SCS AI and SR

[Miloch]

SR's Call Lightning can be used indoor as per 3rd edition.

Silly . I guess I missed the part where SR was supposed to match 3e rules instead of 2e ones...

Rigid Thinking is removed

Why? And what happens to existing scripts that call it? (Didn't read this whole thread...)

[Demivrgvs]

Okay, so here's my list of things to allow for in an SR version of SCS: ...

Anything obvious I've missed? (noting that I'm not trying to redo SCS's AI from scratch to allow for SR, just trying to fill the most obvious holes)

It's fine for me, maybe you could add Hold Person or Animal to druids (though I'm not sure you even use the cleric's lower level version), and if you ever restricted yourself on using Animal/Monster Summoning spells I think you may use it more with SR, Lesser Elementals in particular should be pretty powerful in BG1.

 

I've some questions myself for you:

- Doom: do you prefer vanilla's version or the one I proposed (which is practically Spallpack's one)?

- Summon Insect: am I right assuming you like it to allow a save against 100% spell failure rate?

- Greater Malison: do you prefer BG2 version (-4 to saves), or it's IWD/PnP version (-2 to saves)?

 

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but was there talk of Call Lightning doing more damage when cast outdoors? This is something I'd like to see if it can be balanced.

I'll see if I can make it cast two different spells depending on where you are, else I can add some effects when casted outdoors (e.g. longer duration).

 

I never understood the use for Glyph Of Warding. How do you use one?

Vanilla's one was pretty useless (low damage and party un-friendly). SR's one can be used as a sort of Skull Trap/Fireball: it deals clearly much less damage than those spells but being party friendly it can be used more easily.

 

SR's Call Lightning can be used indoor as per 3rd edition.

Silly .I guess I missed the part where SR was supposed to match 3e rules instead of 2e ones...

As DavidW does for SCS I'm not restricting myself to a particular PnP edition (though I do generally prefer to follow PnP), I just think 3rd edition Call Lightning is a much more useful and balanced spell. Vanilla's Call Lightning was unusable for the most part of the game, and the few times you (or the AI) could cast such spell it dealt way too much damage for a 3rd level spell. At 8th caster level it already inflicted (10d8 x 2) points of damage, 4-5 times the damage inflicted by a Lightning Bolt/Flame Arrow at the same level; and it went up to (22d8 x 5)!! SR's Call lightning instead is usable everywhere and deals up to 30d6 points of damage (still the most damaging 3rd level spell).

 

Rigid Thinking is removed

Why? And what happens to existing scripts that call it?

Existing scripts just cast Contagion instead, which still is a single target disabling spell. If that will cause any problem I'll revert the change, but Rigid Thinking (a save-or-else, single target Confusion) was considered quite useless for a 3rd level spell.

[Miloch]

SR's Call lightning instead is usable everywhere

This is what I have problems with, mainly. It's not just a "PnP rule" that you can cast it outdoors only - it's common sense. The druid is literally calling the lightning down from the clouds, as opposed to Lightning Bolt which is innate wizardly energy. Indeed, in PnP (2e anyway) wasn't just outdoor-only - it required that a storm of some sort actually be present. So where's your druid wandering around Underdark calling it from, the cavern roof?

Rigid Thinking is removed

Why? And what happens to existing scripts that call it?

Existing scripts just cast Contagion instead, which still is a single target disabling spell. If that will cause any problem I'll revert the change, but Rigid Thinking (a save-or-else, single target Confusion) was considered quite useless for a 3rd level spell.

I don't see what's so useless about a druidic Confusion spell - it's at least as useful as Miscast Magic, which, I believe, also affects 1 target for 1 turn with save vs. spells. But more importantly, I don't understand the need to "remove" vanilla spells. I have several druid scripts that use it. If you feel compelled to add a different spell entirely, no one's stopping you from doing that in another slot.

[Salk]

I had already expressed my opinon against Call Lightning working indoors too so I can but agree with Miloch. It doesn't really make sense if not cast outside although one might push it further saying it should be selectable only when it's bad weather (and the Infinity Engine has this feature... ).

 

But yeah, that would punish the spell's appetibility beyond reason.

[Galactygon]

The limitedness of Call Lightning has more to do with the game rather than the spell. It makes sense that druids are meant to fight better outdoors than in dungeons, and in the less dungeon-intensive BGI this wasn't much of a problem.

