Revised Grandmastery

[Guest Guest]

The jump from 3* to 4* is now really big, don't you think? Better than going from 4* to 5* I reckon. I always though that most people considered "True" Grandmastery overpowered, and yet your new version is practically the same at 4* and 5*.

 

Is 4* = 3 3 3/2 and 5* = 3 4 2 really that bad?

[Guest Guest]

Yeah, the way things are now, you may as well just use "True" Grandmastery instead, as your new version is far too similar. I can't remember what v1 looked like, but I'm sure it provided a much better balance between "Vanilla" and "True".

[Demivrgvs]

The jump from 3* to 4* is now really big, don't you think? Better than going from 4* to 5* I reckon. I always though that most people considered "True" Grandmastery overpowered, and yet your new version is practically the same at 4* and 5*.

 

Is 4* = 3 3 3/2 and 5* = 3 4 2 really that bad?

Yeah, the way things are now, you may as well just use "True" Grandmastery instead, as your new version is far too similar. I can't remember what v1 looked like, but I'm sure it provided a much better balance between "Vanilla" and "True".

Are you two different guests? Anyway, let me try to sort things out.

 

First of all, I do think the main (if not the only) concern about True Grandmastery has always been the +1/2 attack per round which wasn't present in PnP.

 

Secondly, the jump from 3* to 4* is exactly the same from 1* to 2* now and I'll try to explain why (+1 damage, +1/2 apr and -2 speed) is quite better than (+1 hit, +2 damage).

 

The reason is that +1/2 attack per round means you have more chances to properly hit your target in the same round (and it does this much better than a +1 to thac0, especially if you already have a good thac0 and would probably hit the target anyway), giving you more chances in less time to disrupt spellcasting and to inflict damage (especially at higher levels, to hit one more time means a lot, as taking into account all the bonuses your character probably have and the powerful items available in BG in a single hit you're probably goign to inflict more than 10-15 points of damage and any magical effect the weapon may have).

 

Thus even if the end result seems very similar to True Grandmastery, the Revised table is instead quite more weak, simply because the +1/2 apr is an outstanding feature.

 

Last but not least, the end result was not the only aim on this table, I also wanted to create a more gradual progression, and to nerf the currently too noticeable jump from 1* to 2*.

[Guest Guest]

Same guest, just posted too quickly and wanted to add more thoughts.

 

I'm not convinced that -2 to attack speed will make a huge deal of difference (don't most really good magical weapons have really low speeds anyway), but I suppose I've underestimated how useful an extra half attack per round is. I suppose what bothered me the most was the difference between 3* and 4*, but your explanation seems sound.

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain things to me.

[Demivrgvs]

I'm not convinced that -2 to attack speed will make a huge deal of difference (don't most really good magical weapons have really low speeds anyway), but I suppose I've underestimated how useful an extra half attack per round is. I suppose what bothered me the most was the difference between 3* and 4*, but your explanation seems sound.

Yeah, Speed Factor surely isn't what makes the difference, I mentioned it mainly for the sake of completness, but it's still better than nothing.

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain things to me.

You're welcome.

[Andrea C.]

Do I understand correctly that your revised Grandmastery is currently as close to PnP as BG2 gets? And how do the various slots differ from PnP rules?

 

-Thanks

[Jarno Mikkola]

Do I understand correctly that your revised Grandmastery is currently as close to PnP as BG2 gets? And how do the various slots differ from PnP rules?

No, the BG2Tweakpack has closer, as it should be exactly the same as in PnP... with the jump from 1.5 to 2.5... on grand mastery.

[Andrea C.]

No, the BG2Tweakpack has closer, as it should be exactly the same as in PnP

 

Does that apply to all slots in the proficiency progression? Or, in other words, does the Tweakpack fix the entire weapon proficiency progression so that it looks exactly the same as in PnP?

 

-Thanks

[Demivrgvs]

No, the BG2Tweakpack has closer, as it should be exactly the same as in PnP

Does that apply to all slots in the proficiency progression? Or, in other words, does the Tweakpack fix the entire weapon proficiency progression so that it looks exactly the same as in PnP?

Actually I'm almost sure there was no jump from +0.5 to +1.5 apr in PnP.

