Wanderer Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Still, I don't think I would ever imagine anyone actually casting such a spell to deal with a handful of orcs.I did. How do you think I knew what Melissan does when you cast the spell? I don't think it's quite fair to assume what a player might or might not try; it could be the only attack spell a party's priest currently has available, or she might want to save the bigger guns for bigger foes, e.g. Link to comment
Gorilym Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Still, I don't think I would ever imagine anyone actually casting such a spell to deal with a handful of orcs.I did. How do you think I knew what Melissan does when you cast the spell? I don't think it's quite fair to assume what a player might or might not try; it could be the only attack spell a party's priest currently has available, or she might want to save the bigger guns for bigger foes, e.g. Eh, fair enough. I guess changing Saradush Melissan to TN - and pretending that she's using some kind of aura of alignment distortion - may be the only "solution". (A thought occured, does the "same" thing happen if you cast Unholy Blight while an LG Melissan is around? I'd guess it does) Link to comment
Guest Jellybee22 Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Another alternative: There are items that can change your alignment, right? I seem to remember a Helm of Opposite Alignment or somesuch. How about make the .cre LE or CE or whatever, but give her an item that affects alignment? What happens when you cast Holy Smite etc. on someone whose alignment's affected by an item? Also, I'd use Holy Smite in the first Saradush battle, too. 'Tis preferable to Fireball when there are 'innocent' bystanders about. Link to comment
Wanderer Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Another alternative: There are items that can change your alignment, right? I seem to remember a Helm of Opposite Alignment or somesuch. How about make the .cre LE or CE or whatever, but give her an item that affects alignment? What happens when you cast Holy Smite etc. on someone whose alignment's affected by an item? I have no idea if it's technically feasible, but it sounds like it could be a possibility. The only exploit I can think of would be if someone tried to pickpocket it, but if they did that then even a good NPC might be expected to turn hostile... and perhaps there's a way to prevent that in any case (again, no idea). Link to comment
Gorilym Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Simply using an undroppable duplicate should suffice to prevent pickpocket exploits, but I'm not sure alignment-change-by-item actually "blocks" holy smite. Link to comment
Felinoid Posted November 7, 2006 Author Share Posted November 7, 2006 Not to mention that it might still open her up to UNholy Smite. A neutral alignment is better. Link to comment
Guest Jellybee22 Posted November 8, 2006 Share Posted November 8, 2006 I have no idea if it's technically feasible, but it sounds like it could be a possibility. The only exploit I can think of would be if someone tried to pickpocket it, but if they did that then even a good NPC might be expected to turn hostile... and perhaps there's a way to prevent that in any case (again, no idea). Simply using an undroppable duplicate should suffice to prevent pickpocket exploits, IIRC, she already has an altered version of Imoen's Belt in the early incarnations, an alignment change might be tacked on to that. but I'm not sure alignment-change-by-item actually "blocks" holy smite. Not to mention that it might still open her up to UNholy Smite. A neutral alignment is better. I just tested the Helm of Opposite Alignment (HELM02) in the game: I put the helm on Aerie, she turned CE right away, and the Robe of the Good Archmagi became unwearable. She was affected by Holy Smite, and immune to Unholy Blight. Remove Curse, put the helm on LG Anomen... and his alignment is still LG. He was immune to Holy Smite, but hurt by Unholy Blight. So, I think I've confirmed how alignment-affecting items alter the effects of Un/Holy Smite, and found a bug related to Anomen's alignment change. It seems like a permanent affect that overrides even items (or utter devotion to Helm, maybe) rather than an instantaneous change. But then, I'm no modder, so I'll leave that to you smart people. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 The v2 lowdown: amtgen01.cre - Jamis Tombelthen - originally Lawful Neutral bounha.cre - Bounty Hunter - originally Neutral Evil bounha04.cre - Bounty Hunter - originally Lawful Neutral jade2.cre - Thenry - originally True Neutral jade3.cre - Jeremon - originally Chaotic Neutral Moved to OBC. maeguy02.cre - Thief - originally Chaotic Neutral magcle20.cre - Mage - originally True Neutral mage10a.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage10b.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage10c.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage10d.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage11.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage12a.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage12b.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage12c.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage12d.