Little question concerning SR

[Guest Aranthys]

Since it modifies the spells descriptions to make sure they're more consistent, is it possible to separate the spell description update & the modification of the spell ?

I'm thinking about (Un)Holy Word : i find its modified version to be too powerfull (All you need is a level 20+ cleric to kill any level 10 creature on sight with a spell that has a 1 casting time)

Unless I'm wrong (?)

 

Is it possible to modify this spell to turn it into a "Gated creature killer" ?

something along "In addition to the spell effects, any gated creature caught in the radius must save vs spell at -4 or be killed".

 

Not sure if this is possible within the engine, but I feel like gated creatures (Demons / Devas / Elementals) are a bit too powerfull, and it should be possible to revoke them using divine spells (Death spells for mages, Revoke spells for Divine casters)

 

If this is not possible, how about something like :

 

The vanilla spells has the following effects :

Less than 4 HD : Death.

Between 4 and 7HD : stunned for 1 turn.

Between 8 and 11HD : slowed for 1 turn / 75% spell failure.

Over 11 HD : Deafened for 1 turn / 50% spell failure.

 

I think that 50% spell failure with no save is actually good enough there.

SCS Demons tend to use it, and if one of my casters is caught in the radius, they're pretty much can't cast for one turn.

Using SCSII, the most dangerous foes are usually casters, beside a few exceptions, so I began to use this spell myself.

 

What are the current problems with the vanilla spell ?

 

One of the biggest problem of this spell is that it only has effects

 

a] On certain alignments

b] On low level creatures (totaly imbalanced against them) and on casters (Pretty powerful against them if they're caught in the radius - 20)

 

If you really want to increase the power of this spell, why not give it a universal part (kinda like sunray & other undead-killer spells) in addition to it's base effect ?

 

Something like :

Holy Word : Heal X hitpoints to all party members / cure them from any confusion spell.

Unholy Word : Deal X magic damage to all ennemies [No save allowed] / affect them with confusion for Y rounds unless they save vs spells at -Z

 

X would be something like "10d4" @ lvl 20 (1d4 per 2 caster level, 10-40 damage dealt / healed)

Y something like 2 or 3 rounds (to prevent the spell to become too powerfull)

Z something like -2 or -4.

 

Those would be worth memorizing, kinda like mass resurrection is mostly worth memorizing for its heal effect and low cast time (since greater restoration is single target only with SCSII).

 

Another (small) request :

It seems like you're going to create some new spells.

Could you please create a low level divine spell that cures confusion ? I feel like this spell is lacking in BGI (Make it a clone of Cure Poison, except the poison immunity effect)

 

I've got to say that i don't really like the spells that are casted base on the difference between caster and ennemy HD.

1] It makes them too powerfull against low levels PCs.

2] It makes them useless for PCs if matched against high level ennemies (SCS ennemies in BG1 comes to mind here).

 

It's one of the biggest problems with remove magic, and I believe you've acknowledged this.

 

For example, the Death spell main effect is to kill summoned creatures.

The added "relative to HD" effect is to kill low level creatures.

 

I think it's the way to go for these kind of spells.

 

Oh, and you've done a great job with your mod, just trying to give a few suggestions here and there, I hope you'll take no offense for this message

 

Any thoughts ?

[Demivrgvs]

Since it modifies the spells descriptions to make sure they're more consistent, is it possible to separate the spell description update & the modification of the spell ?

Ehm...but than you would have an updated description with a non-updated spell...what's the point?

 

(Un)Holy Word

I'm thinking about (Un)Holy Word : i find its modified version to be too powerfull (All you need is a level 20+ cleric to kill any level 10 creature on sight with a spell that has a 1 casting time)

Unless I'm wrong (?)

I made it as per 3rd edition PnP, but it seems some of few feels it to tb too powerful. It's not imo, but it may end up being too powerful anyway because of how BG normally make players face opponents which are quite higher in level than the party.

 

I'd like to point out though that Death Spell is one level lower and does almost the same, it's limited to 8HD characters instead of 10HD, but Death Spell does it for a 12th level spellcaster, (Un)Holy Word does it for a 20th level caster! Another example is fighters Greater Deathblow HLA, which allow them to kill any 12HD creature with a single hit without a save, and it lasts 2 rounds meaning you can potentially kill up to 6-8 creatures imo.

 

That being said, I have to take into account that you're not the only one that consider this spell too powerful, thus I should find someting to do for it.

