Lich in Crooked Crane

[Lemernis]

Having a tough time with the lich in the Crooked Crane.

 

I'm using Pierce Magic, Lower Resistance, Breach, Greater Malison, Doom, and Oracle. The only +4 weapon currently in the party's inventory is the staff of Rynn and the War Hammer +1, +4 vs. giantkin (which description says is always considered + 4 to hit). I can kill the pit fiend pretty easily but I don't seem to be able to bring down the lich's protections, despite repeated castings of the above spells.

 

The highest level arcane caster in the party is Kesley, who can cast level 6 spells. (He knows Pierce Magic and Death Spell).

 

I haven't gone to Watcher's Keep, where I guess i could pick up more +4 weapons. But I really didn't want to do WK until after returning from the Underdark.

 

Here's the party:

 

multiclass Kensai 10-Mage 11 (via SK)

Ariena - Pit Fighter 12

Viconia - Fighter 10-Cleric 11 (via L1NPCs)

Kelsey - Sorcerer 13

Kido - Jester 15

Nalia - Thief 16 (via L1NPCs)

 

Any suggestions?

 

My SCSII setup:

 

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #1000 // Detectable spells and effects (required for most other components): v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2070 // Blade Barrier and Globe of Blades only affect hostile creatures: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2090 // Make Power-Word: Blind single-target: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4010 // Make Freedom scrolls available earlier: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4020 // Make Watchers' Keep accessible between SoA and ToB: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #4030 // Retrieve Dropped Items from Hell: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #5010 // Remove animation from the Cloak of Mirroring (leave it for other spells and effects that use the same graphic): v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #5020 // Move Boo into Minsc's pack: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6000 // Smarter general AI: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6010 // Better calls for help: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6020 // Potions for NPCs -> All unused potions on dead enemies are retrievable by the party: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6152 // Smarter Mages -> Mages never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #6162 // Smarter Priests -> Priests never cast short-duration spells instantly at start of combat: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #5000 // Ease-of-use party AI: v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2010 // More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning): v8

~SCSII/SETUP-SCSII.TP2~ #0 #2020 // Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility: v8

[Lemernis]

Bah. I'm just not having any success with these spells. I wanted to get Daystar before heading to the Underdark just to have a decent +4 weapon for the PC, but looks like I'll have to have a go at this one after I get back. (Don't want to head to Watcher's Keep yet.)

 

I'd still be interested hearing what strategies you all would recommend for a party of this level against this lich, though.

 

I don't have Smarter Lichs installed, but is this one upgraded by Smarter General AI and/or Smarter Mages? He seems tougher than the vanilla version.

[Guest guest01]

No idea how to manage the battle, it's indeed an undoable battle at mid-levels with SCSII and very cheesy with this annoying no-return component. (that force that stops you to flee). And from a viewpoint of role-playing it's also problematic. I usually don't rush for the Daystar, first I explore the area, "recognize that there is a lich with a chest", later I come back with a prepared (hasted&) rogue etc.

Is there any possibility to remove the annoying "no-return" component?

In vanilla BG2 it was easy to steal the Daystar, and now with SCSII it becomes harder bacause the ADHW from Chain Contingency maybe kill the thief. I use the Item nerf component from Zyaren's misc. mod, that alters Daystar, and now with SCSII it is the most hardest-to-become weapon in the game and on higher levels the unusuable.

Again is there any possibility to remove the annoying "no-return" component?

[Demivrgvs]

I've noticed you continue to mention the need for +4 weapons...may I ask why? You don't need them to fight the lich itself, and you don't need them to fight pit fiends. And if you think you need them in the Underdark you're wrong again...not a single opponent there is naturally immune to +3 weapons (without IR the Lesser Demon Lord is immune to +4 and vulnerable to +3).

 

No idea how to manage the battle, it's indeed an undoable battle at mid-levels with SCSII and very cheesy with this annoying no-return component. (that force that stops you to flee). And from a viewpoint of role-playing it's also problematic. I usually don't rush for the Daystar, first I explore the area, "recognize that there is a lich with a chest", later I come back with a prepared (hasted&) rogue etc.