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage6a.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage6b.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage6c.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage8c.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral ppsuna.cre - Suna Seni - originally Lawful Neutral bdcoun01.cre - Council Member - originally True Neutral behspe01.cre - Beholder - originally Lawful Neutral cutmelis.cre - Melissan - originally Lawful Good finmel01.cre - Melissan - originally Chaotic Evil mel01.cre - Melissan - originally Lawful Good meliss01.cre - Melissan - originally Lawful Good mugger4.cre - Ogre - originally Neutral Evil These changes are dropped; the first batch are unused files (mage8a and mage8b are used, mainly as additional Cowled Wizards or as dummy simulcrums for LE characters). The Spectator is mainly concerned with his contract and doesn't really show any good or evil traits, ergo he stays. The ogre mugger is fine (I think it's actually unused anyway) as NE. Melissan was harder, and certainly the subject of most of the debate in the thread. The three LG versions of Mel are likely intentional to fool the player, and I'm taking the position that if she has magic powerful enough to trick a spell like Know Alignment/Detect Evil, there's no reason it wouldn't also trick spells like Holy Smite/Unholy Blight. The big issue with justifying it with an item like a Helm of Opposite Alignment is that the Helm does not cause a cosmetic change, but an actual alignment change--i.e. if she put one on, she should start behaving in a LG fashion instead of simply pretending to be LG. civamng1.cre - Amnish Soldier - originally Lawful Good golbra01.cre - Brain Golem - originally Chaotic Good noblem1.cre - Nobleman - originally NONE noblem2.cre - Nobleman - originally NONE zomblo01.cre - Zombie Lord - originally Chaotic Neutral The Amnish Soldier is going to LN instead (nothing particularly good or evil about his actions, he's a guard) and the brain golem is going to TN instead. The noblemen are going to LN instead, to match their noblewomen counterparts. The Zombie Lord is going to NE, per Fel's suggestion. aemerhob.cre - Hobgoblin Archer - originally NONE anno1.cre - Announcer - originally NONE argrim.cre - Lord Ketlaar Argrim - originally Neutral Evil army01.cre - Orc - originally NONE behobs01.cre - Beholder - originally Lawful Neutral bhaal01.cre - Bhaal - originally Chaotic Evil booter.cre - Booter - originally True Neutral booter02.cre - Booter - originally True Neutral bounha02.cre - Bounty Hunter - originally Lawful Good bounha03.cre - Bounty Hunter - originally Lawful Good cederil.cre - Deril - originally Chaotic Good cguard1.cre - Cultist Guard - originally Lawful Neutral cguard2.cre - Cultist Guard - originally Lawful Neutral chalslay.cre - Slayer - originally True Neutral copamb02.cre - Copper Coronet Guard - originally Lawful Neutral copamb05.cre - Copper Coronet Guard - originally Lawful Neutral copgreet.cre - Frankie - originally True Neutral corneil.cre - Corneil - originally Lawful Neutral cowenf02.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cowenf2.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cowld.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cowled01.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl1.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl2.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl3.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl4.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl5.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl6.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl7.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl8.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cscowl9.cre - Cowled Wizard - originally NONE cucow1.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cucow2.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cucow3.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwiz1.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwiz2.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwiz3.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwiz4.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwiz5.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwiz6.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwizc.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE cuwizsu.cre - Cowled Enforcer - originally NONE daabol.cre - Aboleth - originally True Neutral degard.cre - Degardan - originally Chaotic Neutral dempit.cre - Pit Fiend - originally Chaotic Evil dempit01.cre - Pit Fiend - originally Chaotic Evil dempitsu.cre - Pit Fiend - originally Chaotic Evil docsol03.cre - Guard Captain - originally True Neutral drslayer.cre - Slayer - originally NONE duearc01.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral duecla01.cre - Ilyich - originally Lawful Neutral duegau01.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral duegau02.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral duemag01.cre - Mage - originally Lawful Neutral duemag02.cre - Mage - originally Lawful Neutral duergar.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral duergar1.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral duergar2.