Multiromancing in the committed state?

[berelinde]

First it was multi-romancing, then it was just another ease-of-use cheat (you never did address that issue, by the way), and now it's Anomen bashing.

 

Why can't it just be a valid way to realistically deal with the issues a PC might have when her betrothed has been away a while and there is someone else close at hand who might like to get to know her better?

 

BioWare never did lots of things. That dosn't mean it was better that way.

[jastey]

I consider the approach of letting Anomen court a taken woman(when no other Bioware romance in BG2 allows that)

I don't see how a BioWare NPC romance could be in the situation like Gavin or Ajantis.

But here you have your analogy: Jaheira. An engaged, maybe even married woman, can be romanced by the (paladin, LG, ..) PC, directly after she lost her beloved under cruel conditions. That I consider jerkish, from both sides, and it describes exactly what is talked about in this thread. (Sorry if I insulted Jaheira romance players, that was not my intention.)

 

...Anomen-bashing, you may think otherwise.

I have to think about it some more. I do not intend to bash Anomen, not at all. Anomen bashing is a reason for me to think low of other NPC mods. I don't like being addressed as Anomen-basher, either. But when designing the romance conflict I did not have the impression I am bashing him, on the contrary: He gets a real chance, and he stays decent, from my point of view.

[Kulyok]

First it was multi-romancing, then it was just another ease-of-use cheat (you never did address that issue, by the way), and now it's Anomen bashing.

 

Why can't it just be a valid way to realistically deal with the issues a PC might have when her betrothed has been away a while and there is someone else close at hand who might like to get to know her better?

 

Because, if you wish to address this issue, it has to be either a lie(PC doesn't let an NPC know she is engaged) or a character who doesn't mind adultery - carrying on an emotional affair, as I said several times before. Anomen, in my view, doesn't fit either criteria - I've gone through it before at length. This way, I do not see it any more realistic as a multiromance patch.

 

I guess we are going over the same points over and over again.

[Kulyok]

I don't see how a BioWare NPC romance could be in the situation like Gavin or Ajantis.

 

Easily. Take a committed romance with Aerie, then let her out of the party for a short while(or it can happen that she is dead). Then take Jaheira/Viconia into the party. Neither of them will start her romance - because Aerie's romance is active and committed.

 

Same with mods - Kelsey will wait for his CHARNAME in the Promenade faithfully, and during this time, even if you go and pick Anomen in the Copper Coronet, our Helmite won't say a word about "knowing each other better".

 

But here you have your analogy: Jaheira. An engaged, maybe even married woman, can be romanced by the (paladin, LG, ..) PC, directly after she lost her beloved under cruel conditions. That I consider jerkish, from both sides, and it describes exactly what is talked about in this thread. (Sorry if I insulted Jaheira romance players, that was not my intention.)

 

Agreed. But that's her personality, it fits her personality, more or less. If we were talking not about Anomen, but about some other character - heck, even Coran as Bioware wrote him - I think I'd have no qualms. But I do not see Anomen capable of it.

[berelinde]

It isn't Anomen bashing. Anomen doesn't come out of it looking like a jerk, no matter what Kulyok thinks.

 

I'm going to go take a nice long walk and maybe when I get back, somebody will realize that disagreement does not equate with being wrong. Nor does putting a smiley face at the end of a post make it less insulting, or less confrontational.

[EiriktheScald]

The crux seems to be Anomen's perceived character. Something I ran up against with Branwen, if you recall. The discussions got somewhat animated, when I took it the wrong way. Something I regretted later; everyone was just trying to contribute their perspective on the subject. We got through it, thankfully. And I think the follow up story was better, by not trying to delve into her past too much. What's more important?

[Guest Tempest]

Easily. Take a committed romance with Aerie, then let her out of the party for a short while(or it can happen that she is dead). Then take Jaheira/Viconia into the party. Neither of them will start her romance - because Aerie's romance is active and committed.

 

Same with mods - Kelsey will wait for his CHARNAME in the Promenade faithfully, and during this time, even if you go and pick Anomen in the Copper Coronet, our Helmite won't say a word about "knowing each other better".

