Revised Summons Discussion

[Raiken]

Hi, I had some suggestions for the summons based on the stats in the Revised Summons thread.

 

Elementals:

 

Looking at the stats on the air elementals they do the least the damage (even taking into account they have an extra attack), but their AC bonus isn't much better to offset this disadvantage. I thought the various air elementals could have bonus electrical damage to give them a boost and also make then more useful. Seeing as Chan has electricity immunity I figured it fits in with the theme and the lesser elementals could have electricity immunity as well? Perhaps the electrical damage bonuses could be 1D4 for 8HD, 1d4+2 for 12HD, 2D4 for 16 HD and 3D4 for Chan?

 

Oh, and is Sunnis meant to be the 'princess' of air, or prince like the other two?

 

Djinni:

 

To offset the fact that Efreeti do more damage, have fire immunity and have more offensive spells, perhaps a Djinni could do 3 attacks per round? Plus in keeping with the element of air that they are from they could have electrical immunity?

 

Invisible Stalker:

 

I think they could use a boost due to the fact they are summoned at the same spell level as Aerial Servants and potentially 16HD air elementals. Obviously they have the ability to attack whilst invisible (does this give +4 on the first attack?) but a general increase in HD's, HP's and THACO could give them more staying power. Once under direct attack they probably won't last long and only have an adavantage while being able to attack without being seen (and true seeing not being uncommon can put paid to that, but would permanent non-detection help?). Obviously they aren't meant to be combat powerhouses but I feel they need something more to be as good as the elemental spells at level 6. I also think the duration of the spell (if its still 8 hours) isn't a worthwhile trade off for power as you can't take summons through area transitions.

 

Wyvern:

 

Again, as with the Invisible Stalker they could use a boost of HD's, HP's, THACO and potentially AC. The 4 attacks and poison are good as well as the immunities but they lack the invisibilty of the stalker and the defences/hitpoints of the elementals. And I would actually be tempted to reduce the effectiveness of the poison, as that would be 120 damage in 1 minute and the save modifier of -4 is quite a lot (especially if the target had to potentially save against it 4 times per round). Perhaps halve the duration and save modifier, and make the damage 3hp per round. I think with boosted combat abilities and 4 attacks, even a weaker poison could still be effective (as the wyvern would be more likely to hit the target) and when facing creatures immune to poison the wyvern can still be reasonable in combat.

 

Again, as with Invisible Stalkers they aren't meant to be deadly in combat through brute force so I wouldn't expect stats akin to 16HD elementals or and Aerial Servant. Its just when I summoned them in BG2 for the first time I was expecting something like the Greater Wyverns in Durlag's Tower and not the ones that are easy to kill in the Cloakwood.

 

Nymph:

 

Didn't these have mass cure as standard in BG2?

[Raj]

you can't take summons through area transitions.

 

About this, I remember using g3minions and those were able to follow you through transictions. Can it be re-implemented?

 

Nymph: Didn't these have mass cure as standard in BG2?

 

Yes they did, but I guess it has been removed because it was a level 5 summon casting a level 5 spell, so that it was pointless to memorize mass cure when you could use a nymph.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm moving here a discussion started on the truly massive "Plans for future release" topic because summons deserve a dedicated topic to discuss the immense possibilities they offer, and I'm quite sure we'll continue to improve them after V3.

Elementals

Looking at the stats on the air elementals they do the least the damage (even taking into account they have an extra attack), but their AC bonus isn't much better to offset this disadvantage. I thought the various air elementals could have bonus electrical damage to give them a boost and also make then more useful. Seeing as Chan has electricity immunity I figured it fits in with the theme and the lesser elementals could have electricity immunity as well? Perhaps the electrical damage bonuses could be 1D4 for 8HD, 1d4+2 for 12HD, 2D4 for 16 HD and 3D4 for Chan?

I think you're understimating Air Elementals. They move very quickly now, they have the best thac0 and AC amongst elementals, and their +1apr is extremely effective imo. Anyway I'll look into it.

 

Oh, and is Sunnis meant to be the 'princess' of air, or prince like the other two?

Princess is correct, it's PnP lore that veteran players may appreciate.

