Disintegrate spell improvement needed

[Strontium Dog]

One issue I have with with this mod is that it enhances the flesh to stone spell with a -5 saving-throw penalty, but , while it gives a -6 penalty to saving-throws for the equivalent level-6 spell Disintegrate, the target no longer gets disintegrated but only suffers 100 points magic damage. This seems a bit absurd as the whole point of the disintegrate spell is to annihilate the target in one go.

[Demivrgvs]

One issue I have with with this mod is that it enhances the flesh to stone spell with a -5 saving-throw penalty, but , while it gives a -6 penalty to saving-throws for the equivalent level-6 spell Disintegrate,

Actually unless my current version is more updated than yours, both spells have -5 penalty.

...the target no longer gets disintegrated but only suffers 100 points magic damage. This seems a bit absurd as the whole point of the disintegrate spell is to annihilate the target in one go.

Well, 3rd edition PnP and NWN did the same thing, the damage output there is up to 40d6 (140 points on average) but characters have much more hit points in 3rd edition (they still get hit point dices after 10th level, and they still continue to benefit from constitution). I think most enemies do are annihilated by 100 points of magical damage, and with a -5 penalty the spell is already going to be much more useful than before imo (not to mention it doesn't destroy the loot anymore, and it can be used to "easily" destroy Mordenkainen Swords).

 

Does anyone else think the current damage output is too low?

 

What I have already planned for V3 is to make it inflict a reduced amount of damage even upon a successful save.

[Icendoan]

100 HP kills all but bosses and dragons, really. A few other enemies, particularly in ToB, would get off quite lightly. Fire Giants have a lot of HP.

 

200 wouldn't make much high-end difference, but make the spell far more effective.

 

Icen

[Shaitan]

100 HP kills all but bosses and dragons, really. A few other enemies, particularly in ToB, would get off quite lightly. Fire Giants have a lot of HP.

 

Unless anyone uses the highest HP mod from BG2tweaks

[Guest D. U. Bertie]

How much of a difference does the highest HP mod from BG2tweaks make to enemies? What sort of increase are we talking about?

[Shaitan]

AFAIR every creature comes with a number of HitDie, ie 12d12 or something like that. I assume the mod just uses the highest possible number...

[Icendoan]

Well, my point still stands. It will only help kill things better even with such an increase in HP. Bosses however, remain delightfully able to survive this little assault.

 

Icen

[Ardanis]

Does anyone else think the current damage output is too low?

I've already pointed out the 40d6 thing as more random (I don't like much the all-or-nothing randomness, but dealing with the exact nimbers is imo too good either).

Still the point about more HP in 3E is solid.

 

My suggestion a month ago was 3d3/lvl=60d3=~120

[Guest AzureDrag0n1]

Why did you nerf disintegrate? It is worse than before. What, it does not destroy items now?

 

Energy drain.... You know if this spell did like -6 levels it might be worth a level 2 or 3 slot. Current level drain is not worth a level 1 slot. It is that bad. Give me some real combat situation where level drain would even be remotely useful?

 

How about fixing Comet to not be affected by magic resist and Bigby Fist so that the level 9 version is actually better than the level 8 version?

[Shaitan]

My suggestion a month ago was 3d3/lvl=60d3=~120

 

...and it still seems reasonable...

[Raj]

I like the spell and the animation but I learnt to not rely much on Disintegrate, after a lot of testing and a embarassing number of successful saves from the only worthwhile enemies.

It's a level 6 single target spell so I won't be wasting it against 'regular' enemies because they come in packs and a comparable summon of that level ( invisible stalker/great elementals ) can play with the fodder.

Chain Lighting on the other hand does the job better against mages bypassing some protections ( protection from lighting is less common than pro magic energy, and it's a area spell so often you don't need to dispell their defences first ) and always dealing some damage, around 70 or the half on a successful save at the highest levels.

Disintegrate really needs some help with minor damage on a successful save, if nothing else just to disturb mages ( expecially liches, this is one of the few damage spells supposed to work against them ) spellcasting after you dropped their spell and specific protections.

Against no-mages opponents, I can't think of many creatures worth a level 6 spell that have 100 or less hp ( expecially with scs2 'more staying' components and SR summons, fiends have 150-200 hp, SoA dragons around 500 ) so in many situations if I'm interested in soften them a bit then a couple of skull traps or fire arrows do the job better and cheaper.

Mordy swords can be dispatched with some magic missles or a death spell without a save so disintegrate looks like a poor alternative.

The more I look at the spell the more it looks like the poor man alternative to finger of death, while it deserves being unique as a single target heavy damaging spell.

Actually the 3ed Disintegrate ( 2d6/lvl dmg up to 40d6, or 5d6 on a successful save afaik ) doesn't look so much unbalancing to me; making it scaleable with levels is a secondary benefit too.

[Strontium Dog]

That's odd, even though I've played NWN, I don't recall disintegrate being a damaging spell as opposed to an annihilating spell. That's silly to have nerfed this spell - hopefully, they've changed that for the 4th edition AD&D.

 

 

I actually always use the maximum hit-point component as that adds something to the game(enemies seem ridiculously nerfed re hit-point totals, otherwise too easy to kill), so your version of disintegrate is not effective with that added. Also, I should add that 1 mod within the big world project installation prevents all items from being disintegrated, but still allows disintegration of NPCs.