 

I've always felt a little iffy about this, especially when it comes to writing my own npc (Darian, at Spellhold Studios). I'm strongly considering allowing the possibility of starting a romance with him even if you were RomanceActive = 2 with Anomen at some point, but he's either not in the party or you terminated the relationship. Granted, Darian's a bit of an unusual case because it's very much a Charname-driven romance (she has to be the one driving the relationship forward-Darian himself will not be actively pursuing her, even if he does start the lovetalks), but the idea is that if her dear Anomen's been missing for such a long time, she might drift towards Darian out of loneliness or some such, and, intentionally or not, head into the deep part of the romance.

 

His relationship track normally kicks into a non-romantic friendship if Charname falls in love with Anomen, but it's not out of the question that she might later be able to rekindle the possibility of a deeper relationship, especially since Darian mainly goes into the friendship track because he can see that Charname's in love with Anomen, and he isn't about to interfere. And by the same token, it's possible Charname thought she was in love with Anomen, but later decided the whole thing was a mistake and ended the relationship (possibly kicking him out of the party because she's too embarassed to be around him). Even though she's not in a romance with him anymore, it was RomanceActive = 2 at some point, killing any other romances. Charname might very well have decided that Anomen wasn't what she needed in a relationship, even if she thought it was at one point. In turn, it's not hard to imagine Charname turning towards another member of the party. Granted, some might rebuff her, fearing a rebound type of relationship, but in this particular case, the npc in question would probably not.

 

These are just my thoughts: I think Charname should be able to decide for herself if she wants to pursue another character if the old relationship seems dead. Take the case of a Charname who romanced Xan in BG1 and never found him in BG2: would she choose to remain faithful to him, even though she hasn't seen him in a long time, and has no idea where he might be or what he's up to, or would she give up hope of ever seeing him again, and, however reluctantly, begin to pursue a relationship with another man? The potential for soap opera comedy aside (if she *did* run into Xan again after falling for Anomen, say), I think it's a compelling question, and one completely up to Charname.

[jastey]

But I do not see Anomen capable of it.

Anomen wishes to be as knightly as a paladin, but it is very hard for him, and he does not succeed. PC has to stop him twice for not doing something horrible wrong. I think he would be capable of hitting on a comrade's fiance, if his feelings would be strong enough.

Why do you think he would not? He is tempted and led by his emotions throughout the whole game.

[jastey]

Same with mods - Kelsey will wait for his CHARNAME in the Promenade faithfully, and during this time, even if you go and pick Anomen in the Copper Coronet, our Helmite won't say a word about "knowing each other better".

Because no-one is willing to write the necessary conflict talks (if all NPCs would go on romancing, according to the personality of the NPC).

[Kulyok]

These are just my thoughts: I think Charname should be able to decide for herself if she wants to pursue another character if the old relationship seems dead. Take the case of a Charname who romanced Xan in BG1 and never found him in BG2: would she choose to remain faithful to him, even though she hasn't seen him in a long time, and has no idea where he might be or what he's up to, or would she give up hope of ever seeing him again, and, however reluctantly, begin to pursue a relationship with another man? The potential for soap opera comedy aside (if she *did* run into Xan again after falling for Anomen, say), I think it's a compelling question, and one completely up to Charname.

 

Oh! I saw "Xan" here. Right - again, I think it is easy. Either CHARNAME runs into Xan in BG2, or she doesn't. If she doesn't - she is free to have other affairs. If she does run into him, she either breaks the relationship or not. If she breaks it, she may pursue whomever she pleases, and other romances continue. If she doesn't break it, other romances(Anomen's, for example) become dead, and Xan's committed.

 

(With Darian, I apologize in that I don't quite follow - jastey's and berelinde's plans were more vivid to me: Darian's seems too complicated for me to understand at the moment).

[Kulyok]

Anomen wishes to be as knightly as a paladin, but it is very hard for him, and he does not succeed. PC has to stop him twice for not doing something horrible wrong. I think he would be capable of hitting on a comrade's fiance, if his feelings would be strong enough.

Why do you think he would not? He is tempted and led by his emotions throughout the whole game.

 

Because when he makes a decision on whether to go to Saerk or not(I will omit "going to kill his father", because here, as I mentioned, we agree - CN Anomen *would* hit on PC), he first and foremost thinks of family honor, of upholding justice. He says "but I am honor-bound!" - he is confused, but in the essence he wants to do the right thing.

 

Because no-one is willing to write the necessary conflict talks (if all NPCs would go on romancing, according to the personality of the NPC).

 

Well, it's as I told you: I wish we'd get Gaider's insight on the problem with Anomen. Maybe we will, though I doubt it. I think every modder has to solve the issue individually - personally, I think so far the approach "one romance becomes committed, other stop, no romance is active again unless the committed one is dead" makes the most sense to me.