 

Is it possible to modify this spell to turn it into a "Gated creature killer" ?

something along "In addition to the spell effects, any gated creature caught in the radius must save vs spell at -4 or be killed".

 

Not sure if this is possible within the engine, but I feel like gated creatures (Demons / Devas / Elementals) are a bit too powerfull, and it should be possible to revoke them using divine spells (Death spells for mages, Revoke spells for Divine casters)

I had wanted to implement it for a long time, the only reason I haven't done this yet is because SCSII changes to gated demons make it impossible for me to detect them as "gated creatures", I'll do it as soon as find a way to make it work with SCS.

 

If you really want to increase the power of this spell, why not give it a universal part (kinda like sunray & other undead-killer spells) in addition to it's base effect?

Spell like (Un)Holy Word should really keep their "alignment" unique feature.

 

Another (small) request :

It seems like you're going to create some new spells.

Could you please create a low level divine spell that cures confusion ? I feel like this spell is lacking in BGI (Make it a clone of Cure Poison, except the poison immunity effect)

I'll think about it.

 

Oh, and you've done a great job with your mod, just trying to give a few suggestions here and there, I hope you'll take no offense for this message

Not at all, you're welcome.

[Guest Aranthys]

Ehm...but than you would have an updated description with a non-updated spell...what's the point?

 

Well, I could edit the updated description to match the non-updated spell for example, to correct inconsistances and make sure every spell has the same "Updated Description Feeling"

Well yeah okay this is stupid

 

I made it as per 3rd edition PnP, but it seems some of few feels it to tb too powerful. It's not imo, but it may end up being too powerful anyway because of how BG normally make players face opponents which are quite higher in level than the party.

 

I'd like to point out though that Death Spell is one level lower and does almost the same, it's limited to 8HD characters instead of 10HD, but Death Spell does it for a 12th level spellcaster, (Un)Holy Word does it for a 20th level caster! Another example is fighters Greater Deathblow HLA, which allow them to kill any 12HD creature with a single hit without a save, and it lasts 2 rounds meaning you can potentially kill up to 6-8 creatures imo.

Sure, but Greater Deathblow does not improve with levels, neither does Death spell. Clerics have a low XP requirement for levelling (225k), and it's not unusual for a cleric to reach level 35+ by the end of ToB, making Holy Word a tad Overpowered at this level (You don't face many ennemies with more than 24 HD, and it's an AoE spell, with a large radius, no targeting required and a 1 casting time)

 

Spell like (Un)Holy Word should really keep their "alignment" unique feature.

Well, the Alignment unique feature should be for the additional & powerful effect of the spell.

The universal part would just be there to make sure the spell (for players and ennemies ) is usefull. But i understand why this is a line you don't want to cross.

 

As I said, the main problem I see with this spell is that due to its nature, it becomes MUCH MUCH easier to kill demons with evil / neutral characters than it is with a good aligned party.

And that's mostly due to Unholy Blight / Unholy Word. For example, fighting Drow Clerics with neutral / evil characters makes them so much easier to kill, because your party is not getting obliterated by 3x15d4 damage every round. Additionaly, it seems like SCS AI does not check for alignment before casting the spell... making your ennemies behave anormaly (Why would they keep casting these spells if it has no effect on the party ?)

 

I'll think about it.

Thanks. confusion is one of the few effects that can really be devastating at low level, and has no counter beside having to wait for the end of the duration. And it's available way earlier than Chaotic Command is.

I'm thinking about an effect that cures all of the effects that are prevented by Chaotic Orders. Maybe a level 3 spell (Avaiable to any divine spellcaster)

[Demivrgvs]

(Un)Holy Word

I'd like to point out though that Death Spell is one level lower and does almost the same, it's limited to 8HD characters instead of 10HD, but Death Spell does it for a 12th level spellcaster, (Un)Holy Word does it for a 20th level caster! Another example is fighters Greater Deathblow HLA, which allow them to kill any 12HD creature with a single hit without a save, and it lasts 2 rounds meaning you can potentially kill up to 6-8 creatures imo.

Sure, but Greater Deathblow does not improve with levels, neither does Death spell. Clerics have a low XP requirement for levelling (225k), and it's not unusual for a cleric to reach level 35+ by the end of ToB, making Holy Word a tad Overpowered at this level (You don't face many ennemies with more than 24 HD, and it's an AoE spell, with a large radius, no targeting required and a 1 casting time)

You're missing one thing, spell progression of each and every spell is capped at 20th level, thus (Un)Holy Word can kill "only" characters of up to 10HD, even when the caster is level 40. That is why I mentioned Deathblow, because it is able to insta-kill even more powerful creatures. Death Spell can be casted at 12th level (750.000 XP), while (Un)Holy Word to kill 8HD creatures must be casted by a 18th level caster (2.250.000 XP).

