Spook

[DavidW]

OK, lower all dragon's saving throws by 6, to avoid silliness from Spook.

 

I try not to do that kind of thing.

[Proteus_za]

I try not to do that kind of thing.

 

Thats why I like your mod (and your attitude towards constructive criticism is admirable)!

 

Still, I would say, if the dragon's saving throws were something ridiculous, like 20, then it should be changed. If they are equivalent to a fairly high level character already, then find another way to protect against this sort of thing.

 

I'd also be receptive to the idea that, dragons being magical and terrifying creatures, are immune to fear just as they are immune to backstab (I wish I could backstab a dragon with the dragon slayer longsword!). I mean, provided its grounded in realism or gameplay and not "oh look, theres still a way to kill dragons besides the way I think they should be killed, I'll stop that".

 

That being said, I dont really think fear should be removed as a tactic completely. Proud and mighty Firkraag, so disdainful of Gorion and his ward, suddenly panics when he realizes he's facing a band of tough and resourceful mercenaries who have access to powerful magic and weapons. That and a cloud of angry insects. He realizes too late that he was overconfident.

[Lemernis]

Just to reemphasize, in order to get the dragon panicked I first cast Greater Malison, Breach, Glitterdust, Lower Resistance at least twice, and Remove Magic.

 

A point not to be overlooked is that you can't possibly defeat an enemy like a dragon to begin with unless some (many) of these types of spells succeed. So if you are able to remove buffs, an opponent is going to be vulnerable to a whole host of spells, not just Spook. Especially when Magic Resistance, in particular, is lowered, I would think.

 

I think in this particular battle all those buff removing spells succeeded (except possibly Remove Magic, that might have been the one exception). However even with many of Fierkrag's protections brought down, he continued to save again and again versus spells like Slow and Chaos. And of course all the while he is wing buffeting, confusing, and Dragon-breathing away at the party. It is still very difficult to remove the dragon's protections in the first place. In an earlier battle, after removing some of his buffs, I managed to succeed with Contagion. But he still wiped out the party nevertheless.

 

I cast Spook because I had literally run out of other higher level spells! I probably just had lucky dice with it.

 

I doubt that Spook is any sort of exploit. If you can strip the dragon of its buffs it is as legitimate a means to a win as any other. And if a dragon's buffs are removed and the party's attacks start getting through, that could indeed be unsettling, reducing morale. In fact one could argue that the cockier a dragon is, the more unnerved he or she might be when the tide turns in the battle--and defeat looks immanent. The party is going to win (else the game won't continue)--so they are indeed fearsome.

 

And those who seek a greater challenge they can install the Smarter Dragons component. I would not want to see a dragon that is already tweaked by Improved General AI and Smarter Mages made any more difficult to defeat except by virtue of Smarter Dragons.

[DavidW]

I doubt that Spook is any sort of exploit. If you can strip the dragon of its buffs it is as legitimate a means to a win as any other. And if a dragon's buffs are removed and the party's attacks start getting through, that could indeed be unsettling, reducing morale. The party is fearsome.

I don't think Spook is an exploit: I think it's a perfectly fair tactic. It's just a tactic I didn't anticipate when writing dragon AI, and which I should probably consider: it might well be that dragons should buff against it.

 

And those who seek a greater challenge they can install the Smarter Dragons component. I would not want to see a dragon that is already tweaked by Improved General AI and Smarter Mages made any more difficult to defeat except by virtue of Smarter Dragons.

 

So far as I recall, Smarter Mages doesn't affect dragons at all. Improved AI affects some dragons (not Firkraag), but it's accidental (Smarter AI enhances the generic melee script, which some dragons use; Smarter Dragons strips that generic script away).

 

Incidentally, Firkraag has a save of 6 against spells, and a Magic Resistance of 65%. So I can see how LR+Malison+Spook is good, especially given the vicious saving throw penalty for Spook.

[Proteus_za]

I didnt realize Spook was so good actually! I mean, a -6 saving throw penalty is quite something. Combine that with doom and greater malison makes it almost a guaranteed win against Firkraag.

 

Poor guy, he deserves to be beaten by better tactics. but it is fun watching him scream like a little girl.

[Lemernis]

Personally, I didn't find it easy to nail him with the spell.

 

It's a perfectly legitimate way to defeat any enemy within BG2's design. And Fierkrag is so damned vain that he, in particular, deserves this fate! Most of the dragons in the game are cocky bastards too.

 

I can understand the sentiment that a dragon succumbing to Spook seems decidedly un-dragonlike. But if any are actually bothered by it, let them install Smarter Dragons! Or I should say, David, if dragons are going to buff with Resist Fear please have them do it via that Smarter Dragons.

[Icendoan]

Personally, I prefer Chromatic Orb + Doom + Greater Malison.

 

1st level instakill!

 

Icen

[Lemernis]

Personally, I prefer Chromatic Orb + Doom + Greater Malison.

 

1st level instakill!

 

Icen

 

Only problem I have with Chromatic Orb: if it petrifies and the target gets chunked by tanks--then no loot drop.

 

But I agree, it's still very gratifying for targets that either don't have a loot drop, or don't have any noteworthy loot.

[Icendoan]

Turn off Gore

 

Icen

[DavidW]

I can understand the sentiment that a dragon succumbing to Spook seems decidedly un-dragonlike. But if any are actually bothered by it, let them install Smarter Dragons! Or I should say, David, if dragons are going to buff with Resist Fear please have them do it via that Smarter Dragons.

 

As I say, SCS only affects dragons via Smarter Dragons.

[Lemernis]

I can understand the sentiment that a dragon succumbing to Spook seems decidedly un-dragonlike. But if any are actually bothered by it, let them install Smarter Dragons! Or I should say, David, if dragons are going to buff with Resist Fear please have them do it via that Smarter Dragons.

 

As I say, SCS only affects dragons via Smarter Dragons.

 

Ah, right, of course. Thanks!

[Lemernis]

Btw, what level is Fierkrag? I ask because I'm wondering if Remove Magic is wasted on him in chapter 2; which it would be if he's more than 5 levels higher than a party mage early in the game.

[DavidW]

Btw, what level is Fierkrag? I ask because I'm wondering if Remove Magic is wasted on him in chapter 2; which it would be if he's more than 5 levels higher than a party mage early in the game.

 

Twenty-third.

[AzureDrag0n1]

Just a word of warning. Even if they are under the effects of fear they are not completely helpless. I once had my fighter get torn apart by a Firkragg under the effects of spook. It really surprised me.

[erik]

Incidentally, according to the 2nd. ed. PHB, INT 19+ characters/creatures are supposed to be immune to Spook (as it is a first-level illusion spell).

 

Only applies to the named black dragon in TOB, though, the others are INT 17 or less... Firkraag, the shadow dragon, Draconis...

 

Beholder Hive Mothers and probably some high-level mage opposition would also benefit.