 

Djinni

To offset the fact that Efreeti do more damage, have fire immunity and have more offensive spells, perhaps a Djinni could do 3 attacks per round? Plus in keeping with the element of air that they are from they could have electrical immunity?

I'm favourable to add them an attack per round yes, but I'm less inclined to add electrical immunity because they never had it in any PnP edition and game. I generally try to avoid any changes that goes against the well established lore.

 

Invisible Stalker

I think they could use a boost due to the fact they are summoned at the same spell level as Aerial Servants and potentially 16HD air elementals. Obviously they have the ability to attack whilst invisible (does this give +4 on the first attack?) but a general increase in HD's, HP's and THACO could give them more staying power. Once under direct attack they probably won't last long and only have an adavantage while being able to attack without being seen (and true seeing not being uncommon can put paid to that, but would permanent non-detection help?). Obviously they aren't meant to be combat powerhouses but I feel they need something more to be as good as the elemental spells at level 6.

Actually I have to slightly nerf them right now, because in V2 they remain completely unseen even after a successful attack! I'll make sure their invisibility can't be dispelled by True Seeing and similar effects but without its permanent complete invisibility the Stalker is going to be very vulnerable despite the good AC.

 

I had an idea long ago that I discarded fearing to create a too different version of the original creature: making it an actual "stalker" by adding the ability to hide in shadows and backstab. I'd like to know how most players would feel about it...

 

I also think the duration of the spell (if its still 8 hours) isn't a worthwhile trade off for power as you can't take summons through area transitions.

About this, I remember using g3minions and those were able to follow you through transictions. Can it be re-implemented?

I wasn't aware of this g3minion's feature, are you sure about it? If it can be implemented without too much trouble I'll obviously do it!

 

Wyvern

Again, as with the Invisible Stalker they could use a boost of HD's, HP's, THACO and potentially AC. The 4 attacks and poison are good as well as the immunities but they lack the invisibilty of the stalker and the defences/hitpoints of the elementals. And I would actually be tempted to reduce the effectiveness of the poison, as that would be 120 damage in 1 minute and the save modifier of -4 is quite a lot (especially if the target had to potentially save against it 4 times per round). Perhaps halve the duration and save modifier, and make the damage 3hp per round. I think with boosted combat abilities and 4 attacks, even a weaker poison could still be effective (as the wyvern would be more likely to hit the target) and when facing creatures immune to poison the wyvern can still be reasonable in combat.

 

Again, as with Invisible Stalkers they aren't meant to be deadly in combat through brute force so I wouldn't expect stats akin to 16HD elementals or and Aerial Servant. Its just when I summoned them in BG2 for the first time I was expecting something like the Greater Wyverns in Durlag's Tower and not the ones that are easy to kill in the Cloakwood.

Only the sting is venomous, thus 1/4 of its attacks, and the poison was intended to be lethal, but I may reduce the damage dealt if most of you think it's better. With 4apr this summon can surely deal a lot of damage if it's not thrown into the first line carelessy. The only thing that truly concern me is the moderately low hit points, and without some serious playtesting I cannot understand if it makes the wyvern too easy to be taken down.

 

Nymph

Nymph: Didn't these have mass cure as standard in BG2?

Yes they did, but I guess it has been removed because it was a level 5 summon casting a level 5 spell, so that it was pointless to memorize mass cure when you could use a nymph.

Actually it was a level 4 summon casting a level 5 spell!

[Raiken]

Ah, I didn't realise the air elementals moved quicker now (as I've been going based on stats on the forum), so I can see that giving them something different over the other two elementals. Though you say they have the best THACO of the three elementals, on paper they have the same THACO as earth elementals. Is the actual THACO in game lower due to stats?

 

And fair comment about the djinni and no electricity resistance. Looking at their spellbook they have some defensive spells to aid them and make them harder to hit as opposed to the efreeti's spells that are damaged based.

 

I really like the idea of the invisible stalker hiding in shadows and backstabbing. Could it be possible for the players to control the backstabbing manually too? If it being permanently invisible is making it too effective now and it can't survive without it, then perhaps your backstabbing idea will give it a different role from other level 6 summons. It probably wouldn't need much in the way of a backstab multiplier, say x2 or at most x3. Also seen as you can't hide in shadows in sight of enemies I'm assuming it will need some means to go invisible after it attacks?