Actually I'd say it's very roleplaying to have the lich lock the passage behind the intruders, why should he leave them to flee? I did find cheesy instead to be able to explore the area and stole the Daystar without problem, and I support what DavidW did.

 

In vanilla BG2 it was easy to steal the Daystar, and now with SCSII it becomes harder bacause the ADHW from Chain Contingency maybe kill the thief. I use the Item nerf component from Zyaren's misc. mod, that alters Daystar, and now with SCSII it is the most hardest-to-become weapon in the game and on higher levels the unusuable.

I know I'm biased on this matter, but I may suggest you to take a look at Item Revisions if you want an alternate way to nerf some items and rebalance others. I actually didn't nerf Daystat though, exactly because I take SCS into account and I consider it a quite excellent reward for a tough fight.

[Jarno Mikkola]

I'm using Pierce Magic, Lower Resistance, Breach, Greater Malison, Doom, and Oracle.

The lich is immune to Doom, and should be to Oracle too, as they are immune to all 5th and lower level spells, expect Breach.

 

I've noticed you continue to mention the need for +4 weapons...may I ask why? You don't need them to fight the lich itself, and you don't need them to fight pit fiends. And if you think you need them in the Underdark you're wrong again...not a single opponent there is naturally immune to +3 weapons (without IR the Lesser Demon Lord is immune to +4 and vulnerable to +3).

But the Lich isn't, in it's normal Mantle...

 

Actually I'd say it's very roleplaying to have the lich lock the passage behind the intruders, why should he leave them to flee?

Well, the area is kinda small, and the characters should be safe in the cellar from the firestorm, but of course they are not, but the tavern above sure is...

 

exactly because I take SCSII into account and I consider it a quite excellent reward for a tough fight.

Right?

[Lemernis]

I've noticed you continue to mention the need for +4 weapons...may I ask why? You don't need them to fight the lich itself, and you don't need them to fight pit fiends. And if you think you need them in the Underdark you're wrong again...not a single opponent there is naturally immune to +3 weapons (without IR the Lesser Demon Lord is immune to +4 and vulnerable to +3).

 

I think Kangaxx requires +4 weapons to hit... That's what I'm recalling, anyway.

 

I had hoped to try to complete all the major quests in Athkatla before going to the Underdark. Except for the first trip through Bodhi's lair, and the quests of joinable NPCs not in the party, the only Athkatlan opponents I have left now are the liches--the one in the Crooked Crane, Kangaxx, and the Twisted Rune.

 

In a similar vein, I'd also prefer to complete Watcher's Keep before leaving for Spellhold. But WK's final battle is just too hard for a Chapter 2 party. In my previous runthrough I managed to do it, but only by virtue of laying a boatload of Skulltraps to defeat Demogorgon. It took many, many reloads to guide him into the traps for this tactic to succeed. Very painstaking (not to mention cheesey). And isn't how I want to get the win regardless.

 

This raises a larger issue: One of the things that doesn't sit well from a roleplaying perspective for BG2 is that in order to complete all the quests (and then get the most fun out of the game) the typical heroic type of PC isn't behaving properly in two important respects:

 

1) not acting as quickly as possible to try to rescue Imoen; once you got the 15,000 gold together, if you feel compelled to rescue Immy you should leave then

 

2) given the great urgency to save Suldanesselar from it's immediate peril, at that point in the game to trapse off and adventure in a dungeon (Watcher's Keep) is downright irresponsible for a heroic type.

 

So... a suggestion for a mod component: If the amount of gold that Galen or Bodhi needs is more on the order of around 150,000-200,000 gp then for those that like to complete every Chapter 2 sidequest the roleplay would be better. A much larger sum would require completing all the sidequests before leaving for Spellhold (perhaps even selling off equipment that would normally be carried around just in case it's needed). A mod component that does this would also need to nerf Demogorgon somewhat so that he's defeatable in Chapter 2.

