Version 8: A bug report and ... errata?

[Mahokenshi]

Well, after a long break, I've given the BG series another go, and seeing as how SCSII went through six versions of revisions since last time, I installed that too.

 

Thanks for the "no neutral prebuff" option. I really don't think I could have played through again watching the Sigil Troupe put on their play in full arcane kevlar.

 

Thanks also for the "enemies don't always know where the party is, even if they have never seen them" tweak as well. I like to use thieves, and having enemies bull rush my distant party after my thief backstabs then gulps an invisibility potion was really cramping my fun.

 

First, I had a rather significant bug with the "do watchers keep between SoA and ToB" component, though. In my current playthrough, I had brought Yoshimo along. When I went to Watcher's Keep in chapter 3, the game transferred to Throne of Bhall, and Yoshimo was killed and removed from my party. Maybe there could be a different way to go about this component? Like a dialogue option with Queen Ellesime at the ending ceremony or something?

 

Secondly, I also noticed a couple of things that I'd like to comment on. First and easiest, one of the miscellaneous encounters improvements removes the arrows of dispelling from the game. Shouldn't this be an item tweak for the item section? Some of the enhancements look like fun, but those arrows will be the only anti mage defence that certain party builds will have (multi class heavy party, a party without an Inquisitor, a party with a PC who is of a class with a stronghold quest - the quest they're likely to try first - made much harder by the smarter mages, etc.)

 

 

Thirdly, the 35th level liches. Thirdly indeed, as my post seems to be the third thread in a row alluding to the fact that these guys are just too much for a game where you start off 7th level and, for mage, ranger, and paladin characters, never get as high as 35th level (or only do so in the last couple of gaming hours for most others.) These guys are way too much. Buffing liches to 35th level gives them the following powers they don't normally get:

 

-they are immune to turn undead. Well, not totally immune, but close enough. Yeah, that makes them easy, but it seems rather harsh to begin removing their undead weaknesses willy-nilly while leaving their strengths (immunity to certain spells, super saving throws, etc) intact.

-they are immune to dispel/remove magic cast from any pc controlled mage ever.

-they are immune to dispel magic cast by any cleric or bard below 6 million xp or so.

-their own dispel/remove magic spells will pretty much always work.

-they are immune to the dispel magic of any SoA level inquisitor.

 

It's pretty clear that liches were meant to be fought by SoA parties. In fact, there's a lich in spellhold the party might not be able to avoid. Even without the hardest monster spawn, a PC at about 16th level or so (based on my personal experience, not sure the exact level needed) will trigger the spellhold lich. As it stands now, I would need a lunar sized chunk of cheese to beat the spellhold lich with a 16th level party, and I can handle the SCSII human(oid) mages without too much trouble (at least for that part of the game.)

 

It would be great if the liches could be made an optional component as well. Or even if they could be given new mage scripts without the level buffing (except that one poor schome set at 11th level. Yeah, he should be 19th level at least like his buddies.) As it is I had to make copies of all the lich .cre files, install the mod, and then put my copies back in the override folder.

 

One last thing, I suppose. It would be great if mages/clerics cast divination spells in relation to if they can hear your stealthed or invisible characters. Setting the rate from 100% to 25% was nice, but it doesn't seem fair that you can have Korgan chug a potion of invisibility and clomp around in full plate, and be detected only as often as a thief who the player took the time to build up a decent move silently rating. A mage should always be able to hear the former, and only hear the latter if they don't make a move silently check. That would be a lot of effort to code, I imagine, but it would make thieves still feel like thieves, while not allowing a player to charge at NPC mages or clerics with a bunch of invisible fighters in full plate armor, and having this WORK 3/4ths of the time.

 

That's all, really. Happy holidays.

[Raj]

The lich in spellhold is a random encounter that triggers if your protagonist has 2 millions xp or more.

There're other similar undead encounters ( two in the temple ruins, one in the ghoul lord cave afaik ).

Try avoid these areas if you already meet the xp requirements or go there before 2kk xp.