 

And perhaps the wyverns poison isn't too much if its only 1/4 of its attacks. I assumed it was all 4. If it can attack without being hit itself then it may even prove effective in the later stages of the game. As with the Invisible Stalker, perhaps they are better designed to fulfill a certain role or have a unique ability to set them apart from the general combat summons like the elementals.

 

And while you make a fair comment about the nymph using a level 5 spell, mass cure is more effective when cast by party members as they will be higher level than the nymph and generally tougher. Given how fragile they are I though that mass cure gave it something a little extra to make them worth using, though this was in vanilla BG2. Perhaps with altered spells and improved scripting, they'll be better. I however did find when your dealing with targets that throw out a lot of AoE attacks the nymph died to easily to bother with.

 

Another idea that may work across all summoning spells that don't have it, is to have the summons increase in power as the caster levels up. Lets be honest, in vanilla BG2 no one uses animate dead until level 15 when you get the skeleton warrior, and while spider spawn does increase in power I never found them to be worth it. I think if you did that for all summons then you could balance them for early, mid and the late stages. Obviously I don't think that spider spawn should summon spiders as tough as a Deva but use the spiders found in Watchers Keep as a basis for the top level summons when using spider spawn.

 

As I said before about invisible stalkers and wyverns, you could have summons that have a specific role or ability and they shouldn't take away from the really powerfull all-round summons like the Devas/Planetars/Elementals/Demons. If summons with a 'role' are used properly they should still be good, but obviously they become less effective outside of the role they're designed for.

 

Edit: Obviously nishruu and hakeashars are already well designed for specific roles, and they also make good tanks with the 50% physical damage resistance.

 

Of course this does increase your workload.

[Icendoan]

What role can Wyverns play? The ability to make them "fly", or go over some solid areas would be cool, but AFAIK impossible.

 

Icen

[Raj]

I don't use summons a lot but I remember the summon undeads being fair decent before level 15 when duoing with viconia, mostly because the cheap fodder skeletons were confusing the enemy and blocking the path, but their damage is abysmal; while it's fine for level 3 divine, I woudn't waste a level 5 arcane slot before level 15.

 

The worst summoning spells are the monster summoning ones: Hobgoblins/Gnolls/Ogres, unlike the little skeletons, don't make good fodder because they usually get confused/held/charmed, they last little time, they fill precious medium level slots and there're very few of them till very high levels, when you don't need them anymore; I think there should be more of them at earlier levels, like start with 2 monsters and add one every casterlevel up to the 5 max.

 

Summon shadows can't really be a level 6 spell, they are as much pathetical as the old carrion crawder ( just see what you have availabe one level later ); shadow fiends or even wraiths ftw.

 

Wyverns look like glass cannons, something to engage the enemy with after the first line hit; having them added at the druid spell selection would make sense and add flavour too; same for the spider spawns.

 

Elementals proved to be simply perfect; fair powerful and with good immunities but short lasting and a chance to not show up, with the upgrade at 15 for the level 6 spell, all fine. Btw, when you have lesser elementals there's no point in summoning ogres and when you have medium elementals there is no point in summoning shadows and wyverns

 

Djinni and efreeti: they are idiots when they turn hostile after being hit by one of their own spells, but you said that feature will be removed so we'll see; the most problematic thing is that they share the same level of mordenkainen swords that are 'the' summon, and I think those swords need a good nerf. Their thac0(2)/damage(5d4+4?) along their absolute immunities are too good, let them have a more tank-ish role, while Genies should be be the aggressive summons. One more attack to the Djinni seems reasonable, I'm more concerned about their very high ( bad ) saves.

[Raiken]

What role can Wyverns play? The ability to make them "fly", or go over some solid areas would be cool, but AFAIK impossible.

 

Icen

 

Beyond suggesting an idea of summons having 'roles', I hadn't thought about one specifically. Perhaps just the fact they have a deadly poison would make them a good choice (to poison and interrupt spellcasters for instance, but then you have nishruu who deal with them better), but at level 6 you have a lot of summons to choose from and making them more appealing than elementals would be tough. I am assuming the wyverns immunity to web, grease and entangle is to simulate their ability to fly over them?