 

What I really want to see (which, admittedly isn't in the scope of this mod) are more outdoor areas and battles, and a tweak that modifies extraplanar areas to OUTDOOR. This way, you could even use call lightning on melissan.

 

Indeed, in PnP (2e anyway) wasn't just outdoor-only - it required that a storm of some sort actually be present.

 

I think have a script that changes the Weather when Call Lightning is cast.

 

-Galactygon

[Demivrgvs]

SR's Call lightning instead is usable everywhere

This is what I have problems with, mainly. It's not just a "PnP rule" that you can cast it outdoors only - it's common sense.

The first statement it's clearly not true, 3rd edition PnP makes it castable indoors. I know you think BG is based on 2nd edition but it's not completely true (Sorcerer and Monk classes clearly belong to 3rd edition), and even if it was, that doesn't allow you to declare 2nd edition rules as the only true "PnP rules".

 

And as common sense goes, you can just assume that when used indoor Call Lightning causes a static charge instead of a lightning storm (and the description can be changed to match it). I don't understand the need of having Static Charge as a different spell, it would only make spell memorization of both spells more difficult.

 

I had already expressed my opinon against Call Lightning working indoors too so I can but agree with Miloch. It doesn't really make sense if not cast outside although one might push it further saying it should be selectable only when it's bad weather (and the Infinity Engine has this feature... ).

Exactly, if you really want to stick to 2nd edition PnP as Miloch suggests, than you should make the spell castable only when there's a storm, and it should also take 10 rounds to cast it! That is why in PnP it has to inflict so much damage, because else no one would ever care to memorize this spell.

 

I think have a script that changes the Weather when Call Lightning is cast.

I was thinking of adding this feature to Call Lightning when casted outdoor, as well as having IR's Celestial Fury causing the same when wielded (I'm sure there's a mod out there that alredy does this).

[Icendoan]

Staff of Thunder And Lightning could also have that ability.

 

It only has to be cloudy for electricity to build up in clouds, so you could make it do more damage in stormy weather, but unless it was really clear and sunny (like in a desert), I think it could be cast.

 

Icen

[Demivrgvs]

I forgot to reply to this...

But more importantly, I don't understand the need to "remove" vanilla spells. I have several druid scripts that use it. If you feel compelled to add a different spell entirely, no one's stopping you from doing that in another slot.

Well, most of the times I removed them in case of redundancy (e.g. Animal Summoning III and Conjure Animals) and/or balancing issues (e.g. Conjure Earth Elemental is no longer a useless 7th level spell but a quite powerful 6th level spell). In this case I've decided to replace Rigid Thinking (which probably never existed in PnP) with Contagion (which is a well known PnP spell). Furthmore PnP Contagion is available to all spellcasting classes while Rigid Thinking (if it ever existed let me know) doesn't seem a druidic spell at all.

 

I do think it's impossible for me to please every single player, but anyone who can't stand Call Lightning and/or Rigid Thinking-Contagion changes can easily avoid installing those two SR's spells. I think it's better to let players decide which spells they prefer (I'm sure there are players who prefer to be able to use Call Lightning indoors) instead of limiting SR potential because some changes aren't perfectly accepted by the whole community. Am I wrong?

[Miloch]

It's not just a "PnP rule" that you can cast it outdoors only - it's common sense.

The first statement it's clearly not true

Yes, it is. I said it's *not just* about PnP rules, so that clearly *is* true here.

3rd edition PnP makes it castable indoors. I know you think BG is based on 2nd edition but it's not completely true (Sorcerer and Monk classes clearly belong to 3rd edition)

Yes, BG is based on 2nd edition. *Of course* it is - it says so itself. Just look at the timeline - 2nd edition came out in '89, BG in 98, 3rd edition in 2000. And BG2 may have came out the same year, but obviously that wasn't enough time to let it be corrupted by 3e to any great extent. In any event, even the manual refers to AD&D rather than D&D. And contrary to popular belief, monks and barbarians did not arise in 3rd edition but rather in 1st edition, and the incarnations of them in BG2 are much closer to 1st than 3rd edition as discussed elsewhere. Sorcerers are just mages that use a point-based system, which came out at least in 2e supplements like Spells & Magic if not earlier.

 

And if it's the goal of your mods to revise everything in accordance with 3rd edition rules, of course you can do whatever you want. But if you're claiming to revise things to be more in line with PnP rules, you might want to clarify it's *3rd edition* rules you're talking about, because most people are going to assume you mean the 2nd edition PnP rules on which the games are based.

and even if it was, that doesn't allow you to declare 2nd edition rules as the only true "PnP rules".