If you don't like too much metagaming you could remove the lich editing the SPWNDEAD.BCS script, just find it with Near Infinity and delete the lich line ( because it's a bit silly to spawn boss-rated creatures as random encounters, there're already too many liches around and keeping the named ones only seems reasonable to me ).

[aVENGER_(RR)]

One last thing, I suppose. It would be great if mages/clerics cast divination spells in relation to if they can hear your stealthed or invisible characters. Setting the rate from 100% to 25% was nice, but it doesn't seem fair that you can have Korgan chug a potion of invisibility and clomp around in full plate, and be detected only as often as a thief who the player took the time to build up a decent move silently rating. A mage should always be able to hear the former, and only hear the latter if they don't make a move silently check. That would be a lot of effort to code, I imagine, but it would make thieves still feel like thieves, while not allowing a player to charge at NPC mages or clerics with a bunch of invisible fighters in full plate armor, and having this WORK 3/4ths of the time.

 

David, if you decide to implement this in SCSII, feel free to borrow the code from RR v4.02 (and adapt it to your needs as you see fit) in case it could save you some work. Here's an example:

 

IF
Global("RR#Active","LOCALS",0)
Global("RR#Alert","LOCALS",0)
!Global("RR#STI_SPATH","GLOBAL",1) // Stealth path indicator		
!GlobalTimerNotExpired("RR#Cast","LOCALS")
!See([GOODCUTOFF])
Detect([GOODCUTOFF])
CheckStatLT(LastSeenBy(Myself),40,STEALTH) // Move Silently
!StateCheck(LastSeenBy(Myself),STATE_SILENCED)
Range(LastSeenBy(Myself),15)
HaveSpell(CLERIC_TRUE_SIGHT)
CheckStat(Myself,0,TRUE_SIGHT)
CheckStatLT(Myself,50,SPELLFAILUREPRIEST)
!StateCheck(Myself,STATE_SILENCED)
!CheckStatGT(Myself,0,CLERIC_INSECT_PLAGUE)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
	SetGlobal("RR#Alert","LOCALS",1)
	SetGlobalTimer("RR#Cast","LOCALS",5) // the last second of the round is wasted on SmallWait()
	SetGlobalTimer("RR#Alerted","LOCALS",18)
	FaceObject(LastSeenBy(Myself))
	DisplayStringHead(Myself,71191) // Is someone there?
	SmallWait(10) // dramatic pause
	Spell(Myself,CLERIC_TRUE_SIGHT)
END

IF
Global("RR#Active","LOCALS",0)
Global("RR#Alert","LOCALS",1)
GlobalTimerExpired("RR#Alerted","LOCALS")
!See([GOODCUTOFF])
THEN
RESPONSE #100
	SetGlobal("RR#Alert","LOCALS",0)
	Face(0)
	DisplayStringHead(Myself,12670) // No, it is nothing.
END

 

This block is used by one of the STI Cleric/Mages so it's a bit stealth path specific, but I think you should be able to get a rough outline of what you could use for SCSII. Basically, it checks whether the nearest invisible party member has the Move Silently score of at least 40 or if he has been magically silenced and prevents the casting of a divination spell in both cases.

[coaster]

they are immune to dispel/remove magic cast from any pc controlled mage ever.

 

Is this right? With the ToB level cap a mage maxes out at level 31, 4 levels lower than a 35th level lich. Base dispel % = 50%, deducting 10% per level difference = a 10% chance of dispelling. Not high, but not "immune" either.

 

Admittedly, for a mage to be hitting the ToB level cap in SoA in a party-based game would be a tall order. But if you have "more consistent Breach" installed, you should be able to breach liches anyway (although you will still have to remove other spell protections for the Breach to take effect).

[Mahokenshi]

they are immune to dispel/remove magic cast from any pc controlled mage ever.

 

Is this right? With the ToB level cap a mage maxes out at level 31, 4 levels lower than a 35th level lich. Base dispel % = 50%, deducting 10% per level difference = a 10% chance of dispelling. Not high, but not "immune" either.

