

Prachi: my opinions on her are much the same as for Nikosh. Too early to tell. And she's not a halfling.

 

Rizdaer: would work, providing he does not resemble the Soulafein mod. Which he shouldn't, thank the gods. Whilst I can easily see a female protagonist being interested in him, I wonder at his attitude. Being a drow and seeing his history, he quite obviously would have nothing against sexual involvement with a female leader to improve his position in the group, but emotional investment? Only if something fairly dramatic happened to make him feel like he'd belong to the group, and on the surface. Right now, I'd see him as a fairly aloof outsider who mostly wants to get on with eking out an existence in the new world he finds himself in. Especially as he's a prisoner. I'd say he has a lot of potential as both romance interest and 'ordinary' party member.

 

Peony: I have little to go on, but I say sure. She'd be a whole lot different from Bioware's tortured souls, which is a plus. Can't stand too much angst. And gnomes are almost as cool as halflings. It'd be something of a challenge to write this character in a reasonably serious, non-comic-relief fashions without losing her light character, I think, but you have more experience with that than I.

 

 

 

Well, that already makes for a rather long post, I think. Still, a quick summary:

Nikosh and Prachi would be the most normal romance options, both could work well but don't have anything truly interesting to recommend them.

Rizdaer and Peony both sound like they'd be interesting, but perhaps more limited in appeal/more difficult to write. They're also both not included in the first phase. Still, they're the ones I'd be interested in the most.

Salomeya would be very good as a non-serious 'romance' candidate, and would also be an obvious choice for romance conflicts, motivated by boredom and malicious mischief. The risk is turning her into a cliché, but it could also be an interesting different flavour.

 

Oh, and no. I have neither a gnome nor a halfling fetish. Just tired of all the elven maidens.

[Domi]

Problem is, I do not yet know a lot about these characters' character, so it'd be hard to say which ones would make for good romantic interests in the context of what you're writing. Still, I'll give it a go.

 

Yes, I see the dilemma.

 

My dilemma is that on one hand I don't want to spoil too much, on another hand, I don't want to write something that will not find any audience. Granted, there is one idea I will not let go off, I think, and that's Jaemal. I have the story there, and I do want to tell it. To myself if nobody else will be interested

 

In a way I think, maybe it will be worthwhile to prepare Phases I and II for release, release them and then wait on the feedback and go from there. Unfortunately, it's been my experience that feedback of that sort while precious, takes a lot of time to obtain and is difficult to garner any sort of a representative sample (ie out of thousand downloads BG1NPC gets, we have less then 50 people voting on romances).

 

My generic notes will be:

 

All romances will have the following mechanism of initiation: PC hits clearly flirting choice in a friendship sequence in a couple of early talks. Romance starts. If PC never hits the flirting choice, I might do a cautious short talk for each NPC that will check PC's interest in a particular romance.

 

My ideal is to have 2 romances available to each gender - on on the goodier, one on the neutral or evil side. That's the lowest I would like to go for.

 

I see Diriel, Hildury, Nikosh and Peony as niche romances for specific one or two race choices for the Protagonist; Peony being the last one on the list from the NPCs people do want will have to be extremely lucky to make the cut.

 

I see no problems with swaping Diriel vs Rizdaer as a second female romance option. In fact, Diriel being a niche romance, while Rizdaer's - not, Rizdaer is, perhaps, a better choice. The downside is that Rizdaer needs to be added, which means the whole nine yards of development.

 

The poll I ran earlier showed that Prachi was way more interesting than Peony, hence Prachi ended up in the cast, not Peony: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=6310

 

I am listening and will be listening very carefuly to any opinion which will pop up about which NPCs sounds like the most romanceable and what kind of romances people envision as "perfect". Till I start writing each individual romance. I think I will just announce it separately every time, I decided for sure and commited to each one. The same, will obviously, be true if I commit to any of the "On Hold" NPCs.

[Raven_Song]

Salomeya: picturing her as a femme fatale would perhaps be a cliché, but from the banters in the preview screenshots she does strike me as someone who's at least pretending to be continually bored with the other party members, and might think having a quick affair with the fearless leader would be just the thing to spice things up. "True" romance would still be possible, but a quick breakup would be just as much fun. (uh... from a gameplay point of view, that is. Adds drama.) Having things go really sour could run afoul of the "no party members leaving" problem, though. Still, I'd be interested.

 

See I don't think she's pretending to be bored, I think she really does not care about any of her comrades, but keeps them around 1) for protection (there's safety in numbers) and 2) her own twisted entertainment.

 

"True" romance would be conceptually difficult unless the protagonist were as evil and manipulative as she, then I could possibly see a spark. I don't think good or neutral, (well perhaps chaotic neutral), characters would get that involved, as afterall her dialogues reveal the depths she is prepared to sink to, and she certainly seems beyond redemption (Viconia never seemed as evil as madam).

 

Perhaps if she were Chaotic Neutral, as opposed to evil, and remained catty, self-abosorber, materialistic, mercanary, but without that cold blooded edge, there might be more scope but at present she seems a little dififcult for a "general" romance.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

I think it's rather premature to call someone "evil beyond redemption" on the basis of a couple of snappy remarks...

 

It's quite possible she really is bored with the party, quite likely she doesn't care for any of them at this stage. After all, she hardly knows them. But why can't an evil character care for some people? Or fall in love?

 

But yes, I imagine there's a reason for that evil aligment and that a good character would be unlikely to be interested in her. But it can happen. There are plenty of incompatible couples around, plenty of people falling for the wrong man/woman.

[berelinde]

Part of evil is selfishness. One might argue that in order to love, one must care about someone besides Number One. There are lots of good people out there that love evil, selfish people. I'm not going to argue about the wisdom of this practice. But I bet I know which partner is doing the giving.

 

On a purely physical level, I can see compatibility between two evil people. But I cannot se an equal, sharing relationship. In a mismatched couple, I can easily imagine a more or less one-sided relationship where the non-evil partner is accomodating the evil partner's needs and manages to believe he or she is actually in a loving relationship.

 

But I'm reading way too much into this.

 

I can also imagine a scenario where two evil people are united in a kind of Bonnie and Clyde kind of way, where their malicious intent is directed at everyone else, not each other.

 

Bringing it back to the initial topic, the last point is the kind of relationship I might imagine possible with Diriel: he and a like-minded elf merrily go about their plans of world domination, united against the "impure" races. It could work.

[berelinde]

If there is going to be any development of the Nikosh/Hildury friendship, do you think you could work in a paraphrase of Oscar Wilde:

 

We are all in the gutter. But some of us are looking at the stars.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

I think that it's too narrow an interpretation. Sure, D&D places a strong link between evil and selfishness. But surely there are evil people who care about a few others, and are ruthless bastards where the rest are concerned? Why put them in so small a pigeonhole?

[Raven_Song]

I think it's rather premature to call someone "evil beyond redemption" on the basis of a couple of snappy remarks...

 

My observtions weren't just based on "a couple of snappy remarks", I've actually been proof-reading Salomeya's interactions and have been testing the flirt options. I probably would have been better posting in the workroom section, if Domi wishes to cut it, that's fine.

 

But why can't an evil character care for some people? Or fall in love?

 

I'm sure they can, my comments related purely to Salomeya.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

In that case, you have more information than I and I'll yield to your judgment. So much for Salomeya.

[berelinde]

She sounds like a sweetie.

 

But she still might be, um, interesting to have around.