 

Both tables are quite similar to PnP but neither of them is identical to it.

[DrAzTiK]

ploup,

 

Should it be possible to build a component witch give Grandmastery +++++ to all enemy fighters ? I mean of course only true fighters and kits. (and only if level 7+)

 

Even with SCSII, fighters remain a bit weak. This component could make some fight a bit tought. The fact is I suspect that many many vanilla true fighters have only ++ in profenciencies.

 

If it's not too much difficult to code, I think it could be interessing

[yarpen]

I'm not sure about this. Many creatures have their ApR already fixed in their .cre file so adding grandmastery would be megaoverpowered - it needs a lot more work than you think.

[Jarno Mikkola]

Should it be possible to build a component witch give Grandmastery +++++ to all enemy fighters ? I mean of course only true fighters and kits. (and only if level 7+)

It can be done, but searching the right kind of parameters on how to do the task can be a bit hard...

 

Say you wish them to be enemies, or neutral as well?

+NPCs or not? It can be hard to code the Neutrals without the NPCs, but I should have a solution that works +50% of times...

How about the Weapon Styles?

You do know that some of the creatures have their own items that have special proffs?

How you wish to manage the attacks per rounds?

What about the Rangers, Barbarians, Paladins? 2?

What about the Multi Classes? Same 5 would be easiest to code.

I could try to make one for you...

 

I'm not sure about this. Many creatures have their ApR already fixed in their .cre file so adding grandmastery would be megaoverpowered - it needs a lot more work than you think.

Yeah, for example the Mind Flayers have ApR of 4.

[DrAzTiK]

Well, I would like to set +++++ for true fighters. (and true fighters kit). But only if of course the ApR is not already fixed (unfortunately, I am afraid this horrible situation appears ofen...)

 

Neutral NPC who are intended to become hostil should be fixed too imo.

 

For multi classes and paladin, rangers, barbarians , I don't want more than ++ of course !

 

Weapon could also be rationalized, but only if ApE is not also already fixed.

In fact, the best could be to do something who could enjoy everybody, not only me.

 

Thanks a lot Jarno . If you think it's too boring to code or not really profitable, don't annoy yoursel with that.

 

The fact is I also wonder now if some others vanilla"tweaks" like a fixed ApR are not usual in BG2... (like an arbitrary thac0, AC, hit point...). Erf, all creatures should be fixed !!

[yarpen]

Yeah, for example the Mind Flayers have ApR of 4.

That's not the problem. Thug who wields long sword and have ApR set on 2 in his .cre file is the problem of this component. I think we have to beg Demi for Creatures Revision (I'd love to see his work on it).

[Demivrgvs]

Should it be possible to build a component witch give Grandmastery +++++ to all enemy fighters ? I mean of course only true fighters and kits. (and only if level 7+)

 

Even with SCSII, fighters remain a bit weak. This component could make some fight a bit tought. The fact is I suspect that many many vanilla true fighters have only ++ in profenciencies.

Indeed that would be cool. I stumbled upon this quite a lot of times, for example we recently discussed with Ardanis that adding Flame of the North to Tazok was pointless because that sad boss-like creature has only 1 apr and ++ in 2-handed swords.

 

I suggested to "secretly" raise his profinciency to +++++ (granting him +2 to hit, +3 dmg, and +1 apr), but he correctly pointed out that it didn't seemed something I should do within Item Revisions.

 

As yarpen and Jarno already pointed out I fear it's not a simple task at all to track down what has to be done, and the hardest part imo is that a huge amount of creatures use "custom undroppable weapons", making incredibly difficult to determine what they do and what they should get.

 

P.S Ardanis is doing a great job within his component for IR at removing tons of unused unique and powerful items from the inventories and putting them to good use, and you really can't imagine how many of them were unused.

 

Yeah, for example the Mind Flayers have ApR of 4.

That's not the problem. Thug who wields long sword and have ApR set on 2 in his .cre file is the problem of this component. I think we have to beg Demi for Creatures Revision (I'd love to see his work on it).

I'd love to work on it...but realistically it's kinda hard I'll find the time to work on it. That's why I really hope to see this project go on.