 

Spell like (Un)Holy Word should really keep their "alignment" unique feature.

As I said, the main problem I see with this spell is that due to its nature, it becomes MUCH MUCH easier to kill demons with evil / neutral characters than it is with a good aligned party.

And that's mostly due to Unholy Blight / Unholy Word. For example, fighting Drow Clerics with neutral / evil characters makes them so much easier to kill, because your party is not getting obliterated by 3x15d4 damage every round.

I may agree that neutral characters are somewhat advantaged, and I once thought about making evil aligned spells affect netral creatures too (a few players suggested it, but many didn't liked it), but evil characters are not as advantaged as you say (perhaps a little), because they are indeed immune to unholy spells, but they can't use holy ones themselves, and both Holy Smite and Holy Word are excellent spells.

 

P.S Regarding Unholy Blight, if you have SR installed it's capped at 10d4, and it has been fixed to really deal d4 damage because without SR your 15th level drow cleric is actually dealing 30d2 points of damage!

 

 

"Cure Confusion" spell

I'll think about it.

Thanks. confusion is one of the few effects that can really be devastating at low level, and has no counter beside having to wait for the end of the duration. And it's available way earlier than Chaotic Command is.

I'm thinking about an effect that cures all of the effects that are prevented by Chaotic Orders. Maybe a level 3 spell (Avaiable to any divine spellcaster)

The spell you are suggesting exist in 3rd edition, and it's called Break Enchantment. It would be able to free victims from enchantments (charm, confusion), transmutations (polymorfed creatures), and curses (not much a problem in BG), but it's a 5th level spell, and I do think this spell would need such a high level slot.

[Guest Aranthys]

"[un]holy word"

You're missing one thing, spell progression of each and every spell is capped at 20th level, thus (Un)Holy Word can kill "only" characters of up to 10HD, even when the caster is level 40. That is why I mentioned Deathblow, because it is able to insta-kill even more powerful creatures. Death Spell can be casted at 12th level (750.000 XP), while (Un)Holy Word to kill 8HD creatures must be casted by a 18th level caster (2.250.000 XP).

Allright, if the level-based effect is capped at level 20, then the death effect is not too bad indeed.

On the other hand, i'm concerned about the stunning/slowing part. Is it also capped at level 20 ?

AoE slow/stun for one turn, without save, with a 1 cast time on any lvl 15 creature feels grossly overpowered don't you think ? Against any party worth its salt, it's pretty much the same as a Death spell.

 

I may agree that neutral characters are somewhat advantaged, and I once thought about making evil aligned spells affect netral creatures too (a few players suggested it, but many didn't liked it), but evil characters are not as advantaged as you say (perhaps a little), because they are indeed immune to unholy spells, but they can't use holy ones themselves, and both Holy Smite and Holy Word are excellent spells.

 

P.S Regarding Unholy Blight, if you have SR installed it's capped at 10d4, and it has been fixed to really deal d4 damage because without SR your 15th level drow cleric is actually dealing 30d2 points of damage!

Aye, I forgot about the cap. I don't have SR installed yet, since the french translation is still underway (and i like my installations to be french (Or english, but i would have to illegally download BGI/II for that, or buy it.. but I've already got twice the french original saga, and i'm quite fond of the french voices - Even Anomen is not *that* annoying in french.

But I've been reading a lot about your mod & the spells it modifies, and since i know you're in the process of releasing a new version soon, i thought i could try to give some suggestions.

 

 

"Cure Confusion" spell

The spell you are suggesting exist in 3rd edition, and it's called Break Enchantment. It would be able to free victims from enchantments (charm, confusion), transmutations (polymorfed creatures), and curses (not much a problem in BG), but it's a 5th level spell, and I do think this spell would need such a high level slot.

Well, i'm mostly asking this for balance purpose : There's no way to cure confusion effects except by using dispell / remove magic. And in BGI, with SCS, every caster over level 7 will cast confusion. I think it would improve the gameplay experience to be able to cure confusion effects, instead of praying for your characters to successfully save against it.