 

As Raj says, many of the monster summoning spells are very bad. Infact what I did as an experiment a long time ago was to turn monster/animal summoning 1,2 and 3 into level 1, 2 and 3 spells. I never tested it to any degree (I think this was in IWD) but reckon they'll be more effective when used at lower levels. Also, I recall in BG1 you could summon far more and they put a limit on it in BG2?

 

I only suggested level based summons, simply because many offensive and defensive spells usually get more powerful as the caster levels up. Only animate dead and spider spawn do the same thing. It's just that with some of the weaker summoning spells they aren't always good at the earliest level you can cast them and they get worse as the game goes on. No good having a longer duration on a summoned creature that isn't very good, and it's probably worse using something like SCSII as the AI will ignore the weak cannon fodder entirely.

 

I suppose the question is do people use all of the different summons, or do they only use a select few simply because in plain BG2 there aren't many that are decent? Given how many summoning spells there are its a lot of work to make them all effective.

[Demivrgvs]

Animate Dead

I don't use summons a lot but I remember the summon undeads being fair decent before level 15 when duoing with viconia, mostly because the cheap fodder skeletons were confusing the enemy and blocking the path, but their damage is abysmal; while it's fine for level 3 divine, I woudn't waste a level 5 arcane slot before level 15.

I really don't like too that mages get the very same spell but as a 5th level spell instead of a 3rd (2 levels are really too much of a difference imo). What about making the arcane version slightly different? We may use ghoul, ghasts, or mummies instead of skeletons, and we may think about replacing the Skeletal Warrior with a Mummy Lord (though perhaps it actually is a too powerful creature).

 

Monster Summoning spells

The worst summoning spells are the monster summoning ones: Hobgoblins/Gnolls/Ogres, unlike the little skeletons, don't make good fodder because they usually get confused/held/charmed, they last little time, they fill precious medium level slots and there're very few of them till very high levels, when you don't need them anymore; I think there should be more of them at earlier levels, like start with 2 monsters and add one every casterlevel up to the 5 max.

I'll think about "incresing their number" at lower levels. After that my first idea was to provide a sort of leader at higher levels (e.g. Hobgoblin Priest, Flind, and Ogre Mage respectively).

 

The problem when dealing with summons is that they may appear weak sometimes, but you really shouldn't expect a few of these spells to win a tough battle. Does a single Chain Lightning finish off multiple enemies? Rarely, and Monster Summoning III shouldn't be able to be more effective than a single Chain Lightning.

 

Elementals

Ah, I didn't realise the air elementals moved quicker now (as I've been going based on stats on the forum), so I can see that giving them something different over the other two elementals. Though you say they have the best THACO of the three elementals, on paper they have the same THACO as earth elementals. Is the actual THACO in game lower due to stats?

No, stats are already considered to determine thac0, damage, hit points and so on, else comparing the creatures would be a pain for most players. Air elementals still have the best thac0, earth elemental have it too, but they have much worse AC (3 less than the respective air elemental), and they also are much slower than the other elementals, especially compared to air ones.

 

Elementals proved to be simply perfect; fair powerful and with good immunities but short lasting and a chance to not show up, with the upgrade at 15 for the level 6 spell, all fine.

 

Invisible Stalker

I really like the idea of the invisible stalker hiding in shadows and backstabbing. Could it be possible for the players to control the backstabbing manually too? If it being permanently invisible is making it too effective now and it can't survive without it, then perhaps your backstabbing idea will give it a different role from other level 6 summons. It probably wouldn't need much in the way of a backstab multiplier, say x2 or at most x3. Also seen as you can't hide in shadows in sight of enemies I'm assuming it will need some means to go invisible after it attacks?

Yes, x2 or x3 would be more than enough imo (as a 8th level stalker or thief respectively). Regarding the invisibility I can make its script a unique one, with something like "invisibility every 5-6 rounds", and you could manually control the creature and hide in shadows out of enemy's sight.