 

Admittedly, for a mage to be hitting the ToB level cap in SoA in a party-based game would be a tall order. But if you have "more consistent Breach" installed, you should be able to breach liches anyway (although you will still have to remove other spell protections for the Breach to take effect).

 

No, I am wrong and you are right. But still, at the very tippy top of the XP cap, dispel does have a small chance to work (unless you're an inquisitor in ToB). But 10% hardly seems like a workable combat tactic, so the spell is not a practical one for the PC to use.

 

Thanks for the spell advice. The only thing is, it can be a pain to go lich hunting, as the high level spell protection removers are hard to come by. You can buy pierce magic (level 6 one), and get a warding whip from the planar sphere, but I wasn't sure if they are enough. You could also go far enough into watchers keep to get Spellstriking wands too.

 

By the way I have tried fighting liches with the component installed.

 

I just finished my game yesterday, and even with a party led by a character I soloed Tutu with (and thus who got all the NPCs to spawn at their highest level), I still had half my party not hit the XP cap, including my mage, who was level 30 at the final fight. When I don't solo Tutu, I usually have between 6.5 - 7 million XP by the end.

 

Thanks for the idea, Raj. I might do for my next runthrough, although I'll miss the XP . I still think it would be great for the lich bit to be an optional component, though.

[DavidW]

Thanks for the comments, some quick replies:

 

- the "enemies don't always know where the party is, even if they have never seen them" stuff still isn't perfect, but I think it's a bit better in the current version.

 

- I've had a couple of reports of odd WK bugs of the sort you mention. Something to fix for the next component; until then, the workaround is not to install that component unless you plan to do WK between SoA and ToB. (And I suppose if you want to do part of it early, part late, you should install the component partway through.)

 

- The 35th-level liches issue is an old debate; I won't rehash too much of it here. Suffice it to say that (a) that level is actually implied by their in-game spell lists, but (b) it's fairly clear this ought to be broken into its own component sooner or later, and © nonetheless, you can defeat liches in SoA with a bit of work and witohut metagaming (it might be a long fight, though, and you'll probably take casualties).

 

- I agree, the "remove arrows of dispelling" should probably be an item component.

 

- stealth sensitivity: nice idea in principle, but I'm getting nervous at the sheer length and complexity of SCSII mage/priest spells, so I'm unsure I want to add this extra detail. I'll think about it.

[Guest Guest_Loz_*]

Thanks for the comments, some quick replies:

 

- the "enemies don't always know where the party is, even if they have never seen them" stuff still isn't perfect, but I think it's a bit better in the current version.

 

- I've had a couple of reports of odd WK bugs of the sort you mention. Something to fix for the next component; until then, the workaround is not to install that component unless you plan to do WK between SoA and ToB. (And I suppose if you want to do part of it early, part late, you should install the component partway through.)

 

- The 35th-level liches issue is an old debate; I won't rehash too much of it here. Suffice it to say that (a) that level is actually implied by their in-game spell lists, but (b) it's fairly clear this ought to be broken into its own component sooner or later, and © nonetheless, you can defeat liches in SoA with a bit of work and witohut metagaming (it might be a long fight, though, and you'll probably take casualties).

 

- I agree, the "remove arrows of dispelling" should probably be an item component.

 

- stealth sensitivity: nice idea in principle, but I'm getting nervous at the sheer length and complexity of SCSII mage/priest spells, so I'm unsure I want to add this extra detail. I'll think about it.

 

If the whole mage levels getting buffed thing was put into a seperate component, perhaps it would be nice to have some option of only some getting level buffed ala high level ability "special boss characters" list. I have no problem with kangaxx and jon getting buffed in levels, though i find barely named liches(elemental lich. shade lich etc) and random mages getting buffed a little less great. On top of that it makes the difference in fight difficulty between random mages and real bosses less noticeable. Also you might want to take a look at shangalar, last i checked for some reason he had considerably less levels and spells than all the other liches in the game, stange since he is supposed to be one of the most powerful liches. I am aware he has a limited spellbook in the vanilla game and that scsii works mostly on automaton, but perhaps a buff to shangalars spell list could be done via the improved twisted rune component.

