a couple general questions about arcane magic

[Lemernis]

1) Do Greater Malison and Glitterdust stack?

 

Each lowers the target's saving throws by -4. I presume a successful casting of both spells lowers saving throws by a total -8. But if you cast them repeatedly, do they continue to lower savings throws -4 with each successive casting?

 

2) Does the chance of success with low level spells in BG2 improve as the caster's level increases?

 

I.e., does a level 6 Mage have a substantially better chance of, say, Blindness, succeeding than a Level 1 Mage? Does a level 12 mage have about double the chance of success when casting the spell as a level 6 Mage? Etc.

 

 

 

 

The reason I ask is that I know that the enemies in BG2 get better saving throws. And that makes spells like Blindness and Ghoul Touch arguably not very effective.

 

However! if Greater Malison and Glitterdust are cast... and especially if those two spells stack... and the chance of success with low level spells increases along with caster level... then I would think that many low level spells can continue to be useful though much of BG2.

 

Even if Greater Malison and Glitterdust don't stack, the -8 to saving throws looks like nothing to sneeze at. And if the chance of success improves progressively as the mage increases in level, I'm thinking spells like Blindness ought to continue to be effective well into SoA.

 

I experimented once with a SoA/ToB mage who used Ghoul Touch a lot. I was pleased to see that Ghoul Touch continued to paralzye a wide variety of opponents even as far as the middle of ToB. It was pretty amazing, actually, I was very pleasantly surprised. That's what got me thinking that Blindness might also continue to be effective. Nice for (partially) incapacitating spellcasters. And archers.

[Grunker]

Hey. Does Glitterdust lower saving throws? I wasn't aware, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't. If it does, then according to true AD&D, the penalties wouldn't stack, but I can't say if they would in the game's mechanics.

 

Now as for spells getting a higher chance to succeed as the mage rise in levels, I presume you mean does the spells get harder to resist for enemies? If that's what you're asking, then no. Yours and your enemies' saving throws will continue to rise, but your mage's spells will be as they are in the description. That's what's makes Magic Missile so great

 

Even in the updated D&D 3rd edition and 3.5, your mage's spells do not become harder to resist saving throw-wise.

 

Hope that helped

[coaster]

Dispel and Remove Magic are exceptions - they do have a higher chance of success the higher the level of the mage (relative to the target). Another exception is Spook, the saving throw penalty gets bigger at higher levels.

 

Can't answer the Glitterdust question, it's not a spell I've used much in the past.

[Lemernis]

For reference sake:

 

Glitterdust (Conjuration/Summoning)

Level: 2

Range: 10 yds.

Duration: 4 rounds

Casting Time: 2

Area of Effect: 20 ft

Saving Throw: Special

 

This spell creates a cloud of glittering golden particles within the area of effect. All enemies in the area must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or be blinded (-4 penalties to attack rolls, saving throws, and Armor Class) for 4 rounds. In addition, all within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Note that this reveals invisible creatures. The dust fades in 4 rounds.

 

Greater Malison (Enchantment/Charm)

Level: 4

Range: Visual range of the caster

Duration: 2 rounds/level

Casting Time: 4

Area of Effect: Up to 60-foot cube

Saving Throw: None

 

The spell allows the caster to adversely affect all the saving throws of his enemies. The effect is applied to all hostile creatures within the area of effect. Opponents under the influence of this spell make all saving throws at a penalty of -4.

[coaster]

Well as I have BGTutu running I ran a few tests (clua'd in a Glitterdust scroll then cast it on an opponent, then CTRL-Q'ed the enemy into the party). It looks like Glitterdust does not have any effect on saving throws, with or without Greater Malison (of course as Glitterdust itself has a saving throw, Greater Malison means that the Glitterdust is more likely to blind opponents).

 

Of course as you're probably aware the Greater Malison+Doom combo does stack, and provides a -6 total penalty to saving throws (but Doom is divine, not arcane magic).

[Grunker]

Must be a spelling error in the spell description then. Glitterdust isn't supposed to lower saving throws methinks. Not by four in any case.