I didn't make any such declaration. I said BG is based off 2nd edition rules. (I have said elsewhere that 2nd edition is at least marginally more sensible than the toy store nonsense introduced once TSR sold out to Hasbro/WotC, but we needn't get into that here.)

 

Anyway, we digress. None of that is very important, because I was stressing the second part of the statement (the "common sense" bit, as I thought the "not just PnP" bit made clear ).

And as common sense goes, you can just assume that when used indoor Call Lightning causes a static charge instead of a lightning storm (and the description can be changed to match it).

No, I can't make any such preposterous assumption that doesn't violate common sense. A "static charge" is quite different from a full-blown lightning strike *called* (as the name implies) down from above. In any case, why bother allowing a Weather sphere spell underground anyway? Add a new spell in the Elemental Earth sphere instead if you want your druid to cast something impressive underground. There are plenty such spells lying around even in PnP (whatever your ruleset) that haven't been implemented.

I don't understand the need of having Static Charge as a different spell, it would only make spell memorization of both spells more difficult.

I must've missed ever coming across a "Static Charge" spell. Where, exactly, is it in the game?

I was thinking of adding this feature to Call Lightning when casted outdoor

Ah ha... now this is a strange duality. You're going to allow it cast indoors (even underground or practically underwater, like in Sahuagin lairs etc.?) but also allow it to influence the weather outdoors? Well, which is it?

Well, most of the times I removed them in case of redundancy (e.g. Animal Summoning III and Conjure Animals) and/or balancing issues (e.g. Conjure Earth Elemental is no longer a useless 7th level spell but a quite powerful 6th level spell). In this case I've decided to replace Rigid Thinking (which probably never existed in PnP) with Contagion (which is a well known PnP spell).

Rigid Thinking existed in 2e, as did all the spells in both BGs (either in the Player's Handbook, Spells & Options or Tome of Magic, this one appearing in the latter). It is quite possibly, not appropriate for a druid spell, being in the Law sphere, but you keep missing my point. Why *remove* vanilla spells, at the risk of breaking existing and mod-added scripts and other features? If you think they're useless, no one's forcing you to use them. Similarly, if you want to add new spells, you can do that too. There are roughly 100 slots in each sppr/spwi level you can use, even without resorting to Divine Remix style prefixing and so on. But why the need to overwrite or delete existing spells? This is what I don't understand.

[DavidW]

I don't understand the need of having Static Charge as a different spell, it would only make spell memorization of both spells more difficult.

I must've missed ever coming across a "Static Charge" spell. Where, exactly, is it in the game?

 

In Icewind Dale.

[Demivrgvs]

And if it's the goal of your mods to revise everything in accordance with 3rd edition rules, of course you can do whatever you want. But if you're claiming to revise things to be more in line with PnP rules, you might want to clarify it's *3rd edition* rules you're talking about, because most people are going to assume you mean the 2nd edition PnP rules on which the games are based.

As I've already said, I'm not claiming to make all spells as per PnP, though most of the times SR's changes are clearly inspired by PnP. SR's aim is to make all spells interesting and balanced as much as possible. I'd like to remove the need/possibility of having all those guides/threads about which spells are good and which are just a waste. BG is not PnP and this means sometimes PnP rules don't apply too well to it.

 

And as common sense goes, you can just assume that when used indoor Call Lightning causes a static charge instead of a lightning storm (and the description can be changed to match it).

No, I can't make any such preposterous assumption that doesn't violate common sense. A "static charge" is quite different from a full-blown lightning strike *called* (as the name implies) down from above.

Actually if we really want to compare them, static charges and lightning bolts are not so different at all. Long story short, they are currents of electrical energy discharged when there's not enough insulation between the two points at different voltage. Though visually it seems so, lightning bolts aren't exactly "called from above", but if we assume that than static charges too may be "called from above", where "above" refers to the "ceiling".