[jastey]

he first and foremost thinks of family honor, of upholding justice. He says "but I am honor-bound!" - he is confused, but in the essence he wants to do the right thing.

(LG Anomen goes after Seark, and he knows he shouldn't do this as a knight, but he couldn't help himself, btw.) Thank you, now I understand your point of view better. Still I see him more emotion-driven, so our different opinions remain.

[BigRob]

I've null voted for this, as I think the answer is very character driven. I can see some NPCs attempting to continue romancing the PC after s/he is committed to another, although the path taken would be different. Also, a suitor cut off after falling in love might do the decent thing and step back, but love doesn't stop at the drop of a hat.

 

 

One other thing to consider in the case of Anomen is that he could quite merrily romance a committed <CHARNAME> if the other member of the relationship is not present and he is not made aware of any relationship. If things were to progress to a point where the other part of the relationship returned, I can certainly see Anomen dismissing the original lover as someone who would abandon <CHARNAME> and therefore, not really in love with her. Therefore his relationship with <CHARNAME> is the superior and true love.

 

On the other hand, if <CHARNAME> were to show up with Gavin or Ajantis or anyone else on her arm, I don't really see him trying to start anything. I think he is certainly attracted to <CHARNAME> from the start, buthe's not so smitten as to try to woo her away from another man. The development of an emotional affair/courtly love might happen, but I tend to think it'd take a lot longer to happen, possibly after the PCs help with his knighthood.

[Thauron]

I think it's strange this entire discussion almost exclusively revolves around Anomen's intentions, character or morality. Crucial of course, but should this discussion not focus more on Charname's character - she is after all the one who has the committed relationship, not Anomen.

But Charname can have 9 different alignments, and a myriad of different personalities or views on life or morality.

 

Imagine start SO2, Copper Coronet, Charname just escaped Irenicus' dungeon; she hasn't found Ajantis or Ajantis hasn't found her yet. Anomen sees a woman he is attracted to and hence goes... "Fair lady..." What does he know she is engaged (ok, she is wearing a ring but what does that mean?). Why should Charname go all berserk on him for just that - isn't it a nice compliment expressed in a gallant way? In the company he continues his attentions - ok, a wise woman should immedeately recognize where this is going - but Charname might not have too high a Wisdom score. When she notices (soon or later), she might still not tell him off immedeality (Ajantis requires his lovers to be good, not lawful).

Bref, I am hugely in favor of Jastey's and Berelinde's position - do not cut off all possible romances right from the start - just for Roleplaying's sake - although it would be by far the easiest solution.

 

From Anomen's perspective - I don't it is beneath him to pursue an already engaged woman - although the rival being a member of the Order of the Most Radiant Heart makes it rather tricky. Lets go back to our Copper Coronet scene - he did nothing wrong there - if a few talks later he discovers Charname is already engaged but she does nothing to stop his remarks and compliments or even seems to like them - why not continue?

A crucial turning point would be where Ajantis reappears - does she rush at him and throw herself sobbing in his arms - that would surely be the end from his side - or does she greet him rather neutral, throwing a hesitant look over her shoulder in Anomen's direction while embracing him? - things would surely be different.

I am sure you get the picture.

In the end, if she gives in or adopts a rather double-hearted stance, who is the jerk or the cheater here? Not Anomen IMO.

 

Besides is it such a vile act to express attraction for an engaged woman? - or even try to crawl inside her heart? Interesting woman always tend to have a partner One could at least try to bring her up to a point where you force to make a choice between her lover or you. I see little evil there - unless we are talking about a friend's, relative's or other close comrade's lover.

[Kulyok]

Besides is it such a vile act to express attraction for an engaged woman? - or even try to crawl inside her heart? Interesting woman always tend to have a partner One could at least try to bring her up to a point where you force to make a choice between her lover or you. I see little evil there - unless we are talking about a friend's, relative's or other close comrade's lover.

 

Yes, it is all nice and acceptable, unless done to you, eh?

 

Reminds me of a Coran fanfic I read recently, where Coran finds out his lady cheated on him. "He changed for her, and she repaid by - by acting like him!"

 

 

And, yes, I'd like to have an opportunity to play a scoundrel/lying PC - it's just it's quite impossible to have a secret affair in the party, where everyone is quite close - everything gets revealed at once, alas.