 

I'm not sure what the revised amount should ideally be for the Shadow Thieves or Bodhi to help the PC find Imoen. It could be calculated what all the quest rewards in gold and loot comes to for completing every quest in the countrside, Athkatla, and Watcher's Keep. Factor in one stronghold quest (average the financial gain for each class). Ditto this approach for five NPC quests--just factor in an average sum for whatever wealth you come away with for completing the quests for 5 NPCs. But anyway, the total figure should be high enough that you'll need to complete nearly all sidequests and sell off a good portion of loot.

[Lemernis]

I'm using Pierce Magic, Lower Resistance, Breach, Greater Malison, Doom, and Oracle.

The lich is immune to Doom, and should be to Oracle too, as they are immune to all 5th and lower level spells, expect Breach.

 

Thanks. Okay, so only Pierce Magic and Breach are doing anything. Oracle does seem to be working sometimes, though--I guess by virtue of component 2020?

 

Actually I'd say it's very roleplaying to have the lich lock the passage behind the intruders, why should he leave them to flee?.

 

FWIW, I agree.

[Lemernis]

Btw, I generalized what I remembered about Kangaxx to the other liches. Good to know the others can be hit by +3 weapons. But what spell is this lich casting that has my party members complaining that they're unable to hit him with +3's? It's not Mantle, because + 3 should hit Mantle. If it's Protection from Magical Weapons then I should be able to hit him with non-enchanted weapons, right?

 

***

 

Edit: Okay, it is indeed PfMW. I'm able to hit with unenchanted weapons.

 

So I think I should be able to win this fight with Kelsey casting Piece Magic and Breach; the PC can cast Oracle (which does often work, as the lich doesn't always cast SI:D); and unenchanted +1 or +2 weapons in the hands of PC, Ariena, and Viconia. Plus maybe scrolls of Protection from Undead and Magic, or maybe Potions of Magic Protection.

 

I have a couple very minor quests still left in Athkatla, so I'll do those then give this another go in a bit and see how I do.

[erik]

This raises a larger issue: One of the things that doesn't sit well from a roleplaying perspective for BG2 is that in order to complete all the quests (and then get the most fun out of the game)

 

I question the "get the most fun out of the game" part. Do you also multiromance? Multistronghold? Complete quests for both sides, where possible? (rhetorical question)

 

There really is no need to be able to do all quests with all characters, every time. I'll even say that it limits replayability, by taking away hard choices (do that or that, bah, who cares, I'll just do both).

 

And you _have_ noticed the existing SCSII component to increase asking price for the thieves, right? To at least 100000, as far as I can remember...

[Lemernis]

This raises a larger issue: One of the things that doesn't sit well from a roleplaying perspective for BG2 is that in order to complete all the quests (and then get the most fun out of the game)

 

I question the "get the most fun out of the game" part. Do you also multiromance? Multistronghold? Complete quests for both sides, where possible? (rhetorical question)

 

There really is no need to be able to do all quests with all characters, every time. I'll even say that it limits replayability, by taking away hard choices (do that or that, bah, who cares, I'll just do both).

 

And you _have_ noticed the existing SCSII component to increase asking price for the thieves, right? To at least 100000, as far as I can remember...

 

Right, don't take my statement too much to the letter, lol. I didn't mean to suggest that doing most (if not all) of the Chapter 2 sidequests is the only way to 'get the most out of the game'. Multiple romances and multiple strongholds also add to the experience, sure enough. I don't disagree with that.

 

I didn't notice that there's a component whereby thieves can be required to pay up to 100,000. But I would suggest broadening that component to unrestrict it class-wise, and offer the option to select a number of different amounts: 50,000, 75,000, 100,000, 125,000, 150,00, 175,000, 200,000. Then, regardless of class, those who wish to complete most Chapter 2 quests and Watcher's Keep before leaving for Spellhold can have a roleplaying experience that isn't disconnected from the rest of the story. My emphasis is on having the story make better sense for those who like to sidequest a lot when the game is still very non-linear in Chapter 2.