As a lvl 3 spell, it still requires a lvl 5+ character, and you have to memorize a spell of the same level as :

- Summon skeleton

- Holy Smite / Unholy Blight

- Remove Magic

 

Moreover, at level 3, we can also find the Cure Paralysis & Remove Curse spells.

I really think it's the ideal spell level for a spell that cures confusion effects.

 

An effect that would be called something like "Mind soothe" ("Apaisement de l'esprit" in french, not totally sure about my translation).

 

As I said, this would mostly be for BG, in BGII confusion effects are less of a problem since you have access to chaotic command.

[DrAzTiK]

Maybe allow "cure disease" (level3) to remove confusion ? (after all confusion is a disease)

[Demivrgvs]

(Un)Holy Word

Ok, I was forgetting that in 2nd edition the secondary effect of (Un)Holy Word was Slow and not Blindness, thus I'll surely restore this for V3, effectively nerfing the spell. Than the only thing which keeps the spell slightly too powerful is the Stun with no save effect, though I still think that if you fight a 20th level caster with a party of 14th- level you'd have to take appropriate precautions (e.g. Chaotic Commands, Free Action, ...).

 

 

"Cure Confusion"

On second thought...I just noticed that Break Enchantment affects 1 creature per caster level in a 30' radius (aka - everyone), thus I had one proposal. As a 1 target only we may allow it to be a 3rd level spell instead of a 5th level one imo. My suggested solution is to "replace" Remove Curse with this spell, which would still remove curses on the target but would also cure charm (I think I managed to have such effect), confusion (what most players asked for) and polymorphed status (not that you're going to face many opponents using Polymorph Other, but it's cool to be able to cure it without a dispel imo). What do you think?

 

P.S I actually like this solution very much, as I always hated how much useless Remove Curse was.

[Salk]

What do you think?

 

P.S I actually like this solution very much, as I always hated how much useless Remove Curse was.

 

Agreed!

 

I also like it because Remove Curse with the latest version of my Cursed Items Revision is practically useless.

[yarpen]

Yay!

But now I have to create appropriate BAM Damn.

[Demivrgvs]

Yay!

But now I have to create appropriate BAM Damn.

Don't worry, I think the original one is fine, concentrate on other ones!

 

Ok, unless someone can find a good reason not to implement Breack Enchantment I'll probably do it within today.

[Dakk]

"Cure Confusion"

On second thought...I just noticed that Break Enchantment affects 1 creature per caster level in a 30' radius (aka - everyone), thus I had one proposal. As a 1 target only we may allow it to be a 3rd level spell instead of a 5th level one imo. My suggested solution is to "replace" Remove Curse with this spell, which would still remove curses on the target but would also cure charm (I think I managed to have such effect), confusion (what most players asked for) and polymorphed status (not that you're going to face many opponents using Polymorph Other, but it's cool to be able to cure it without a dispel imo). What do you think?

 

It's good stuff! Go for it!

 

Regarding Unholy Blight, if you have SR installed it's capped at 10d4, and it has been fixed to really deal d4 damage because without SR your 15th level drow cleric is actually dealing 30d2 points of damage!

So earlier (Un)Holy Blight did ~45 damage and now it's ~25? That's more polite really

 

Regarding HitDice, is it always equivalent to Levels? So 10HD = Level 10? Or am I missing a distinction somewhere (like fighters not gaining HD:s after lvl9, but +3 HP)?

[Demivrgvs]

Unholy Blight

Regarding Unholy Blight, if you have SR installed it's capped at 10d4, and it has been fixed to really deal d4 damage because without SR your 15th level drow cleric is actually dealing 30d2 points of damage!

So earlier (Un)Holy Blight did ~45 damage and now it's ~25? That's more polite really

Yeah, though SR Holy Smite and Unholy Blight now have -2 penalty to their save, thus the chance to take full damage is slightly higher.

 

Regarding HitDice, is it always equivalent to Levels? So 10HD = Level 10? Or am I missing a distinction somewhere (like fighters not gaining HD:s after lvl9, but +3 HP)?

Yeah, a 13th level fighter has 13HD even if he doesn't get d10 hit points per HD anymore.

[Guest Aranthys]

Since it modifies the spells descriptions to make sure they're more consistent, is it possible to separate the spell description update & the modification of the spell ?

Allright, I'm stupid, it's in the Readme.

 

5) Optional - spell descriptions that appear in the game can be altered by editing (with a text editor) one of these files:

Spell_rev\Languages\English\arcane.tra

Spell_rev\Languages\English\divine.tra

[Shaitan]

Cool with Break Enchantment