 

I agree with the other poster that energy-drain is a useless spell unless it takes away lots of energy-levels and it only targets one creature, when it should taget several. Perhaps one solution would be to, instead, conjure up a black cloud (like shadow-dragon-breath but permanent) which would cause target creatures to lose 2 energy-levels every round they're still within the cloud. Or one could have an energy-drain touch spell whereby the spell lasts 1 round per level, during which all sucessful caster-touch attacks drain enemies of 2-4 levels.

 

 

Also the 9th level Bigby's spell seems to be heavily nerfed. Wasn't the original 4d10 damage per round(OK it wasn't set at -6 saving-throws, though).

 

Suggestion for future mods:- (7th level) Malek Keth's Flame Fist(from 2nd-edition tome of magic). Caster has a flame-filled fist for 1 round/level, every time he hits a target the target saves or gets covered by a shroud of flame which deals (1d4 hp-damage per caster-level/per round - flames are contagious with others within 5 feet having to save or get affected the same way). A sort of more powerful version of the 5th level shroud of flame spell which spell-pack mod has(but which, sadly, can't be installed with SCS).

[Demivrgvs]

Disintegrate

I like the spell and the animation but I learnt to not rely much on Disintegrate, after a lot of testing and a embarassing number of successful saves from the only worthwhile enemies.

...

That is partially a really good news for me , as my main worry about SR high level spells was the effectiveness of -5/-6 save penalties. Vanilla's "no penalty" was causing spells like Disintegrate to be completely useless, but still I wouldn't like a 6th spell to be able to kill bosses most of the times with a single cast. Raising the damage as per 3rd edition should be more than enough right? Anyway the most appealing feature imo is the ability to deal damage even on a successful save.

 

Energy Drain

Energy drain.... You know if this spell did like -6 levels it might be worth a level 2 or 3 slot. Current level drain is not worth a level 1 slot. It is that bad. Give me some real combat situation where level drain would even be remotely useful?

I agree with the other poster that energy-drain is a useless spell unless it takes away lots of energy-levels and it only targets one creature, when it should taget several. Perhaps one solution would be to, instead, conjure up a black cloud (like shadow-dragon-breath but permanent) which would cause target creatures to lose 2 energy-levels every round they're still within the cloud. Or one could have an energy-drain touch spell whereby the spell lasts 1 round per level, during which all sucessful caster-touch attacks drain enemies of 2-4 levels.

I do find it still a little unappealing (though surely not as weak as the guest is suggesting), and that is why I proposed to make it as per Unearthed Arcana, which means adding a sort of Vampiric effect beneficial to the caster (appropriate imo considering the spell is named "drain").

 

Both your proposed changes are neither balanced nor implementable. I admit though that I like both ideas from a conceptual point of view, especially the latter.

The former would be the most devastating AoE spell ever created imo, considering very few creatures can resist a "level drain" effect, and most of them would simply die in a matter of 5-7 rounds.

The latter would allow a fighter/mage to kill almost anyone in more or less 2 rounds. To make it balanced it should be "limited" to 1-2 levels, and with a save to avoid it on each hit.

Both are not implementable as they would seriously screw the AI, which is unable to know the spell has been completely changed from a 1target spell to an AoE or Touch spell respectively.

 

P.S I did a few tests long ago to check how much a drained level affects a target, but unfortunately I don't remember it anymore, I'll check it again. Anyway I do recall it being very effective, and probably it has negative effects on thac0, hit points, saves, memorized spells, and so on.

 

Bigby's Crushing Hand

Also the 9th level Bigby's spell seems to be heavily nerfed. Wasn't the original 4d10 damage per round(OK it wasn't set at -6 saving-throws, though).

Please, saying it has been "heavily nerfed" is incredibly untrue.

 

Vanilla's Version:

- 3 rounds

- total damage 9D10

- a single successful save at -4 allowed to reduce damage to 3D10 and avoid being held

- all saves were made in the first round, and the save at -4 automatically implied successfully saving against the other save at -2

 

SR's Version:

- lasts 10 rounds (more than three times longer)

- up to 20D10 points of damage (more than the double)

- target may save to avoid damage/hold for that particular round, but each following round another save is required

- all saves are made at -6 penalty (targets have to save 10 times to completely avoid the spell!)

 

I really can't see how it can be less powerful than before.

 

P.S Is it more effective "hold creature" opcode or "stun"?

 

Comet

How about fixing Comet to not be affected by magic resist...

Actually it already bypasses magic resistance, though I would call it a "fix".

[Raj]

[ot]

That's odd, even though I've played NWN, I don't recall disintegrate being a damaging spell as opposed to an annihilating spell.

 

Because there is no Disintegration spell in NWN. Some modules with the PRC had its own version but it worked following the 3ed rules. [/ot]

[Guest D. U. Bertie]

AFAIR every creature comes with a number of HitDie, ie 12d12 or something like that. I assume the mod just uses the highest possible number...

But can anyone give me an idea how much more difficult the higher HP component makes the game? Will dragons go from roughly 300HP to 500HP? Will all enemies be that much more difficult to kill?