 

 

Speaking of replaced/removed spells:

 

- none of my currents changes really breaks the AI;

 

- you may have convinced me to restore Rigid Thinking while adding Contagion as a "new" spell, but in that case Rigid Thinking surely won't be usable by druids. At the moment Contagion replaces Rigid Thinking so that it may be actually used even by vanilla's scripts, else no pre-existing/mod scripts would have used it against the player;

 

- there's absolutely no way I would restore Conjure Earth Elemental as 7th level spell when I've added Conjure Air Elemental too as a 6th level spell. The AI can still cast it as a 7th level spell if the script calls for it, it will just summon the same Elemental summoned by the player's 6th level spell, which is still more powerful than vanilla's one;

 

- Confusion as 7th level spell is absolutely pathetic, the AI can still use it with SR installed but I bet any good script would never waste a 7th level spell slot on it. Restoring it would force me to find a way to make it a poweful spell, else I would clearly miss my main goal of making all spells a "good choice";

[Miloch]

I'd like to remove the need/possibility of having all those guides/threads about which spells are good and which are just a waste.

You're going to have those threads no matter what. Indeed, you'll still have them after folks install your mod (no matter how much you tweak it) because everyone has a different opinion on which spells are good and which are rubbish.

 

Take a look at Oogi's School on Dudleyville for example. He puts Rigid Thinking as "Bread and Butter" - a step above Miscast Magic and Call Lightning in the "Cheap Beer" category. I'm not saying I'd agree with that necessarily, but I wouldn't put it in "Horse Dung" either. I do think it's marginally better than Miscast because it can disable a caster 100%, as opposed to 80% (both with saving throws though).

Though visually it seems so, lightning bolts aren't exactly "called from above"

Talking about Call Lightning, not Lightning Bolt (already made that distinction). The latter is not, the former most certainly is - visually and functionally.

there's absoulutely no way I would restore Conjure Earth Elemental as 7th level spell when I've added Conjure Air Elemental too as a 6th level spell

Moving a spell is a little different than replacing it with something else entirely. In fact, I think Divine Remix already makes this very change. You might want to check that a) you're not reinventing the wheel for nothing and b) that your changes are compatible (removing/replacing spells is quite possibly something that could break DR).

At the moment Contagion replaces Rigid Thinking so that it may be actually used even by vanilla's scripts, else no pre-existing or mod scripts would have used it against the player.

Not sure what you're saying. I'm pretty sure the vanilla priest3.bcs uses it, as do modded scripts. If you're keeping the scripting command CLERIC_RIGID_THINKING while it's actually casting Contagion - well, whatever... it's misleading at best. At worst, you might be breaking a mod that counts on it having its intended effect.

 

Rules and modding etiquette discussions aside () - how do you plan on having a single spell have two different effects for indoors and outdoors? I thought that was controlled in the spell's general properties rather than the effects, but I could be wrong.

 

Edit: Oh, and speaking of DR, here's another thing. Priests of particular deities are restricted to spells of certain spheres. So even if you think a spell is complete crap and want to remove it completely, well it might be the only choice for someone's poor Painbearer of Ilmater (or whatever). And that goes for enemy NPCs as well as party members.

[Demivrgvs]

I'd like to remove the need/possibility of having all those guides/threads about which spells are good and which are just a waste.

You're going to have those threads no matter what. Indeed, you'll still have them after folks install your mod (no matter how much you tweak it) because everyone has a different opinion on which spells are good and which are rubbish.

 

Take a look at Oogi's School on Dudleyville for example. He puts Rigid Thinking as "Bread and Butter" - a step above Miscast Magic and Call Lightning in the "Cheap Beer" category. I'm not saying I'd agree with that necessarily, but I wouldn't put it in "Horse Dung" either. I do think it's marginally better than Miscast because it can disable a caster 100%, as opposed to 80% (both with saving throws though).

Actually if chosing which spell to memorize will only be a matter of opinions than SR will have achieved its goal! What I want to remove are objective balance differences, and even if I know it's probably not 100% possible I hope to reduce these differences to minimum terms.

 

To make it more clear let's take Oogi's school and its analisys of 1st level mages spells. Only two spells are considered "Gold Dust" (one of them obviously is Magic Missile), six are considered "bread and butter", but fourteen of them are considered "cheep beer" or "horse dung". SR's main goal (and it already achieves it with a good extend imo) is to make sure not a single spell can be considered "cheep beer" or "horse dung". I may not be able to assure all spells can be considered "gold dust", but I think SR already is a huge improvement over vanilla's spell system. If some threads pop up discussing which SR's spells are "gold dust" and which ones are "bread and butter" based on different opinions it would be understandable and quite good as long as there are no useless spells anymore (well, obviously I can't do nothing to make spells like Know Alignment powerful! ).