 

And to reemphasize, doing Watcher's Keep when you're supposed to save Suldanesselar from imminent destruction just doesn't make sense. Ideally, in terms of the plotline, Watcher's Keep really belongs at the end of Chapter 2 imvho. In terms of the challenge it poses at that stage in the game, it's tough but still doable.

 

Like I said though, it's really difficult to defeat Demogorgon in Chapter 2. I mean, there probably are ways to (legitimately) defeat him then. But IIRC it's really tough until you get some rather high level spells. Demogorgon doesn't necessarily have to be nerfed for such a component. But I would hope there are at least several good strategies for a Chapter 2 party to be able to defeat him without resorting to Skulltraps!

[Lemernis]

Okay, I'm realizing I just have to take my time, relax, and analyze what enemies are doing and how to counter it. To study up on the spells being used by SCSII spellcasters and figure out how to counter them.

 

This lich is actually not that hard to take down. I just had to wait until his Contingencies fire, then cast Pierce magic and Breach, then attack with non-enchanted weapons. He'll often get Time Stop off, and then it's really rough going, since he casts it about three times in succession. But a certain small percentage of the time he gets beaten down too badly to get the first Time Stop off, and he summons a Mord's Sword instead. That's when he's vulnerable.

[Leomar]

And to reemphasize, doing Watcher's Keep when you're supposed to save Suldanesselar from imminent destruction just doesn't make sense. Ideally, in terms of the plotline, Watcher's Keep really belongs at the end of Chapter 2 imvho. In terms of the challenge it poses at that stage in the game, it's tough but still doable.

 

Like I said though, it's really difficult to defeat Demogorgon in Chapter 2. I mean, there probably are ways to (legitimately) defeat him then. But IIRC it's really tough until you get some rather high level spells. Demogorgon doesn't necessarily have to be nerfed for such a component. But I would hope there are at least several good strategies for a Chapter 2 party to be able to defeat him without resorting to Skulltraps!

Have you seen this SCSII component:

 

Make Watchers' Keep accessible between SoA and ToB

 

In roleplaying terms, the natural time to explore Watchers' Keep is between the end of Shadows of Amn and the start of Throne of Bhaal. Before chapter 4 you're probably too weak; in chapters 6 and 7 of SoA you're in a desperate race against time; in ToB, the way the start works makes it difficult not to take random time off from urgent business to explore Watchers' Keep.

 

This component moves the start location of Throne of Bhaal to Watchers' Keep, so that you're moved there immediately after the end of SoA. You can then explore WK to your heart's content. When you want to start ToB, just leave WK via the world map. You can still return to WK after leaving, and you can still explore it in SoA if you prefer to.

 

Greetings Leomar

[Lemernis]

And to reemphasize, doing Watcher's Keep when you're supposed to save Suldanesselar from imminent destruction just doesn't make sense. Ideally, in terms of the plotline, Watcher's Keep really belongs at the end of Chapter 2 imvho. In terms of the challenge it poses at that stage in the game, it's tough but still doable.

 

Like I said though, it's really difficult to defeat Demogorgon in Chapter 2. I mean, there probably are ways to (legitimately) defeat him then. But IIRC it's really tough until you get some rather high level spells. Demogorgon doesn't necessarily have to be nerfed for such a component. But I would hope there are at least several good strategies for a Chapter 2 party to be able to defeat him without resorting to Skulltraps!

Have you seen this SCSII component:

 

Make Watchers' Keep accessible between SoA and ToB

 

In roleplaying terms, the natural time to explore Watchers' Keep is between the end of Shadows of Amn and the start of Throne of Bhaal. Before chapter 4 you're probably too weak; in chapters 6 and 7 of SoA you're in a desperate race against time; in ToB, the way the start works makes it difficult not to take random time off from urgent business to explore Watchers' Keep.