 

P.S SR's custom scripts can be enabled and disabled in-game if you were asking for that.

 

Summon Shadow

Summon shadows can't really be a level 6 spell, they are as much pathetical as the old carrion crawder ( just see what you have availabe one level later ); shadow fiends or even wraiths ftw.

Have you tested them in-game? In theory they have double hit points due to 50% physiscal resistance, deal cold damage, and (I've just noticed it wasn't documented) their touch drains target's strength. They shouldn't be that bad, but I agree thay need some improvement.

 

I think I'll increase their number, and at higher levels I may probably improve them, or replace them with a slightly more powerful creature type like a spectre (which drains levels instead of strength).

 

Summon Wyvern

Wyverns look like glass cannons, something to engage the enemy with after the first line hit; having them added at the druid spell selection would make sense and add flavour too; same for the spider spawns.

Druids have both Animal summoning and Call Woodland Beings at 4th level, thus Spider Spawn isn't too necessary, though I think it makes an excellent additionl spell for Avengers. Some goes for Summon Wyvern, as druids have Animal summoning and Conjure Elementals as 6th level spells. Making the Wyvern shine against elementals is going to be difficult.

 

Genies

Djinni and efreeti: they are idiots when they turn hostile after being hit by one of their own spells, but you said that feature will be removed so we'll see; the most problematic thing is that they share the same level of mordenkainen swords that are 'the' summon, and I think those swords need a good nerf. Their thac0(2)/damage(5d4+4?) along their absolute immunities are too good, let them have a more tank-ish role, while Genies should be be the aggressive summons. One more attack to the Djinni seems reasonable, I'm more concerned about their very high ( bad ) saves.

Have you tried them even with V2's gaseous form ability? In theory that should almost double they staying power.

[Raj]

Animate Dead

What about making the arcane version slightly different? We may use ghoul, ghasts, or mummies instead of skeletons, and we may think about replacing the Skeletal Warrior with a Mummy Lord (though perhaps it actually is a too powerful creature).

lol, I wrote the same thing then edited that out thinking ''bah, thats asking too much work for just one spell''. ghasts or mists seems fine.

Monster Summoning spells

The problem when dealing with summons is that they may appear weak sometimes, but you really shouldn't expect a few of these spells to win a tough battle. Does a single Chain Lightning finish off multiple enemies? Rarely, and this means Monster Summoning III shouldn't be able to be more effective than a single Chain Lightning.

Let alone the fact Monster Summoning III is level 5 and Chain Lighting is level 6 , I'd compare the ogres to the lesser elementals, even 2 ogres vs 1 lesser elemental, or 3 ogres vs 1 skeleton warrior, I know that given the choice I won't summon the ogres. They automatically fail vs chaos, and have poor saves and no immunities vs everything else mages throw at them; hitpoints and number are the only things they are better compared to summons of the same level but in game they go down faster. Not-humanoid summons simply have much better innate abilities/resistances. Lowering the spell level for monster summoning spells would raise the appeal for bg1, while for bg2 players might benefit the most from a increased number of summons to fill the fodder role.

Summon Shadow

Have you tested them in-game? In theory they have double hit points due to 50% physiscal resistance, deal cold damage and (I've just noticed it wasn't documented) their touch drains target's strength.

I think I'll increase their number, and at higher levels I may probably improve them, or replace them with a slightly more powerful creature type like a spectre (which drains levels instead of strength).

Didn't test extensively but I remember they simply weren't able to hit/damage enemies, and being level 6 slots precious I decided skeleton warriors were outmaching them. Both your improvments ideas sound good.

Genies

Have you tried them even with V2's gaseous form ability? In theory that should almost double they staying power.

Main issue is they are stunned/charmed/scared/slowed/raped in a fraction of round by every beholder/illithid/fiend, and against simple fighters the mord swords do a better tanking job. Genies are nicer than swords to fight mages, but they have to survive the initial chaos/confusion and in the fight it's easy to have them go hostile.

[Guest D. U. Bertie]

This is a great discussion. I don't really have much to add because I'm not familiar enough with the game to be able to comment on balance issues, but I would very much like to see variety in what's summoned by a spell e.g. new and tougher creatures being summoned as the caster gains levels.