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral duergar3.cre - Duergar - originally Lawful Neutral elehob01.cre - Goblin Commando - originally NONE gguard01.cre - Amnish Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral gphil02.cre - Philosopher - originally Lawful Neutral guard2.cre - Copper Coronet Guard - originally Lawful Neutral guard3.cre - Copper Coronet Guard - originally Lawful Neutral hamek.cre - Mekrath - originally NONE hgskl01.cre - Skeleton Cleric - originally True Neutral hgskl02.cre - Skeleton Assassin - originally Lawful Neutral hgskl03.cre - Skeleton Mage - originally True Neutral hgslv01.cre - Slave Woman - originally Lawful Neutral hgwra01.cre - Gorion - originally Lawful Good hlmafer.cre - Maferan - originally Lawful Neutral hlolaf.cre - Olaf Rassmusen - originally Lawful Neutral hlrevan.cre - Revanek - originally Lawful Neutral isaea.cre - Isaea Roenal - originally Lawful Neutral jaga1.cre - Bessen - originally Chaotic Neutral korgoo01.cre - Goon - originally Lawful Neutral korgoo02.cre - Goon - originally Lawful Neutral korscroo.cre - Scrooloose - originally Lawful Neutral korshag.cre - Shagbag - originally Lawful Neutral lehtin.cre - Lehtinan - originally Lawful Neutral llynis.cre - Llynis - originally True Neutral madam.cre - Madam Nin - originally True Neutral mage8a.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mage8b.cre - Zyntris - originally True Neutral mdrak.cre - Maharajah - originally NONE mekimp01.cre - Imp - originally Neutral Evil mgass01.cre - Sergeant Natula - originally Lawful Neutral mgass02.cre - Tyrian - originally Lawful Neutral mgass03.cre - Vilhelm - originally Lawful Neutral mgket01.cre - Lord Ketlaar Argrim - originally Lawful Neutral mgketg01.cre - Man-at-Arms - originally Lawful Neutral mgketg02.cre - Archer - originally Lawful Neutral mgkhol01.cre - Khollynnus Paac - originally True Neutral mugger1.cre - Shady Character - originally True Neutral mugger2.cre - Shady Character - originally True Neutral mugger3.cre - Shady Character - originally True Neutral mvguard1.cre - Assassin - originally Chaotic Neutral naldirt.cre - Officer Dirth - originally Lawful Good obssah02.cre - Sahuagin Priestess - originally NONE parfig16.cre - Jalin Tix - originally Lawful Neutral parmonk.cre - Mahar - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur03.cre - Front - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur04.cre - Guard - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur05.cre - Guard Capt - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur06.cre - Guard Capt - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur08.cre - Guard - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur11.cre - Guard - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur12.cre - Guard - originally Lawful Neutral pirmur13.cre - Guard Capt - originally Lawful Neutral pirpir01.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral pirpir02.cre - Andar the Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral pirpir03.cre - Olben the Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral pirpir05.cre - Chremy - originally NONE pirsea01.cre - Pirate Captain - originally True Neutral pirsea02.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral pirsea03.cre - Pirate - originally True Neutral plshhg01.cre - Hobgoblin Slayer - originally NONE plshhg02.cre - Hobgoblin Wizard - originally NONE ppaltk1.cre - Kobold Shaman - originally NONE ppbhaal.cre - Bhaal - originally Chaotic Evil ppdesh.cre - Desharik - originally Lawful Neutral ppdesh2.cre - Desharik - originally Lawful Neutral ppduel1.cre - Andante - originally Lawful Neutral ppduelc.cre - Duel Coordinator - originally Lawful Neutral ppguarda.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral ppldr01.cre - Pirate Leader - originally Lawful Neutral ppmag01.cre - Pirate Mage - originally True Neutral pppirate.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral ppright.cre - Dunbar - originally Lawful Neutral ppsail01.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral ppsail02.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral ppsail03.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral ppthf01.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral ppthf02.cre - Pirate - originally Lawful Neutral rakmah01.cre - Maharajah - originally NONE rakraj01.cre - Rajah - originally NONE rakruh01.cre - Ruhk - originally NONE raksha01.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral ralej.cre - Rayic Gethras - originally NONE reband03.cre - Bandit - originally Lawful Neutral rerak01.cre - Traveler - originally Chaotic Neutral rerak02.cre - Traveler - originally Chaotic Neutral rerak03.cre - Traveler - originally Chaotic Neutral rerak04.cre - Traveler - originally Chaotic Neutral rerak05.cre - Traveler - originally Chaotic Neutral rerak06.cre - Traveler - originally Chaotic Neutral resuna.cre - Suna Seni - originally True Neutral rethie02.cre - Slaver - originally Chaotic Neutral rethie03.cre - Slaver - originally Chaotic Neutral rethug01.cre - Thug - originally True Neutral rethug02.cre - Mage - originally True Neutral rethug03.cre - Thug - originally NONE rethug04.cre - Thug - originally Chaotic Neutral rigen01.cre - Lord Igen Tombelthen - originally Lawful Neutral rumar01.cre - Umar - originally Chaotic Evil sargrd05.cre - Thief - originally Lawful Neutral sargrd06.cre - Mage - originally True Neutral sargrd09.cre - Thief - originally Lawful Neutral sevpat02.cre - Sorcerous Amon - originally True Neutral sevpat03.cre - Pooky - originally True Neutral sewarc01.cre - Orc Archer - originally Lawful Neutral sewarc02.cre - Orc Archer - originally Lawful Neutral sewrak01.