 

Also I was still hoping on something being done with insect plague, in particular the level 5 variant is just far far too strong. It completely disables all spellcasters in its area for 6 rounds with little to stop it. Using this on jon and other high level mages makes for pretty boring fights. Just to let you know i tried playing the game through once just removing the cast failure from insect plague and creeping doom and it worked really well. Hoping to see something on insect plague soon!

[Mahokenshi]

Thanks for the comments, some quick replies:

 

- the "enemies don't always know where the party is, even if they have never seen them" stuff still isn't perfect, but I think it's a bit better in the current version.

 

- I've had a couple of reports of odd WK bugs of the sort you mention. Something to fix for the next component; until then, the workaround is not to install that component unless you plan to do WK between SoA and ToB. (And I suppose if you want to do part of it early, part late, you should install the component partway through.)

 

- The 35th-level liches issue is an old debate; I won't rehash too much of it here. Suffice it to say that (a) that level is actually implied by their in-game spell lists, but (b) it's fairly clear this ought to be broken into its own component sooner or later, and © nonetheless, you can defeat liches in SoA with a bit of work and witohut metagaming (it might be a long fight, though, and you'll probably take casualties).

 

- I agree, the "remove arrows of dispelling" should probably be an item component.

 

- stealth sensitivity: nice idea in principle, but I'm getting nervous at the sheer length and complexity of SCSII mage/priest spells, so I'm unsure I want to add this extra detail. I'll think about it.

 

Just to clarify: I agree that the new version of AI tracking when it comes to invisible party members is better. That wasn't meant as snark.

 

As for the liches, I can certainly understand what you mean; shadowkeeper at least shows them knowing 6 9th level spells, which would make them ... a 35th level specialist mage. But, like pre-buffing, if there were room to agree to disagree (ie optional install) then more people would be happy. Well, I'd be happy; and something as simple as an on/off switch (ie they get nothing or everything) would still be a pretty big customization option.

 

I had thought stealth might have been a tall order. Maybe, if you wanted to take the time to code it, you could add something to thieves if they're scripts aren't already massive, so that they could use their detect illusion ability on the PCs. I noticed the thief in the underdark adventuring party (where you get the Dragon's Breath halberd) doing something like that.

 

Edit: Thanks for taking time from your holiday to answer. I always play with SCSI, and I appriciate all the work you've done.

[DavidW]

Just to clarify: I agree that the new version of AI tracking when it comes to invisible party members is better. That wasn't meant as snark.

I know; I didn't take it that way.

 

As for the liches, I can certainly understand what you mean; shadowkeeper at least shows them knowing 6 9th level spells, which would make them ... a 35th level specialist mage.

Yes, that's how the algorithm works. But to be fair, it doesn't allow for the fact that the game sometimes gives creatures "useless" spells that they don't actually cast, and which are probably just leftovers from hasty design work.

 

But, like pre-buffing, if there were room to agree to disagree (ie optional install) then more people would be happy. Well, I'd be happy; and something as simple as an on/off switch (ie they get nothing or everything) would still be a pretty big customization option.

The problem is that the existing game levels (e.g. the 11th level lich) are so badly broken that I have to do something. Probably I should just generate a list of caster levels and do some manual adjustments for the excessive ones.

 

Edit: Thanks for taking time from your holiday to answer. I always play with SCSI, and I appriciate all the work you've done.

You're welcome; glad you're enjoying it.

[lac]

re insect plague:

 

check out Spell Revisions

[Guest Guest_Loz_*]

re insect plague:

 

check out Spell Revisions

 

I don't really want to change every single spell in the game just because i don't like insect plague. As it stands, i am very happy with pretty much all the spells except insect plague and (non-scsii) breach. I have looked at spell revisions but there are alot of things in there i don't like. From changing summons to nerfing mage defences(read SI stacking) and such I just can't get into it. Perhaps these changes make the game more balanced but I prefer a classic BG2 experience when i play and spells are a big part of that. On the other hand insect plague makes every mage fight trivial for me - this i feel needs adressing.