 

This component moves the start location of Throne of Bhaal to Watchers' Keep, so that you're moved there immediately after the end of SoA. You can then explore WK to your heart's content. When you want to start ToB, just leave WK via the world map. You can still return to WK after leaving, and you can still explore it in SoA if you prefer to.

 

Greetings Leomar

 

Thanks, Leomar. Yes, I have that component installed (v.8). I don't recall ever seeing that part about the component moving you to the WK location at the start of ToB. I do recall it making WK available any time in the game--but not that it moved the party there for the start of ToB.

 

Okay, right after the end of SoA may well indeed be the best time to take it on. Although personally I prefer for the game to be as non-linear as possible. That is, I appreciate the fact that you can try it in Chapter 2.

 

I have found that nearly all of Watcher's Keep to be very doable in Chapter 2. (And that's coming from someone who struggles a bit with SCSII's enemy spellcasters. More proficient players should find it easier than I do.) It's only the battle with Demogorgon that becomes the dealbreaker for doing it then. (I don't consider Skulltraps a satisfying win.)

 

I guess a Chapter 2 party could cast higher level spells on Demogorgon from scrolls. I'm not sure if enough (any?) of the spells that work on him are available in Chapter 2, though. (Maybe the Staff of Power completed by the Planar Sphere apprentices in the mage stronghold quest could be tweaked to add some spells that work on demons.)

 

But at any rate, my suggestion for offering a variety of amounts of gold for Galen or Bodhi to help locate Imoen still stands. A player who wants to complete all available Chapter 2 sidequests and try to complete WK in Chapter 2 might select the 200,000 amount, for example. Or a player intending to complete WK at the beginning of ToB, but who still wants to do all (or most of) the Chapter 2 sidequesting, could select the 150,000 amount. Maybe a player who intends on doing all Chapter 2 sidequesting, and multiple strongholds, but is going to save WK until the end of SoA could make the amount 175,000. Etc. Whatever the best figures may be, that's the basic idea. It is then customizeable according to the player's basic approach to sidequesting.

 

***

 

Oh, also--I found the following at Game Banshee under the strategy guides section. It actually does make good roleplaying sense:

 

Seal Him Up

 

I must be the only person who did not kill Demogorgon. My PC (19th lvl paladin) remembered being told by the Vigils not to destroy the Imprisoned One so when he stepped into the final level of Watcher's Keep, he spoke with Demogorgon to try and gather information as to why. While he sensed evil in nearly every pore of his body, he did not sense deception when Demogorgon revealed that the Vigils were not quite truthful in their claims and that my PC was being played for a patsy. When he returned to the Vigils and told the them that the Imprisoned One had been destroyed (when, in fact, he hadn't been), they panicked and went to investigate. Lying to them wasn't a very honorable thing to do but my PC held on to the theory that if his word not to destroy the Imprisoned One was good enough for the Vigils, then his word to Demogorgon to lie to the Vigils was equally as good.

 

Once the Vigils left the top of the keep, a ghostly messenger (for lack of a better word) of Helm appeared and apologized for my being led astray by the Vigils. She then told the story of what the Vigils' charge was supposed to be and how these particular ones failed in the eyes of Helm. She gave me 3 options: walk away, go down & assist them, or read the real scroll (which would seal the keep and maintain Demogorgon's imprisonment). After seeking counsel from the rest of his party, the answer became crystal clear. While my PC was wronged into breaking all the seals to the keep, he was obligated to right the wrong for the sake of all Faerun. He read the real scroll which resealed the keep and prayed, albeit briefly, for those inside. The messenger again apologized on behalf of Helm and vanished. I don't recall how much experience each party member received, but it did level up a few of them. The party's reputation did not suffer nor did any alignments.

 

Submitted By: Elrin Britestar

 

So there is a way to complete WK in Chapter 2 without having to fight Demogorgon that is actually good RP, and perhaps without sacrificing a great deal of XP that might otherwise be gained from killing him.