 

What sort of stats would a Mummy Lord have? Sounds tasty! Ah, and would the summoning cap removal component from D0Tweaks work with SR? I hate having the number of summons restricted (although I appreciate that I'll have to exercise some control to keep battles balanced).

[Demivrgvs]

Animate Dead

lol, I wrote the same thing then edited that out thinking ''bah, thats asking too much work for just one spell''. ghasts or mists seems fine.

Yeah it's a good amount of work. Mists would probably fit better the 6th level version of this spell, Summon Shadow.

 

What sort of stats would a Mummy Lord have? Sounds tasty! Ah, and would the summoning cap removal component from D0Tweaks work with SR? I hate having the number of summons restricted (although I appreciate that I'll have to exercise some control to keep battles balanced).

A Mummy Lord pratically is a greater mummy with cleric's spells, very nasty.

 

I don't remember how the summoning cap removal works, but it shouldn't conflict. Does anyone know about it?

Anyway, from a roleplaying point of view I hate the cap, but for gameplay point of view I think it's really necessary for balance purposes.

 

Monster Summoning spells

Let alone the fact Monster Summoning III is level 5 and Chain Lighting is level 6 , I'd compare the ogres to the lesser elementals, even 2 ogres vs 1 lesser elemental, or 3 ogres vs 1 skeleton warrior, I know that given the choice I won't summon the ogres. They automatically fail vs chaos, and have poor saves and no immunities vs everything else mages throw at them; hitpoints and number are the only things they are better compared to summons of the same level but in game they go down faster. Not-humanoid summons simply have much better innate abilities/resistances.

Speaking of that, I'm going to add the ability to enrage at least once to Ogre Berserkers.

 

Genies

Main issue is they are stunned/charmed/scared/slowed/raped in a fraction of round by every beholder/illithid/fiend, and against simple fighters the mord swords do a better tanking job. Genies are nicer than swords to fight mages, but they have to survive the initial chaos/confusion and in the fight it's easy to have them go hostile

Mordenkainen though is summoned at pratically full potential, while genies can be further improved with buffs, but I do understand that the former probably is a more appealing summon.

[lac]

All I ever summon are nymphs, and elementals. It's not a matter of making the other summons

more effective, IMO, as a matter that there are other spells at various levels that are just so much more useful, that you memorise them instead.

 

re improved invisible stalkers

 

there is a house in Baldur's Gate -- Degrodel's -- see http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/ar0100.htm where the search for Balduran's Helm and Cloak begin. Can you improve the IS that are summoned without making this encounter too deadly for BG characters? This fight is, in m opinion, the hardest of the non-TotSC fights -- saving the final conflict vs Sarevok. If your fixes are generic fixes that just change the IS worldwide -- then I fear it will make them too tough for BG parties.

 

I love the idea of making the stalkers more stalker-like --- but I am not sure that a BG party

can handle them. I suppose playtesting could tell ....

 

Laura

[Demivrgvs]

I've spent a little time thinking about a general revision of the summoning spells...I won't promise anything for V3 because I'd like to make it come out (I really hope to do it within two weeks), but I promise I'll work to grant players who want to roleplay Conjurers and Necromancer a much entertainable and "affordable" option.

 

1) The first step imo is to standardize the spells' descriptions to allow a more easily comparison and a more easily introduction of new creatures when I've the time to work on them. I think Spider Spawn's template is perfect, and thus for example we may replace the old Animate Dead's description with:

 

Animate Dead (cleric's 3rd level version)

"This spell causes a number of animated skeletons to rise up and serve the priest. The number and type of skeletons that appear depend upon the level of the wizard casting the spell.

 

5th : 1-3 skeletons

7th : 2-4 skeletons

9th : 3-5 skeletons

12th : 5 skeletons

15th+ : 1 skeleton warrior

 

The undead can follow the caster, remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific type of creature) entering the place, etc. The undead remain animated until they are destroyed in combat, 8 hours pass, or are turned. The magic cannot be dispelled."

 

A very hypothetic 5th level version used by mages would be easily modified into something like:

 

"9th : 1-3 ghasts

12th : 1-2 mummies

15th+ : 1 greater mummy"

 

Discussing which and how many creatures to assign is going to be interesting.