[Lemernis]

as for spells getting a higher chance to succeed as the mage rise in levels, I presume you mean does the spells get harder to resist for enemies? If that's what you're asking, then no. Yours and your enemies' saving throws will continue to rise, but your mage's spells will be as they are in the description.

 

Okay, thanks. So it seems lowering saving throws would be the key to getting continued use out of level 1-3 spells in BG2 such as Blindness, Deafness, Ghoul Touch (although as I mentioned, I was very surprised how regularly this succeeded so far into the game--and that was without the benefit of Greater Malison or Glitterdust, for that matter), Dire Charm, Hold Person, and Slow.

[Daulmakan]

Must be a spelling error in the spell description then. Glitterdust isn't supposed to lower saving throws methinks. Not by four in any case.

Why not?

 

P&P version does just that.

[Lemernis]

Must be a spelling error in the spell description then. Glitterdust isn't supposed to lower saving throws methinks. Not by four in any case.

 

It's significantly different in the 3.0 PHB. There a Will saving throw negates the spell.

 

BG2 was developed and released during the transition from 2nd ed. AD&D to ed. 3.0... I don't have the PHB for 2nd ed. AD&D, so I don't know what that description of the spell states.

 

Anyway, I guess Bioware fudged the spell. But I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those cases where the manual is incorrect.

 

Was this addressed in the BG2 Fixpack, maybe? Hard to tell what the designers' intent was. I.e., whether it's a mistake in the manual or something they planned to implement but that failed to make it into the game. (Glitterdust supposedly reducing saving throw by -4, that is.)

[Demivrgvs]

1) Do Greater Malison and Glitterdust stack?

 

There's nothing that can stack in those two spells.

 

Glitterdust causes blindness.

 

Blindness was supposed to cause -4 to thac0, AC and saves.

 

Blindness opcode effectively causes -10 to thac0, and it's hardcoded to do it.

 

I suppose Fixpack can do very little about it.

 

2) Does the chance of success with low level spells in BG2 improve as the caster's level increases?

 

Generally speaking, no. Dispel and Spook, as already mentioned are rare exceptions.

[Lemernis]

Thanks!

 

Description of Blindness reads as follows:

 

Blindness

(Illusion/Phantasm)

Level: 1

Range: Visual range of caster

Duration: 10 turns

Casting Time: 2

Area of Effect: 1 creature

Saving Throw: Neg.

 

This first level spell temporarily blinds its target. A saving throw is allowed, and if successful there are no harmful effects. If a victim is blinded he receives -4 to hit on his attack rolls, and has a 4 point armor penalty.

 

There's no mention of -4 to saving throws, but it's actually in there? (Not challenging what you're saying, just seeking clarification.)

 

I didn't realize Spook can reduce saving throws up to -6 (for a 12th level caster). I've never even tried the spell. I will check it out now. Along with Greater Malison that's -10 to saving throws.

 

Sounds like from coaster's playtest Glitterdust doesn't reduce saving throws, but is there any further confirnation? How does one test this?

[Demivrgvs]

Description of Blindness reads as follows: ...

That description is incorrect, as all blinding spells does what I've already said (-10 to thac0, and minimum visual range).

 

I didn't realize Spook can reduce saving throws up to -6 (for a 12th level caster). I've never even tried the spell. I will check it out now. Along with Greater Malison that's -10 to saving throws.

Spook save penalty is applied only to spook itself. It doesn't lower target's saves for other spells.

[Lemernis]

Okay, thanks for the info!

[Grunker]

Must be a spelling error in the spell description then. Glitterdust isn't supposed to lower saving throws methinks. Not by four in any case.

Why not?

 

P&P version does just that.

 

Ok, I just got my old, tarnished version of 2nd Ed. out from a cardboard-box, and I stand corrected! Glitterdust does indeed cause lowered saves.

[Splunge]

2) Does the chance of success with low level spells in BG2 improve as the caster's level increases?

There is a component in the BG2 Tweak Pack ("Add Save Penalties for Spells Cast by High-Level Casters ") that does this.