 

Though visually it seems so, lightning bolts aren't exactly "called from above"

Talking about Call Lightning, not Lightning Bolt (already made that distinction). The latter is not, the former most certainly is - visually and functionally.

They all are pratically the same thing, a discharge of electrical potential energy (though with quite a magical flavor ). The things I've said are still valid.

 

how do you plan on having a single spell have two different effects for indoors and outdoors? I thought that was controlled in the spell's general properties rather than the effects, but I could be wrong.

By using multiple "Cast Spell" effects on each spell level header I may be able to add effects which take place only outdoors (via "only outdoors" flag) but I'm not sure yet, will work on it.

 

Moving a spell is a little different than replacing it with something else entirely. In fact, I think Divine Remix already makes this very change. You might want to check that a) you're not reinventing the wheel for nothing and b) that your changes are compatible (removing/replacing spells is quite possibly something that could break DR).

As stated in the readme DR may be slightly "incompatible" with SR exactly because of these changes (there shouldn't be any other "incompatibility" issue). I'll work on it if possible but SR absolutely have to move Conjure Earth Elemental to 6th level, and I would never force SR players to also install DR to have this spell moved, especially when I don't use DR myself either (it's a pretty wonderful mod but it restricts priest's spells repertoire too much imo).

 

At the moment if anyone want to use DR and SR together he may just avoid to install SR's Conjure Earth Elemental. In the future I'll probably add a component to prearrange SR to be fully compatible with Divine Remix (e.g. restoring Conjure Earth Elemental to 7th level so that DR may detect it, checking school/sphere issues, and so on...).

 

About Rigid Thinking, you have almost convinced me on restoring it, stop trying to convince me even more!

[Salk]

Well,

 

as usual, discussion between Miloch and Demivrgvs is very interesting.

 

My points:

 

1) Miloch: I am on his side when he says that Call Lightning should be cast outdoors only (applying the weather change effect suggested by Galactygon).

 

2) Miloch and Demivrgvs: when you guys speak about PnP, I think you both have very valid points. Overall, I would stick with Miloch's idea of eventually tweak the spells according to 2nd Edition AD&D (because I also think that AD&D 2nd Edition is the basis on which the whole game structure is built) but I would allow exception so that in very special cases, PnP from later editions could apply. I think that Demivrgvs is doing an excellent job in this respect although see point 1 for disagreement.

 

3) Demivrgvs: I am on his side when he states that he wants to avoid adding new spell slots. I am not fond of expanding spell slots and I would be extremely cautious about replacing a spell with another. SR replaces very few spells and, according to me, all with good reasons. I would rather see Contagion replace Rigid Thinking than have the first take a new spell slot but it'd be okay anyway.

 

That's it!

[DavidW]

Okay, so here's my list of things to allow for in an SR version of SCS: ...

Anything obvious I've missed? (noting that I'm not trying to redo SCS's AI from scratch to allow for SR, just trying to fill the most obvious holes)

It's fine for me, maybe you could add Hold Person or Animal to druids (though I'm not sure you even use the cleric's lower level version),

I use the cleric version quite a lot in BG1. But at the moment Call Lightning and Summon Insects work pretty well for druids in that slot, so I probably won't add Hold to their lists.

and if you ever restricted yourself on using Animal/Monster Summoning spells I think you may use it more with SR, Lesser Elementals in particular should be pretty powerful in BG1.

I use animal summoning a fair amount. I could code to add Lesser Elementals, I guess, but there are already lots of good L5 spells so I probably won't bother. (As I say, I don't want to do masses of work here, just make sure there are no embarassing AI glitches because of choices that are suboptimal given SR).

I've some questions myself for you:

- Doom: do you prefer vanilla's version or the one I proposed (which is practically Spallpack's one)?

Vanilla, I think. The effect isn't powerful enough to be worth casting if there's a save, and in general I think the game has quite enough save-or-else effects already.

- Summon Insect: am I right assuming you like it to allow a save against 100% spell failure rate?

Well, 100% failure rate with no save is pretty overpowered for L3, so sure.

- Greater Malison: do you prefer BG2 version (-4 to saves), or it's IWD/PnP version (-2 to saves)?

 

In BG1 I don't much mind. In BG2 I think the -2 version is underpowered. (As a general rule, I guess, it's fair to assume that whenever something's modified from PnP in a way that didn't need to be done - e.g. a save modifier being changed - it's at least prima facie a sensible balance choice.)