 

2) You may have noticed I'm thinking about introducing a "random # of summons" effect. Perhaps it may help me "balancing" this type of spell. For example let's compare the current Monster Summoning III and Conjure Lesser Elemental:

- at 9th level 1 Ogre probably is inferior to 1 Lesser Elemental

- at 12th level 2 Ogres should be equal to 1 Lesser Elemental

- at 15th level 3 Ogres should be tougher than a 1 Lesser Elemental

The results is that MSIII probably starts as a weak spell, and by the time it get stronger the caster will probably don't use these slots for summons anymore, preferring higher level summons instead. You may say: "why not just make it always summon 2 Ogres?". Yes we can, but I wouldn't be able to really claim "2 Ogres = 1 Lesser Elemental". Instead 1-3 Ogres most probably are, sometimes one spell is going to be clearly weaker, sometimes it's going to be more powerful than the other. What do you think about it?

 

All I ever summon are nymphs, and elementals. It's not a matter of making the other summons more effective, IMO, as a matter that there are other spells at various levels that are just so much more useful, that you memorise them instead.

Yeah, but if summons becomes appealing I do think many players would like to try them out instead of the usual spells.

 

Invisible Stalker

there is a house in Baldur's Gate -- Degrodel's -- see http://www.forgottenwars.com/bg1/ar0100.htm where the search for Balduran's Helm and Cloak begin. Can you improve the IS that are summoned without making this encounter too deadly for BG characters? This fight is, in m opinion, the hardest of the non-TotSC fights -- saving the final conflict vs Sarevok. If your fixes are generic fixes that just change the IS worldwide -- then I fear it will make them too tough for BG parties.

 

I love the idea of making the stalkers more stalker-like --- but I am not sure that a BG party can handle them. I suppose playtesting could tell...

I'm not going to make it extremely tougher. This is how it currently is for my tests:

 

Invisible Stalker (8 Hit Dice):

STR 18, DEX 19, CON 14, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 11; AL Neutral

HP 64, AC -2, THAC0 8, Saving Throws 10/12/11/12/13

2 Attacks Per Round, 2d6+4 Crushing Damage (Fist +2)

 

Combat Abilities:

Sneak Attack: can backstab opponents with a x2 multiplier

 

Special Qualities:

Hide in Shadow: 120%

Natural Invisibility: constantly invisible as if affected by an Improved Invisibility spell

Immune to charm, confusion, hold, poison, sleep & stun effects

Slashing, Crushing & Piercing Resistance 20%; Missile Resistance 60%

 

Unless you micromanage it a lot the summon is going to be almost the same as V2's one, but if well managed it can prove to be lethal, and multiple Stalkers should be really fun to use for a massive stealth incursion.

 

P.S In AD&D it had 30% magic resistance.

[DavidW]

A quick thought: SCSII makes the rather minimalist move of moving genies to "gated" rather than "summoned" so that Death Spell et al don't kill them. That was motivated in part by the comparison with Mordy (the main disadvantage of which is that death magic wipes 'em out).

[Demivrgvs]

A quick thought: SCSII makes the rather minimalist move of moving genies to "gated" rather than "summoned" so that Death Spell et al don't kill them. That was motivated in part by the comparison with Mordy (the main disadvantage of which is that death magic wipes 'em out).

That's great, I wanted to do the same thing and the only thing that stopped me was the possibility of the AI wasting Death Spells on them. It's clearly an easy way to make them more appealing, and from a roleplaying point of view it makes more believable their main weakness of turning hostile if hit. A gated creature is disposed in a different way toward the caster compared to a summoned one, summons should be true allies, while gated creatures act slightly more on their will (e.g. Demons generally make a pact with the caster, Celestials work for the caster only if the deeds are good, and so on). Wow, so many nerd's comment just to say I like what you did and that you did it.

 

P.S I'm curios to try if I can manage to make spells like Fireball not turning an Efreeti hostile. If the Efreeti itself is immune to the spell it still turn hostile, but perhaps if I make the very .spl file ineffective against it...we'll see.