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral sewyag02.cre - Orc Archer - originally Lawful Neutral slayer.cre - Slayer - originally NONE stolethf.cre - Shadow Thief - originally Lawful Good suadsaan.cre - Adsaan - originally NONE surakmah.cre - Maharajah - originally NONE surakraj.cre - Rajah - originally NONE surakruh.cre - Ruhk - originally NONE suraksha.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral surakw1.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral surakw2.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral surakw3.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral surakw4.cre - Rakshasa - originally Chaotic Neutral surly.cre - Surly - originally True Neutral suziyaad.cre - Ziyaad - originally NONE tantug01.cre - Thug - originally Lawful Neutral tantug02.cre - Thug - originally Lawful Neutral tantug03.cre - Thug - originally Lawful Neutral telpit2.cre - Pit Fiend - originally Chaotic Evil thief7.cre - Anishai - originally Chaotic Neutral tiana.cre - Tiana - originally True Neutral tolmag01.cre - Mage - originally NONE tolmag02.cre - Mage - originally NONE trrak02.cre - Saadat - originally Chaotic Neutral trrak03.cre - Jalaal - originally Chaotic Neutral udmaster.cre - The Master Brain - originally Chaotic Evil vaelag.cre - Vaelag - originally Chaotic Neutral yaga02.cre - Lieutenant Mage - originally True Neutral yaga04.cre - Lieutenant Cleric - originally True Neutral ysgrunt.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral ysguar02.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral ysguar03.cre - Yaga-Shura Mage - originally True Neutral ysguar04.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral ysguar05.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral ysguar06.cre - Yaga-Shura Officer - originally Lawful Neutral ysmage01.cre - Yaga-Shura Mage - originally True Neutral yssold01.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral yssold02.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral yssold03.cre - Yaga-Shura Officer - originally Lawful Neutral yssold13.cre - Yaga-Shura Soldier - originally Lawful Neutral yssold14.cre - Yaga-Shura Mage - originally True Neutral yssold15.cre - Yaga-Shura Officer - originally Lawful Neutral zilarc01.cre - Black Reaver - originally Lawful Neutral zilfgt01.cre - Black Reaver - originally Lawful Neutral zilfgt02.cre - Black Reaver - originally Lawful Neutral zilmag01.cre - Black Reaver - originally True Neutral These remain as changes to LE. One recurring issue that influenced judgments here: for some creatures, the most defining characteristic is their membership in an organization, and (in the lack of other evidence) they take on the alignment of their organization by default. I.e., the main reason why CWs get lumped as LE is that the CW organization itself is LE. The devs defined them as CWs, ergo they represent the organization. The same issue is true for the pirates on Desharik's island (i.e. just about all of the pir*.cre). Desharik runs a hierarchical, criminal organization that preys upon others through typical pirating activities, notably theft, kidnapping, assault, murder, etc. The devs chose to define most of the creatures on the island as pirates--ergo, they were designated by the devs as representatives of the organization and become LE. Where enough other information is known to distinguish creatures as individuals and hence judge them individually, they are. For example, Capt'n Bob Holmes and his crew in the Vulgar Monkey are left alone as we know enough about them to determine their original alignments are correct. Some specifics: argrim - Ketlaar is not just a noble, he's organizing fanatics against the CWs and sends assassins against CWs and anyone working with them. His organization is a big enough threat that the CWs want him to disappear rather than die. parfgt16 & parmonk: These two are part of Ketlaar Argrim's assassins that try to kill you and Teos in the Planar Sphere. resuna - Don't confuse what was planned and discarded for Suna Seni with what she actually does in the game--lead a group of slavers trying to enslave or kill the party in an unprovoked, back-alley fight. Same bit here as the other threads: these are certainly not final, and more discussion and feedback is encouraged. Link to comment
devSin Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 golbra01 and zomblo01 are unused. Don't change hgwra01 (or move it to optional). Once you discover it's the wraith, its alignment already changes to LE. Link to comment
CamDawg Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 golbra01 and zomblo01 are unused. Don't change hgwra01 (or move it to optional). Once you discover it's the wraith, its alignment already changes to LE. Cheers, we'll drop all three of these. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.